Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception

Papist

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Papist said:
Metropolitan Kalistos Ware says that yes an Orthodox Christian can believe in the IC. But many Orthodox theologians strongly oppose this.
Is it because of the Original Sin problem? The Anselmian views tied to it?
They provide many reasons why they believe it to be wrong.
1. The original sin problem
2. What they consider the "novleness" of the doctrine.
3. They don't really seem to understand Dun Soctus arguement about Mary being saved before her falling into the hole of Original sin.
4. The fact that it was declared dogma by a Catholic Pope.
etc. etc. etc.
However, I haver read in certain places that there were Orthodox schools that taught the IC at one time and saw this idea that Mary was not sanctified until the annuciation as a novel teaching.
 

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Mardukm said:
Dear brother Nicholas
Two or three EO earlier in the thread (perhaps midway?), I think one of them is a moderator here, confirmed that it is indeed a legitimate theologoumenon in the EOC, that one can believe it while still being Orthodox.
Blessings,
Marduk
Thanks to you, brother. God Bless!
 

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
I believe so yes. But only relatively so.
Not according to Marduk.  ???
I think that all the teachings of the Church are necessary to one's salvation. However, I do believe that ignorance or lack of understanding can be a mitigating factor. So he and I may come at this from different angles, the practical results from his view and mine converge.
 

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Could someone point me to these quotes in this thread, so I don't have to read it all? Thanks.
 

Mardukm

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Papist said:
Metropolitan Kalistos Ware says that yes an Orthodox Christian can believe in the IC. But many Orthodox theologians strongly oppose this.
Is it because of the Original Sin problem? The Anselmian views tied to it?
That's probably half of it.  Personally, I think there is a part of EO'xy that gives more credence to the historic sources, rather than the modern polemics.  As is evident from one of my earlier posts, and several by brother Papist, there are many witnesses to the IC in the EO Tradition. I mean, what do you do if some of your greatest Saints, such as St. Gregory of Palamas, expressed belief in the IC?

Blessings,
Marduk
 

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Mardukm said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Mickey said:
So then...the doctrine of the IC must be believed unto your eternal salvation?
Yes, that is what is a little scary to me.
What's scary is how someone who claims to have been Catholic can make such a false and ignorant statement about the dogma of the IC.  The proscription of the IC does not contain an anathema, but merely an excommunication from the Catholic Church - which, given the Church's teaching that the grace of salvation can exist outside visible boundaires of the Catholic Church (though indeed the Catholic Church is the Church THROUGH which such Grace comes, regardless), is not tantamount to the loss of one's salvation.
Whether my (or Nicholas') statements are false and ignorant, I do not know. I know many Roman Catholics who feel that if they reject an infallible doctrine of the Church, their salvation is in jeopardy because of the ex-communication.

If you care to continue to insert your subjective opinion as to whether people's statements are false and ignorant, it is up to you. But it seems rather uncharitable.
 

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Mardukm said:
I mean, what do you do if some of your greatest Saints, such as St. Gregory of Palamas, expressed belief in the IC?

Blessings,
Marduk
Did St. Gregory Palamas express belief in the IC?
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Could someone point me to these quotes in this thread, so I don't have to read it all? Thanks.
Which quotes?  I must be off, but I will be back later.

Blessings
 

LBK

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Papist said:
I believe so yes. But only relatively so.
... and there is such a thing as being half-pregnant ....  ::)
 

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LBK said:
Papist said:
I believe so yes. But only relatively so.
... and there is such a thing as being half-pregnant ....  ::)
I explained what I meant above. Would you like to address that or just make silly comments?
I can do it too:
"We are no longer the knights who say ni. We are now the knights who say ekki-ekki-ekki-pitang-zoom-boing!"
 

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Mickey said:
Mardukm said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
Mickey said:
So then...the doctrine of the IC must be believed unto your eternal salvation?
Yes, that is what is a little scary to me.
What's scary is how someone who claims to have been Catholic can make such a false and ignorant statement about the dogma of the IC.  The proscription of the IC does not contain an anathema, but merely an excommunication from the Catholic Church - which, given the Church's teaching that the grace of salvation can exist outside visible boundaires of the Catholic Church (though indeed the Catholic Church is the Church THROUGH which such Grace comes, regardless), is not tantamount to the loss of one's salvation.
Whether my (or Nicholas') statements are false and ignorant, I do not know. I know many Roman Catholics who feel that if they reject an infallible doctrine of the Church, their salvation is in jeopardy because of the ex-communication.

