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Identity and background of Eastern Catholics

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I would say your understanding is wrong. It has been argued on this and other forums but it is generally recognized, aside from simple memorized prayers, neither is that intelligible to modern speakers which is why you see movements to use modern Russian and Greek
Perhaps. I really don't know. But you think the existence of secret prayers is because the laity couldn't understand it? If that's the case then why did St. Justinian talk about it in the 6th century when the people still spoke Koine?
 

Deacon Lance

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Perhaps. I really don't know. But you think the existence of secret prayers is because the laity couldn't understand it? If that's the case then why did St. Justinian talk about it in the 6th century when the people still spoke Koine?
I think the existence of some inaudible prayers was originally to shorten the Liturgy. Looking for justification for that morphed into the idea the laity were not worthy of hearing them. That attitude coupled with the language of the people diverging from the language of the Liturgy there was less impetus to say the prayers aloud as they were less understandable. And that in turn paved the way for further abuse. Take for example the Prayers of Light from Vespers. They each had a specific place but once they became silent they didn’t even say them silently in their proper place and just lumped them together at the beginning of the service.
 
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I think the existence of some inaudible prayers was originally to shorten the Liturgy. Looking for justification for that morphed into the idea the laity were not worthy of hearing them. That attitude coupled with the language of the people diverging from the language of the Liturgy there was less impetus to say the prayers aloud as they were less understandable. And that in turn paved the way for further abuse. Take for example the Prayers of Light from Vespers. They each had a specific place but once they became silent they didn’t even say them silently in their proper place and just lumped them together at the beginning of the service.
So it's an abuse and not an organic development throughout all Christendom?
 
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It is both. Organic does not always equal good. Weeds and cancer are both organic.
The liturgy of the Church is inspired of the Spirit. There can be local errors in practice but the whole Church cannot have an erroneous liturgy. If prayers in secret are bad, then the Church fell into error for 1000 years. That's not to say that it couldn't be a better practice to say them with a loud voice now, but we can't condemn the Church for what is prescribed in the typikon for centuries.
 

Dominika

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I was taught in Balamand that this "secretly" (in fact "mysteriously") means in "sacramental way" as it is special sacramental prayer and of course we do not say that there are only 7 holy mysteries (sacraments).
 

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The liturgy of the Church is inspired of the Spirit. There can be local errors in practice but the whole Church cannot have an erroneous liturgy. If prayers in secret are bad, then the Church fell into error for 1000 years. That's not to say that it couldn't be a better practice to say them with a loud voice now, but we can't condemn the Church for what is prescribed in the typikon for centuries.
I didn’t say we should condemn the Church. We must however strive for the best practice and not be afraid to admit when the Church failed to live up to its calling.
 
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I didn’t say we should condemn the Church. We must however strive for the best practice and not be afraid to admit when the Church failed to live up to its calling.
I agree, I just think saying the secrets are inherently wrong and a canonical abuse is taking it too far. Personally I like the anaphora said aloud.
 

Dominika

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Communion, Ukrainian Greek Catholics (1st photo in Ukraine the 2nd in Poland)




 

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Some more things from Romanian Greek Catholics:

Nuns and guitars at Liturgy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvLeoGz2CHI&t=5280s

Epitaphios

Of course there are more but I think that's enough (at least for now)
I’ve been here several times as it’s only 90 km away from my hometown. One thing, they use different melodies than the orthodox in the same area. But otherwise not too dissimilar from the Orthodox. I’ve certainly seen way worse from Romanian GC.
By comparison this is from the Orthodox cathedral across the plaza ( “Moon church “), :
 
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Wow, quite a difference between the interior of this church and what I've seen in many Ethiopian Orthodox churches.
Most if not all Ethiopian/Eritrean and Coptic Catholic parishes are in borrowed temples of the Latin Church. Sometimes they are sharing the space with a Roman parish, sometimes they have exclusive use but don’t own the building. Being poor and immigrant communities they often lack the money to properly appoint their churches and are also sometime reluctant to do so since they may be told to move with little notice.
 

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Most if not all Ethiopian/Eritrean and Coptic Catholic parishes are in borrowed temples of the Latin Church. Sometimes they are sharing the space with a Roman parish, sometimes they have exclusive use but don’t own the building. Being poor and immigrant communities they often lack the money to properly appoint their churches and are also sometime reluctant to do so since they may be told to move with little notice.
Noted :cool:
 

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☝🏻First Orthodox Scout Liturgy at Philmont Scout Ranch.
 

