if you believe in Divine simplicity but are still a Trinitarian,you are a modalist.

[muskogee22]

Strict Plotinian divine simplicity makes identity claims 1) The Father is identical to the Divine Essence 2) The Son is identical to the Divine Essence 3) Therefore, the Son is identical to the Father, but Latin dogma states that the Father and Son are not identical. Even if a subject knows an object, then there are three distinctions here, the knower, the knowing and the known. How are the three persons of the Trinity distinct? Is the distinction a rational one? If so, then the distinction is just in the mind of the believer, and thus you have modalism. Is the distinction a real one, if that is the case, then the substances exist independent and separable of each other, and you would have polytheism.

The Thomists agree that Social Trinitarianism can not be true because it would mean that God has parts,so they have developed Latin Trinitarianism wich is basically FSH Modalism.this still isn't Congruent with Plotinus' Divine Simplicity but is a weaker version of Divine Simplicity wich isn't even technically divine simplicity.

I believe that absolute Divine Simplicity can be logically proven wich is why I am not a Trinitarian.

 

[Katechon]

I believe that absolute Divine Simplicity can be logically proven wich is why I am not a Trinitarian.

Thank you for being consistent.

Orthodox believe in Divine Simplicity, but not in Absolute Divine Simplicity as it is taught in the West.
Watch this:

 

[muskogee22]

Thank you for being consistent.

Orthodox believe in Divine Simplicity, but not in Absolute Divine Simplicity as it is taught in the West.
Watch this:

Well,Yes the orthodox are consistent with their essenge-energy distinction even if it is polytheism.

 

[muskogee22]

Palamism is polytheism:

Palamite Eastern ‘Orthodox’ NON-CHRISTIANS - vaticancatholic.com

Non-Christians St. Athanasius: “… the phrases ‘once was not,’ and ‘before it came to be,’ and ‘when,’ and the like, belong to things originate and creatures, which come out of nothing.” Palamite Eastern ‘Orthodox’ NON-CHRISTIANS: [...]

vaticancatholic.com

Jay Dyer Exposed & Palamism Refuted - vaticancatholic.com

This video exposes a very evil proponent of Eastern 'Orthodoxy'. The man is a prime example of how Satan raises up false teachers to attack the true Church, lead people astray and into Hell. The [...]

vaticancatholic.com

Eastern “Orthodoxy” Refuted - The Best Videos Out There

The Real History Of “Orthodoxy” Eastern “Orthodoxy’s” Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils Eastern “Orthodoxy” Debunked On St. Peter’s Authority By St. John Of Damascus Catholic vs. “Orthodox” On The Transfiguration Light (Leo, Maximus) The Trinity & The...

vaticancatholic.com

 

[Katechon]

Palamism is polytheism:

Palamite Eastern ‘Orthodox’ NON-CHRISTIANS - vaticancatholic.com

Non-Christians St. Athanasius: “… the phrases ‘once was not,’ and ‘before it came to be,’ and ‘when,’ and the like, belong to things originate and creatures, which come out of nothing.” Palamite Eastern ‘Orthodox’ NON-CHRISTIANS: [...]

vaticancatholic.com

Jay Dyer Exposed & Palamism Refuted - vaticancatholic.com

This video exposes a very evil proponent of Eastern 'Orthodoxy'. The man is a prime example of how Satan raises up false teachers to attack the true Church, lead people astray and into Hell. The [...]

vaticancatholic.com

Eastern “Orthodoxy” Refuted - The Best Videos Out There

The Real History Of “Orthodoxy” Eastern “Orthodoxy’s” Fatal Flaw On Bishops & Ecumenical Councils Eastern “Orthodoxy” Debunked On St. Peter’s Authority By St. John Of Damascus Catholic vs. “Orthodox” On The Transfiguration Light (Leo, Maximus) The Trinity & The...

vaticancatholic.com

If that'd be the case and ADS was true, the self-professed Trinitarians over at Most Holy Trailerpark would be Modalists as you yourself have stated. You can only have one thing: Christianity (including the doctrine of the Trinity) or Absolute Divine Simplicity (which is the paramound paradigm of gnosticism and all pagan religions).