If you care to continue to insert your subjective opinion as to whether people's statements are false and ignorant, it is up to you. But it seems rather uncharitable.
You are correct.  I apologize.  I never realized anyone took the proscription of the IC as a statement about loss of salvation.  After all, it only states that one is breaking from the unity of the Church.  Compare that to the anathemas of the Ecumenical Councils.

Once again, I do apologize.

Humbly,
Marduk

 

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A number of Popes leading up to the the 1854 declaration did not condemn disbelief in the IC. I am wondering what suddenly elevated it to the status of infallible.
 

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Papist said:
Mardukm said:
I mean, what do you do if some of your greatest Saints, such as St. Gregory of Palamas, expressed belief in the IC?

Blessings,
Marduk
Did St. Gregory Palamas express belief in the IC?
I must be off, but I will do some research later and get a citation for you.  I've read that from two sources - an EO source and an EC source, two independent studies.  I'll be back later tonight.

Blessings.

P.S. Brother Mickey, I'll be addressing your quotes tonight as well, and perhaps I'll have time by this weekend to respond to brother Mina's great post (if my cold doesn't kill me first - please pray for me).
 

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Mickey said:
A number of Popes leading up to the the 1854 declaration did not condemn disbelief in the IC. I am wondering what suddenly elevated to the status of infallible.
Because it was determined by the Church that this was the correct interpretation of the ancient faith and would encourage the faithful in devotion to Our Lady.
 

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Mickey said:
A number of Popes leading up to the the 1854 declaration did not condemn disbelief in the IC. I am wondering what suddenly elevated to the status of infallible.
This is true.  The debate about the IC in the Latin Church spanned about 800 years.  Requests for its definition existed since the time of Trent.  I've never really looked at that question.  That's a good question.  I'll do some research.

OK, gotta go.

Blessings,
Marduk
 

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The schismatic council of Basle included it. The Council of Trent did not.

This same holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV., of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews.
Council of Trent


Various Popes did not force it upon the faithful because the Franciscans and Dominicans were fighting it out (the Jesuits were thrown into the mix also if I recall).

Then suddenly, voila!  Pope Pius IX elevates it to infallible doctrine. I never understood this.  ???
 

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Mickey said:
The schismatic council of Basle included it. The Council of Trent did not.

This same holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV., of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews.
Council of Trent


Various Popes did not force it upon the faithful because the Franciscans and Dominicans were fighting it out (the Jesuits were thrown into the mix also if I recall).

Then suddenly, voila!  Pope Pius IX elevates it to infallible doctrine. I never understood this.  ???
Well no one was fighting about it anymore.
 

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Papist said:
Well no one was fighting about it anymore.
I see. Let the dust settle and then infallibize it!  :laugh:
 

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Mardukm said:
Dear brother Mina,

That was a great response.  I will offer my responses later in the week or early next week.  For now, I am going to focus on brother Mickey's quotes. Plus I need some time to recuperate from a cold I just got.

BTW, I just wrote you a PM indicating I responded to you, and when I submitted it, your own response was posted, so just disregard my PM to you.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk
God bless you and I hope you feel better.
 

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Papist said:
Metropolitan Kalistos Ware says that yes an Orthodox Christian can believe in the IC. But many Orthodox theologians strongly oppose this.
If you go back to message #50 in this thread ( http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20612.msg308255.html#msg308255 ) you will see that his Primate, Patriarch Bartholomew, denies the Immaculate Conception.
 

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Mardukm said:
I mean, what do you do if some of your greatest Saints, such as St. Gregory of Palamas, expressed belief in the IC?
Well, he didn't.

Saint Gregory wrote some of the most beautiful and profound sermons on the Mother of God  but..... his belief about her conception and the preparation of her ancestors is definitely unique and one out of the box.  He stands alone among the great Church Fathers on this one!  :)

(St) Gregory Palamas, archbishop of Thessalonica and doctor of the hesychasm (+1360) in his 65 published Mariological homilies, developed an entirely original theory about her sanctification. On the one hand, Palamas does not use the formula “immaculate conception” because he believes that Mary was sanctified long before the “primus instans conceptionis“, and on the other, he states quite as categorically as any Roman theologian that Mary was never at any moment sullied by the stain of original sin. Palamas’ solution to the problem, of which as far as we know, he has been the sole supporter, is that God progressively purified all Mary’s ancestors, one after the other and each to a greater degree than his predecessor so that at the end, eis telos, Mary was able to grow, from a completely purified root, like a spotless stem “on the limits between created and uncreated”.

http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-2/

Oddly enough, this chimes with Saint Ambrose's belief that the seed of Joachim was immaculate.
 

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I didn`t read anything from Palama , i don`t usually treasure post schism fathers as much a the fathers before schism , if he says what you said he says he is a cook , sorry for the expression but i thing your misinterpret it , or i misunderstand cause i don`t speak english that good.
 