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That looks like a beautiful Liturgy, Deacon Lance. :)
 

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That looks like a beautiful Liturgy, Deacon Lance. :)
But doesn't look Orthodox. Compare with our Polish Orthodox pilgrimage Liturgy in forest:













And yes, even without bishop it looks much better and Orthodox:

 

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But doesn't look Orthodox. Compare with our Polish Orthodox pilgrimage Liturgy in forest:
Dominika,

That does look quite nice; i think the pilgrims became closer to God through their prayers. I know that it looks like it was a pleasant day out. :)


At the same time, it's not the same. The POC outside liturgy is for all ages (old and young) in a parish; and it's right next to the road (it's pretty clear the icons and tent came there by the van).

The situation Father Deacon Lance presented is at a wilderness area Philmont Scout Ranch*. The participants are young people, as the ranch is for Boy Scouts** on multi-day backpacking trips at the Ranch. In fact, it's possible that liturgy is several km, or maybe even a few hours or days walk on foot from the nearest road.

Anyway, it will inherently not be as big or nice as that POC oudoor liturgy. :)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philmont_Scout_Ranch

** Boy Scouts are the American branch of the international youth organization movement, which I assume you're familiar with but am reposting here anyway.
Polish:
 

Dominika

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Dominika,

That does look quite nice; i think the pilgrims became closer to God through their prayers. I know that it looks like it was a pleasant day out. :)


At the same time, it's not the same. The POC outside liturgy is for all ages (old and young) in a parish; and it's right next to the road (it's pretty clear the icons and tent came there by the van).

The situation Father Deacon Lance presented is at a wilderness area Philmont Scout Ranch*. The participants are young people, as the ranch is for Boy Scouts** on multi-day backpacking trips at the Ranch. In fact, it's possible that liturgy is several km, or maybe even a few hours or days walk on foot from the nearest road.

Anyway, it will inherently not be as big or nice as that POC oudoor liturgy. :)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philmont_Scout_Ranch

** Boy Scouts are the American branch of the international youth organization movement, which I assume you're familiar with but am reposting here anyway.
Polish:
I know perfectly what's skauting, in Polish we call them "harcerze" and there is even group of Polish Orthodox scouts.

Anyway, I mean outdoor Liturgy as general. In photos presented by d. Lance you see from very first glance it's not Orthodox: "a table" that doesn't meet basic requirments for Divine Liturgy and clothes of the believers.

There is Liturgy for this Polish Orthodox scout group:







Source
 

J Michael

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Here and now (well...sometimes...)
Actually, the picture posted by Dn. Lance is of an Orthodox Liturgy. Here's the link from which the picture was taken:

Now, why would Orthodox Fr. Koudoukis celebrate a liturgy that's "not Orthodox" using ""a table" that doesn't meet basic requirments for Divine Liturgy and clothes of the believers."??

They're out in the sticks, camping, after all.

See reply #181 above--Dn. Lance even identifies it as an Orthodox liturgy.

Do I detect a modicum of Polish Orthodox ethnophyletism? :)
 
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Dominika

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Actually, the picture posted by Dn. Lance is of an Orthodox Liturgy. Here's the link from which the picture was taken:

Now, why would Orthodox Fr. Koudoukis celebrate a liturgy that's "not Orthodox" using ""a table" that doesn't meet basic requirments for Divine Liturgy and clothes of the believers."??

They're out in the sticks, camping, after all.

See reply #181 above--Dn. Lance even identifies it as an Orthodox liturgy.
Ok, thanks for the clarification, but for me until I read the news, it didn't look Orthodox ;)

Do I detect a modicum of Polish Orthodox ethnophyletism? :)
Hahaha, hope not :D
 

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Ok, thanks for the clarification, but for me until I read the news, it didn't look Orthodox ;)
So you accuse me of lying about the picture in my post and shrug it off with a wink?
 

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So you accuse me of lying about the picture in my post and shrug it off with a wink?
Just to give Dominika the benefit of the doubt, I think she may not have seen the post where you said it was an Orthodox liturgy, and because you are Byzantine Catholic and because the "table" wasn't as grand as her Polish "table" she may have just assumed (not usually a wise thing to do) that the picture was of a Byzantine Catholic liturgy.