 

[muskogee22]

If that'd be the case and ADS was true, the self-professed Trinitarians over at Most Holy Trailerpark would be Modalists as you yourself have stated. You can only have one thing: Christianity (including the doctrine of the Trinity) or Absolute Divine Simplicity (which is the paramound paradigm of gnosticism and all pagan religions).

my belief is that Christianity is polytheistic.if you say all 3 are fully God,then you believe in 3 Gods.very simple.if you say its only God when in unison you are still a partialist.and the palamism is definately polytheistic as his videos show.

the only choice for a christian is to be a modalist or unitarian imo and be logically consistent while adhering to scripture.

 

[Katechon]

my belief is that Christianity is polytheistic.if you say all 3 are fully God,then you believe in 3 Gods.very simple.if you say its only God when in unison you are still a partialist.and the palamism is definately polytheistic as his videos show.

the only choice for a christian is to be a modalist or unitarian imo and be logically consistent while adhering to scripture.

You haven't actually watched the video I posted, have you?

 

[PorphyriosK]

A polemical unitarian apologist. Now I've seen everything.

 

[melkite]

my belief is that Christianity is polytheistic.if you say all 3 are fully God,then you believe in 3 Gods.very simple.if you say its only God when in unison you are still a partialist.and the palamism is definately polytheistic as his videos show.

the only choice for a christian is to be a modalist or unitarian imo and be logically consistent while adhering to scripture.

If Muslims believe God is perfect, why do you practice circumcision? Why did God create man uncircumcised if he wanted you to be circumcised?

 

[biro]

Huh?

 

[muskogee22]

If Muslims believe God is perfect, why do you practice circumcision? Why did God create man uncircumcised if he wanted you to be circumcised?

thats a weird question.why does your god want you to be baptizd if you aren't born that way?or eat communion when you aren't born that way?and circumcision is part of the mosaic law wich you believe was revealed by God.

 

[muskogee22]

the problem with latin modalism is that contemplative relations cannot act or will or have intellect.I think that Divine Simplicity ultimately leads to God's absolute unity.

 

[recent convert]

The Lord clearly refers to the Trinity in John 14: 15-18 & notice that his commandments are clearly linked to this necessary understanding. While the Persons of the Trinity are somewhat scattered in the Bible, they are clearly declared in the book of Enoch. While not in the Bible, except for the Ethiopian Church, Enoch seems to be a source of holy tradition that probably fell into more of obscurity than rejection. The Trinity is so clear in Enoch 48 ( for ex) & consistent with the Ancient of Days account in Daniel.

Chapter 48]

1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness​

Which was inexhaustible:​

And around it were many fountains of wisdom:​

And all the thirsty drank of them,​

And were filled with wisdom,​

And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.​

2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,​

And his name before the Head of Days.​

3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,​

Before the stars of the heaven were made,​

His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.​

4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,​

And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,​

And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.​

5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,​

And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.​

6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,​

Before the creation of the world and for evermore.​

7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;​

For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,​

Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,​

And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:​

For in his name they are saved,​

And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.​

8 In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,​

And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands,​

For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not (be able to) save themselves.​

And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:​

9As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:​

As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,​

And no trace of them shall any more be found.​

10 And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,​

And before them they shall fall and not rise again:​

And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:​

For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.​

The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.​

The Book of Enoch, Section II

 

[muskogee22]

The Lord clearly refers to the Trinity in John 14: 15-18 & notice that his commandments are clearly linked to this necessary understanding. While the Persons of the Trinity are somewhat scattered in the Bible, they are clearly declared in the book of Enoch. While not in the Bible, except for the Ethiopian Church, Enoch seems to be a source of holy tradition that probably fell into more of obscurity than rejection. The Trinity is so clear in Enoch 48 ( for ex) & consistent with the Ancient of Days account in Daniel.

Chapter 48]

​

1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness​

Which was inexhaustible:​

And around it were many fountains of wisdom:​

And all the thirsty drank of them,​

And were filled with wisdom,​

And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.​

2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,​

And his name before the Head of Days.​

3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,​

Before the stars of the heaven were made,​

His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.​

4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,​

And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,​

And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.​

5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,​

And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.​

6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,​

Before the creation of the world and for evermore.​

7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;​

For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,​

Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,​

And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:​

For in his name they are saved,​

And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.​

8 In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,​

And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands,​

For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not (be able to) save themselves.​

And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:​

9As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:​

As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,​

And no trace of them shall any more be found.​

10 And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,​

And before them they shall fall and not rise again:​

And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:​

For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.​

The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.​

The Book of Enoch, Section II

in other places this 'advocate'will be like jesus aka a man.we believe this advocate is muhammed(saws).and I do not trust Enoch because all christian writings have been tampered with heavily according to scholars.

