In Defense of IPC Against Irish Hermit's Unwarranted Criticism

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Second Chance

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   :eek:
I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts. Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
 

deusveritasest

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Irish Hermit said:
I think this interpretation of IPC's word is not what he wanted to tell us.  He simply wanted to say that if we repented and prayed about our Church membership the Lord will show us that we the Orthodox are in heresy and He will lead us to the True Church.
Close, but not quite. He wouldn't say that the Orthodox are in heresy. Rather, he would say that you're not Orthodox.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Actually, I think he means the "Tsarist Church" as in the Church of Russia. This term has been used before:
Eugenio said:
Here's a reference to a "Tsarist Church" which was a museum exhibit in Russia:

http://visualrian.com/images/item/163356

"Tsarist Church. Holy Relics of the Kremlin's Annunciation Cathedral"


The Tsarist Church is the pre-Revolutionary Church of Russia, the Moscow Synodal Church which was ruled not by a Patriarch (he was abolished in 1721 by Tsar Peter) but ruled by a committee of 7 men, one or two bishops, one or two abbots and a few laymen, all appointed by the Tsar and controlled by the Ober-Procurator who was a member of the Tsar's cabinet.

This is most certainly NOT the Zarist Church to which IPC belongs.
Well he certainly seems to disagree with you and thinks he belongs to a continuation of the Tsarist, Patriarch-less Russian Church. A sedevacantist if you will.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)
Quite right, George.  The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
 

deusveritasest

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ialmisry said:
Irish Hermit said:
IPC said:
Thank you for waking the beast Peter! sheesh heheheheheh

On the 11th day of xmas my true love gave to me, another sergianist attack from Irish Hermit.
Sergianism.... are you saying that an Orthodox priest is infected with heresy?  It kind of eludes me why you say that it is an attempt at humour.  The Russian Churcvh Abroad has always looked upon Sergianism with great alarm.


Sergianism
Sergianism is somewhat more nuanced as a heresy, and finds its origin in the capitulation of Metropolitan Sergius in 1927 to the Soviet state, during which he publicly associated the "sorrows" of the anti-Christian authorities with the suffering of the Church. A definition for Sergianism is at times difficult to clarify, but it has been best defined as the Church submitting to the worldly authorities for the sake of its own survival.

http://trueorthodox.freehostia.com/index.html
I'm afraid that the Zarist Church was Segian ever since Peter I.  So that would leave IPC utterly without grace.
Or ever since Chalcedon.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
  Be that as it may, this topic is now split off, so you need to keep that conflict within the other thread. There is actually a forum rule about this (see "Contain Conflict" under the forum rules.)
Quite right, George.   The topic of this thread is "In Defence of IPC"  so all those who are oposed to IPC should shut up.  They are off topic.

This thread is for those defending IPC. 
Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread. Just don't bring in conflicts from other threads. Having trouble containing conflict Irish Hermit? Try a rubber band around your wrist and flick it every time you get the urge.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Second Chance said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I see that the time zone given on IPC's profile places him somewhere in line with the East Coast of South America.   Have there been reports from there of fresh persecution of Christians?  
Bad detective work. The time zone is defaulted to the location of the server. You have to actually change it in your profile. Be that as it may, what difference does it make where IPC is located? He is being attacked and his Church is being discredited by you anyway. So yes, there are fresh persecutions of Christians where he is.
You said: "Perhaps the catacomb Church is in the catacombs for a reason.

Really, George, I don't think that my questioning of IPC and my defence of my Church and Patriarch against his accusations amount to such a persecutin that I can be credited with driving an entire Church into the catacombs.  At least, I don't myself believe I can be held responsible for the Zarist Church's catacomb existence.  Do any others think I am responsible?   :eek:
I think Peter and George are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from criticism, even if such criticism is extreme. There is no question that IPC tends to write inflammatory and extremely offensive (to me at least) posts.
And I have already advised IPC to expect harsh criticism if he's going to have the gall to accuse our bishops of heresy.  I'm not going to defend him against criticism I deem warranted.  In fact, I've criticized the idiocy, harsh tone, and borderline-slanderous content of many of his posts myself, so I don't think I'm employing a double standard here.