And, even though I put a smiley after my comment about Polish Orthodox ethnophyletism, I was only half joking.

Having said all that, an apology to you wouldn't be go amiss. Just my opinion.
 

Dominika

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So you accuse me of lying about the picture in my post and shrug it off with a wink?
No, absolutly no. Even don't know, why such thought ;)


Just to give Dominika the benefit of the doubt, I think she may not have seen the post where you said it was an Orthodox liturgy, and because you are Byzantine Catholic and because the "table" wasn't as grand as her Polish "table" she may have just assumed (not usually a wise thing to do) that the picture was of a Byzantine Catholic liturgy.
This, plus taking into cosinderation the whole thread itself.
 

Dominika

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Ukrainian Greek Catholic nuns in Poland; they have also "archimandritness" (Ukrainian: Архимандриня - it seems like general of Basilian nuns?...)

Source
 

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Could not any Protestant sect tell this to your Vatican as well?
Don’t know why they would. I have never seen anybody claim Protestant Churches were a bridge.
 

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I live this topic - I worship at a Ukrainian Catholic church Sunday mornings - so here goes.

We share a rite including the Slavonic language and Russian music, and the first seven great church councils. All of Orthodox defined doctrine is true. Byzantine Catholicism is a clunky name for a clunky, temporary solution. Most of them are just nice conservative Novus Ordo Romans with a different Mass, and they want to keep it that way. "We're our own thing so let's latinize away." That attitude's in my own parish and I push back. The non-Byzantine Eastern Catholic churches are very latinized too. Don't try to individually convert, split or replace the Orthodox - that's what the U-word has come to mean; I don't think it applies to me. I'm a papal minimalist and not just because I don't like Pope Francis. I'm like the Orthodox in communion with Rome - don't latinize the rite and muzzle it about Fatima - but I don't attack any Roman teaching. St. Thomas Aquinas was the greatest theologian. With Deacon Lance I respect born members of a church, right or wrong, acting in good faith. The challenge for Rome is to present those Roman teachings all/only in Orthodox terms. I don't know how/am not qualified but it needs doing. I know most here believe it can't be done. I go to the Antiochians for Saturday Vespers.

My take on the Orthodox: too strict, Cyprianic, in ecclesiology/sacramentology so Western baptism is rejected - you can't convince me that the Latin Mass has no grace - but too lax on moral theology: remarriage after divorce, and contraception. I hold to the Catholic belief in a family of ancient churches with valid orders.
 

ialmisry

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but too lax on moral theology: remarriage after divorce[/]
as opposed to the Vatican's Corban factories a/k/a "the marriage tribunal"?
, and contraception.
I have heard enough of Vatican priests and teachers who don't bother with dealing with the "sin" of contraception. The lifting of the ban by the Vatican for nuns in fear of rape during the Yugoslav wars is just another back handed admission of the Orthodox position.
 

ialmisry

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Don’t know why they would. I have never seen anybody claim Protestant Churches were a bridge.
Gloria Tibi Trinitas got part of the answer, but your response is odd, given that your OP was claiming that the so called Vatican sui juris churches were NOT a bridge either.
So again, what Protestant could not tell your Vatican the same thing:
We too have martyrs from WWII. Let me state again we are not a bridge. We know who we are and we will not be defined by you.
especially in view of the Anglican personal ordinariate (with its married clergy oddly outspoken against married clergy and for mandated clerical celibacy).
 

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Gloria Tibi Trinitas got part of the answer, but your response is odd, given that your OP was claiming that the so called Vatican sui juris churches were NOT a bridge either.
So again, what Protestant could not tell your Vatican the same thing:
especially in view of the Anglican personal ordinariate (with its married clergy oddly outspoken against married clergy and for mandated clerical celibacy).
They could, as could Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Jews, or anybody really. It comes down to religious freedom and self-determination.

Please note it was Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos that rejected the metaphor of bridges for Eastern Catholics.
 

ialmisry

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They could, as could Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Jews, or anybody really. It comes down to religious freedom and self-determination.

Please note it was Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos that rejected the metaphor of bridges for Eastern Catholics.
We knew they were bridges to nowhere long before.

Religious freedom and self-determination......"better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

I must confess I never understood the so called "right to exit." Either one exists or one doesn't, and it doesn't depend on the acceptance of others.
 
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