 

[recent convert]

in other places this 'advocate'will be like jesus aka a man.we believe this advocate is muhammed(saws).and I do not trust Enoch because all christian writings have been tampered with heavily according to scholars.

What cult do you belong to?

 

[recent convert]

Oh, from another thread it looks like you are a propagandist for the religion of peace.

 

[biro]

I thought he was a hockey player, ‘cause he mentioned Muskogee.

 

[muskogee22]

Oh, from another thread it looks like you are a propagandist for the religion of peace.

Islam Is peaceful .Jihad of the sword is only in self defence.Allah says do not be the agressors and to respect the covenant of peace between nations.I don't think it's good to judge islam based on islamophobic propoganda or jihadi takfiri groups who don't have good scholars.even ibn uthaymeen agreed with me as did Al albani.

And im not calling to islam on this board,I am merely arguing against Christianity.

 

[muskogee22]

I thought he was a hockey player, ‘cause he mentioned Muskogee.

I'm part Choctaw Wich is a muskogean branch.

 

[Ainnir]

I am merely arguing against Christianity.

Good luck with that.

Hi guys.I am a convert to oriental orthodoxy from a baptist backround,to catholicism and then to OO.I am happy with my decision to one day become baptized in the oriental orthodox church...

What happened to this?

 

[muskogee22]

Good luck with that.


What happened to this?

People learn new things and grow.

 

[Deacon Lance]

No simpler explanation.

 

[Deacon Lance]

People learn new things and grow.

You flit from one religion to another like a butterfly. Why would anyone take you seriously or think you’ve learned anything or made any serious growth?

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

Islam Is peaceful .Jihad of the sword is only in self defence.Allah says do not be the agressors and to respect the covenant of peace between nations.I don't think it's good to judge islam based on islamophobic propoganda or jihadi takfiri groups who don't have good scholars.even ibn uthaymeen agreed with me as did Al albani.

And im not calling to islam on this board,I am merely arguing against Christianity.

Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued. Surah 9:29

 

[melkite]

thats a weird question.why does your god want you to be baptizd if you aren't born that way?or eat communion when you aren't born that way?and circumcision is part of the mosaic law wich you believe was revealed by God.

Those really aren't good comparisons. Both baptism and communion are things God asked us to do, to take upon us something that is not inherently a part of us. Circumcision, on the other hand, requires one to cut off something that is a part of us. If God wanted us to be circumcised, he could have made us that way. Baptism is a reaction to what we have become; if we had stayed in the good as God created us, there would have been no need for baptism. And communion is eating the body and blood of Christ. Since we are not Christ, it's not possible to already have him in us without receiving him in some way.

 

[PorphyriosK]

A polemical unitarian apologist. Now I've seen everything.

Correction: A Baptist convert to Islam. NOW I've seen everything.

 

[Eamonomae]

*Sigh*

Did you really come on this site just to call everyone here a polytheist? Really?

But you are obviously not being intellectually honest by your logic, because Sunni Muslims would then be polytheists too.

Quranic createdness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Muslims believe that the Quran, being God's word, is uncreated and exists from all eternity. As this violates God's symplicity, Muslims are literally polytheists who believe there is division within God, and they worship a book as a separate deity. If Christians are polytheists, at least they worship three uncreated hypostases of God.


Now, if we really wanted to, we can also point out how the Prophet Muhammad encouraged worship of "Allah's three daughters" as literal polytheism, and then redacted that because "Satan whispered it in my ear"

Muhammad and the Daughters of Allah: A Summation of the Evidence for the Satanic Verses

The Daughters of Allah

If you stick to Islam, at least look into Sufi Mysticism.

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

*Sigh*

Did you really come on this site just to call everyone here a polytheist? Really?

But you are obviously not being intellectually honest by your logic, because Sunni Muslims would then be polytheists too.

Quranic createdness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Muslims believe that the Quran, being God's word, is uncreated and exists from all eternity. As this violates God's symplicity, Muslims are literally polytheists who believe there is division within God, and they worship a book as a separate deity. If Christians are polytheists, at least they worship three uncreated hypostases of God.


Now, if we really wanted to, we can also point out how the Prophet Muhammad encouraged worship of "Allah's three daughters" as literal polytheism, and then redacted that because "Satan whispered it in my ear"

Muhammad and the Daughters of Allah: A Summation of the Evidence for the Satanic Verses

The Daughters of Allah

If you stick to Islam, at least look into Sufi Mysticism.