Second Chance said:
Father Ambrose had the right as another poster to condemn IPC's post. He did NOT call for the administrators to censor and expel IPC. I have no idea where Peter and George get their justification to jump on Father Ambrose (and Isa) at the earliest opportunity but they do. BTW, I am not talking about Peter and George as current and former administrators but fellow posters. It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say. It is not as if Peter and George, like many of us, do not have strong opinions. I just don't get it.
Evidence that there's more to these scenarios than your eyes can see. ;)
 

ozgeorge

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Second Chance said:
It just completely blows my mind why Peter and George are so nit picky with everything that Father Ambrose and Isa (and Gebre, to think of it) say.
I don't know about Peter, but I enjoy ruffling all your feathers. :)
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Please, by all means, feel free to attack IPC and his church in this thread.
I am amazed that you are encouraging off topic postings.  I remember your days as a Mod when you sent me several green ink messages and punishments for taking threads off topic.

If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.  What do you think?   Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?

Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.

Irish Hermit said:
Should this be a special privilege of IPC alone or should all members be allowed to follow his example?
By all means, feel free to attack the Orthodox Church and to publicly slander her Bishops.....oh wait....

Irish Hermit said:
Don't get me wrong.  In defence of IPC I am sure that in his home environment he or she is warm and cuddly.   But here on the Forum we seem to knock sparks off him.  Not his fault at all.
I have no idea what you are saying here.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. ;)  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. ;D
 

PeterTheAleut

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PeterTheAleut said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. ;)  In fact, why don't I just go ahead and do that.  Everybody hold on for a second.  This ride may get a bit bumpy. ;D
There! 8)  Fixed that problem. ;D
 

Irish Hermit

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PeterTheAleut said:
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. ;)
The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.  The attacking is initiated from IPC's corner.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Irish Hermit said:
PeterTheAleut said:
I can change this thread's title to make it clear that your attacks on IPC are the reason others are standing up to defend him. ;)
The man has launched several heavy artillery attacks on two of my Patriarchs.  Do you really think I am going to sit here, on an Orthodox Forum, and smile at him while he bombards them.
Maybe you should. ;)  Why do they need you to defend them?
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC. 

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
Irish Hermit said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.

 

Irish Hermit

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PeterTheAleut said:
Maybe you should. ;)  Why do they need you to defend them?
Right! but do you consider it in order for IPC to attack them?

The thread title has been changed to now attack me, accusing me of "unwarranted" criticism of IPC!    Are IPC's attacks on Patriarch Kirill and the late Patriarch Pavle warranted?  Since this thread is for the defence of IPC I would welcome defence of his attacks on the Patriarchs.

Hieromonk Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
Perhaps there is another thread for that or one could be created?  On this thread the topic is DEFENCE of IPC.  

You have drawn our attention to the Forum Rules regarding conflict containment.  This thread is not for conflict but for the defence of IPC.
You have misunderstood in your over excitement. Read again. You said:
Irish Hermit said:
If anything this thread should be expanded, if Schultz agrees, to a discussion of the defence, as a Forum principle, of any anonymous person signing up on the Forum and sending messages critical of the Orthodox Church.
To which I replied:
ozgeorge said:
IPC thinks he belongs to the only Church which is the Orthodox Church. That's what you have to deal with.
What I'm saying is that IPC's position is that his Church is the Orthodox Church, and not yours and not mine. If you want to counter what IPC is saying, you have to question that premise of his. Otherwise, all you end up with is the following:
"We're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"
"No we're Orthodox and you're not"......

I was actually offering you a tip.
Thanks.  I don't do tips. :laugh:

But why should I agree with your assesment of "You're Orthodox, no we are" when I consulted my Metropolitan and was told there is no "Russian Zarist Church."  If you are in doubt, consult your own Church authorities.

In defence of IPC, we would indeed say that he is mighty sincere in his beliefs.
 
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