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Dan-Romania said:
I didn`t read anything from Palama , i don`t usually treasure post schism fathers as much a the fathers before schism , if he says what you said he says he is a cook , sorry for the expression but i thing your misinterpret it , or i misunderstand cause i don`t speak english that good.
:eek: St. Gregory Palamas is considered one of the greatest of the Eastern Orthodox theologians.
 

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If he was that great , why don`t the orthodox Church have this dogma according to what "he said" ?
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Well, he didn't.

Saint Gregory wrote some of the most beautiful and profound sermons on the Mother of God  but..... his belief about her conception and the preparation of her ancestors is definitely unique and one out of the box.  He stands alone among the great Church Fathers on this one!   :)

(St) Gregory Palamas, archbishop of Thessalonica and doctor of the hesychasm (+1360) in his 65 published Mariological homilies, developed an entirely original theory about her sanctification. On the one hand, Palamas does not use the formula “immaculate conception” because he believes that Mary was sanctified long before the “primus instans conceptionis“, and on the other, he states quite as categorically as any Roman theologian that Mary was never at any moment sullied by the stain of original sin. Palamas’ solution to the problem, of which as far as we know, he has been the sole supporter, is that God progressively purified all Mary’s ancestors, one after the other and each to a greater degree than his predecessor so that at the end, eis telos, Mary was able to grow, from a completely purified root, like a spotless stem “on the limits between created and uncreated”.

http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-2/

Oddly enough, this chimes with Saint Ambrose's belief that the seed of Joachim was immaculate.
Wow! He pretty much does stand alone on this one. Very interesting.  :)
 

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Dan-Romania said:
If he was that great , why don`t the orthodox Church have this dogma according to what "he said" ?
The Orthodox have not declared infallible doctrine on this theory known as the Immaculate Conception. That is the point.  ;D
 

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If you read in the prophets what God says about Zion , that her sins have been forgotten and that a minute He left her but he chose it again ... I am against the dogma of Mary being the IC .
 

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Dan-Romania said:
I am against the dogma of Mary being the IC .
Yes. I am convinced that it is a post schism innovation championed by ultramontanism and papal absolutism.
 

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Dan-Romania said:
If he was that great , why don`t the orthodox Church have this dogma according to what "he said" ?
I was unware that the Orthodox Church had any dogma on the matter. By the way, are you a supporter of hesychast spirituality?
 

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Dan-Romania said:
If you read in the prophets what God says about Zion , that her sins have been forgotten and that a minute He left her but he chose it again ... I am against the dogma of Mary being the IC .
And as an Eastern Orthodox Christian you are free to do that. However, St. Gregory Palamas, a great Orthdox theologian, did not believe that Mary was infected with original sin.
 

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Mickey said:
Dan-Romania said:
I am against the dogma of Mary being the IC .
Yes. I am convinced that it is a post schism innovation championed by ultramontanism and papal absolutism.
"innovation"
"ultramontanism"
"papal absolutism"
Oh Mickey, Mickey. Ever since your conversion you have become the Rush Limbaugh of Eastern Orthodoxy.  ;D I suggest a drink to calm you down. My drink of choice is a nice Cape Cod.  ;)
 

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Papist, I have to tell you that in most of my conversations over the last year, a lot perspectives in the Orthodox Church have been based on a counter-Rome polemic, which is what I experienced all of the time in Protestantism.  In the back of my mind it keeps the gnawing question going of who the schismatics are, because only one identity seems to function as an opposite to the other.

To be fair though, all of the Catholics in my family and in general here in the USA have no idea about Orthodoxy, so how could they have any identity based off of anti-Orthodox polemic?  Also, to be fair, as a minority the Orthodox in America are always confused as Catholics and so they constantly have to emphasize the differences.

Just thinking out loud...
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Papist, I have to tell you that in most of my conversations over the last year, a lot perspectives in the Orthodox Church have been based on a counter-Rome polemic, which is what I experienced all of the time in Protestantism.  In the back of my mind it keeps the gnawing question going of who the schismatics are, because only one identity seems to function as an opposite to the other.

To be fair though, all of the Catholics in my family and in general here in the USA have no idea about Orthodoxy, so how could they have any identity based off of anti-Orthodox polemic?  Also, to be fair, as a minority the Orthodox in America are always confused as Catholics and so they constantly have to emphasize the differences.

Just thinking out loud...
All very fair observations. However, I don't want you to think that I believe that all Orthodox Christians define their faith by "not being Catholic". This is something I see more often in extermely zelous converts that left the Catholic Church.
 
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