Also there is the "Mother of the Book" from which the Quran eternally proceeds.

 

[Alpo2]

Correction: A Baptist convert to Islam. NOW I've seen everything.

I find it quite logical. If you deny most of historical Christianity anway and don't believe in the church, sacraments and priesthood you pretty much get Islam.

 

[muskogee22]

so many debunked arguments in this thread.the quran is not eternal in the sence that the literal words are eternal,it is eternal because it is Allah's speech.and his speech is eternal because he exists outside of time.I am not here to promote islam,only to argue against trinitarianism.I know christians hate islam and our prophet(SAWS).

and yes christians ARE polytheist Tritheists.any model of social Trinitarianism is tritheism.

 

[muskogee22]

You flit from one religion to another like a butterfly. Why would anyone take you seriously or think you’ve learned anything or made any serious growth?

I never really believed in christianity,I just blindly followed it because of the Satanic activity reported by christians like healings,ndes etc the theology always seemed off to me.and the only reason i ever believed in god was because of the necassery absolute simplicity and uniqueness of unconditioned reality,wich is incompatible with tritheism aka the eastern conception of the trinity.

 

[muskogee22]

and this is a poor attempt to discredit my arguments,by attacking my persona.how typical for a christian clergyman.

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

I find it quite logical. If you deny most of historical Christianity anway and don't believe in the church, sacraments and priesthood you pretty much get Islam.

I think you get Deism. Islam is completely incoherent.

I never really believed in christianity,I just blindly followed it because of the Satanic activity reported by christians like healings,ndes etc the theology always seemed off to me.and the only reason i ever believed in god was because of the necassery absolute simplicity and uniqueness of unconditioned reality,wich is incompatible with tritheism aka the eastern conception of the trinity.

Does Allah have hands, a leg, and eyes? Who is Umm Al-Kitab?

 

[Samn!]

the necassery absolute simplicity and uniqueness of unconditioned reality

Simple, unconditioned reality is Aristotelian prime matter, not God. It would be impossible for such an entity to create or bring forth multiplicity.

 

[TheTrisagion]

This thread reminds me of Cathy Newman's interview of Jordan Peterson. Someone telling someone else what they believe without having any concept of what they believe.

"You believe there are three gods"

"Nope, don't believe that"

"Well, obviously you're a polytheist"

"Nope, not true"

"How can you say your aren't a polytheist when you clearly believe there are three gods?"

"*sigh*"

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

@muskogee22 Is Allah's speech part of his essence? At the least it necessitates an essence energy distinction. You could posit that something of God's laws are eternal, sure. But some things in the Quran are personal revelations in time. Such as Allah granting Mohammed to marry any woman who desires him. Do you think that's God's eternal speech and part of his nature? It's obviously created within time, and personally unique.

 

[Alpo2]

Islam is completely incoherent.

Nah, it's quite coherent. There's much that doesn't really make sense and which is wrong, but it's surely quite coherent.

 

[Samn!]

There's much that doesn't really make sense and which is wrong, but it's surely quite coherent.

The types of Islam that hold to the principle of bi-la kayf, where you verbally affirm dogmatic statements while refusing to explain what they mean, might be in some trivial sense coherent, but non-hanbali Sunnism in particular, which holds that the actual words of the Qur'an are uncreated and eternal, is clearly incoherent. And Hanbalism is deliberately brain-dead in order to maintain its surface coherence.

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

Nah, it's quite coherent. There's much that doesn't really make sense and which is wrong, but it's surely quite coherent.

Allah is not omnipresent, has hands, feet and eyes, is coeternal with his speech nevertheless the speech is not God, Jesus is the word and spirit of Allah but not God, and Allah is the creator of evil and sin personally. It's quite incoherent.

 

[Alpo2]

The types of Islam that hold to the principle of bi-la kayf, where you verbally affirm dogmatic statements while refusing to explain what they mean, might be in some trivial sense coherent, but non-hanbali Sunnism in particular, which holds that the actual words of the Qur'an are uncreated and eternal, is clearly incoherent.

Well yeah but I meant coherence in a more larger scale. They conveniently removed much of things that seem anyhow complicated in Christianity and dogmatized various miniscule details early on instead of having to deal with councils and schisms several centuries later.

And Hanbalism is deliberately brain-dead in order to maintain its surface coherence.