In Defense of IPC Against Irish Hermit's Unwarranted Criticism

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Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.
Have you googled Zarist Church then?  Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.
Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have. I'm an oracle you see.

Irish Hermit said:
Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.
Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.
Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.

Irish Hermit said:
Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.
   
My Archbishop didn't know the Synod in Resistance and the Matthewites in Australia were different jurisdictions either. To him they were just "Paleoemerologites". If bishops are not in communion, why would they know about one another?
My Metropolitan is the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and has an intimate and often first-hand knowledge of the ROCOR splinter groups and their bishops.  Prior to becoming Metropolitan he already had an encyclopaedic knowledge of Orthodox vagante groups; it is one of his interests.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?
I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.  In fact I would be sure it is not.

Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church.... I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.
Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.
Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this. Its almost as if you think he is lying.

Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Fr Anastasios says he has checked it out but my Metropolitan says he has not heard of it and it does not exist.   
What exactly are you implying here? Do you think Fr. Anastasios is lying?
I would be very surprised if your question about lying were true.
It's not my question. Its yours. You are the one wanting him to prove what he is saying.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Father, there is no non-unionist ROCOR jurisdiction "the Russian Zarist Church" so I do not know what or how you have checked.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are googled in your cyberspace.
Have you googled Zarist Church then? 
No, but I'm pretty sure that you have.
Months ago, when a member of the Zarist Church first came on the Forum.
Goodness! I am an oracle!
Indeed you are!  The Oracle of Oz.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Perhaps we could politely ask Fr Anastasios to write about what he knows of the Zarist Church....
Is this "we" the royal plural? You are the only one asking him to do this.
Then let it be the pluralis modestatis.

Its almost as if you think he is lying.
You seem awfully bent, on trying to get someone to say that the good Father is lying.  Nobody else has said that, and certainly, I do not believe it.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I do not imagine he has been sworn to secrecy.
We are all sworn to secrecy about our Communion.
"....for I will not speak of Thy Mysteries to Thy enemies, neither will I give the a kiss as did Judas..."
Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?
Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.


Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?
His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.

And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.

Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?
Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
Then what are you worried about?

ialmisry said:
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?
His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
Oh great! Just what we need. Another one who is convinced he is doing God's work.
IPC stated (in what is now another thread) that he views Patriarch Pavle as an heretic and explained his reasons why.  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)

ialmisry said:
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Eugenio said:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"
ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
Father Ambrose has been to Communist Europe, and I've been there and in the Muslim world, where there was/is real persecusion.  There is persecusion in the West of traditional Christianity, though I doubt you acknowledge that and IPC hasn't claimed it.  IPC has displayed a martyr's complex, not martyrdom.
Persecution is persecution no matter who the perpetrator is. St. Nektarios was persecuted by his own Church, deposed and rumours spread about him regarding sexual misconduct.

ialmisry said:
Btw, I thinky you down under have caught up with the rest of us, Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Actually, we are ahead of you in time. You have caught up with us. Theophany was yesterday, its now the Synaxis of the Forerunner here (January 7th).
 

PeterTheAleut

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
IPC seems able only to tear down all other Orthodoxy, whereas his claim to authority to do so has not been made.
Oh please! Do you really think IPC has torn down Orthodoxy?
Perhaps I should reword: thrown rocks at all other Orthodoxy, against which even the gates of Hell will not tear down.
But Jesus did not say that the powers of death would never prevail against some Orthodox jurisdictions while they tear others down.

ialmisry said:
Do you really think what he says will cause the pillars of the Church to crumble?
His curses on the blessed memory of Pat. Pavle will not touch him whom God has taken to Himself, but God has a definite opinion on those who bad mouth his saints (see Numbers 12), an opinion I share.
So IPC has no right to question Patriarch Pavle's sanctity?  Has enough time passed since His Holiness's repose for the Church to properly ascertain his worthiness of glorification?  Yes, I also detest IPC's attacks on the patriarch's memory, but let's not get carried away into rhetoric that implies that His Holiness's sanctity is beyond question.  IPC has posted material to support his accusations of heresy against His Holiness, Patriarch Pavle, and I believe IPC deserves a fair hearing.

ialmisry said:
And pray tell, who does have any "authority" on this forum to condemn other Orthodox jurisdictions? You? By what "authority" do you do so?
Matthew 18.  I just received that Church's blessing today, from a priest sent by the bishop consecrated by those in succession to those Apostles to whom the Lord spoke those words.  From the information we have on this "Zarist" church, it seems a Protestant self starter.
And we have on this forum priests ordained by bishops consecrated by those in succession to the Apostles who have very likely NOT granted you that authority.  Does your priest trump these other priests?
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?  :eek:
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Eugenio said:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"


The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
 

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If you ask me... in defence of IPC, I can only say that the Moscow Patriarchate was regarded as a splinter "Moscow Patriarchate" (in quotation marks) group by the "Ikumeni" for more than 100 years, until Constantinople fell and it became obvious that the person sitting in the Phanar was no longer telling others what they are and who is who, and until someone paid a certain number of gold and/or silver coins to someone, and, ESPEIALLY, a certain number of Sobol skins to someone... which were even more valuable than the golden coins back then...

This is not to defend the right of this weird "Tsarist Church" to exist, oh no. It's just that the manner, the modus, in which jurisdictions are defined as Orthodox in the past and, alas, the present-day Orthodox Church is... Well...
 

deusveritasest

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Irish Hermit said:
CONTEXT NOTE:  The following discussion started HERE.  - PtA


IPC said:
My piece of advice, repent, and sincerely seek God, and He will surely enlighten you and then, you will see. This is goes to all of you.
This is a rather blatant invitation (a piece of proselytism really) to the Orthodox to leave their Church and move elsewhere.  IPC, you ought to be informed that this is an Orthodox Forum.  I do not think that the Orthodox appreciate anybody coming here and telling them to move to another Church.  By all means provide us with information about the Russian Zarist Church (which I assume is not Orthodox since "Orthodox" does not occur in its name) but please do not invite us to pray and repent and leave our Church.  That is what the Mormons tell us to do.
Why should we be afraid of someone trying to draw us to their church which they are convinced that it is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Orthodox Church of Christ and which very well may be so on an objective level?
 
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