Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception

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Papist said:
No its because I'm too intelligent. Look I am not going to get drawn into another one of your nonsensical back and forths. If you want to continue this just do it with some one else. Fr. A has taught you well.
Unfair, Papist!  The sum total of our posts on CAF about the Immaculate Conception must add up to several days of our lives.  From my side I tried to conduct those discussions in as intelligent as matter as my decaying brain matter allows.

My bottom line remains:    I was conceived in exactly the same state as the Mother of God;  if she was immaculately conceived, then so was I.
 

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Mardukm you completly twisted what i said , and understand only what you wanted to understand , not to say you didn`t even quote the phrases as they were having continuity , but you quoted small parts making them interpretable , what i said is very clear , the fact that you don`t want to see it , and twist my words , and try changind the ideas i made , firstly reveals a sign of disrespect of my personna at secondly your interest of having right more than others , searching your own righteouss even if it is detrimental of the true . What i said is clear , your answers reveal foulishness , disrespect , and self-righteouss. The so many suppositions about the IC birth of Mary , are different and differ from one person to another . As Saint Ambrose of Milan said quoting from the Song of Solomon : "I am black and beautiful" . As he(Saint Ambrose) says black because of the human nature , black because she comes from the sinners , beautiful trough faith , trough grace . And also from Song of Solomon : "Who is this who is risen whitened" the commentary of Saint Ambrose : who is this who was black and now is white ? And Ambrose says that the Church took stained clothes , but her soul was washed and cleaned trough the bath of the rebirth .Also from Song of Solomon : Beautiful you are my love and there is no blemish , no defect in you , and Ambrose says because the blame was swallowed by water . The comentary of St Ambrose of Milan if from the Writings about the Sacraments(Mysteries) of the Church , sorry for my english .
 

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None of the ancient Holy Fathers say that God in miraculous fashion purified the Virgin Mary while yet in the womb; and many directly indicate that the Virgin Mary, just as all men, endured a battle with sinfulness, but was victorious over temptations and was saved by Her Divine Son.
St John Maximovitch
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
No its because I'm too intelligent. Look I am not going to get drawn into another one of your nonsensical back and forths. If you want to continue this just do it with some one else. Fr. A has taught you well.
My bottom line remains:    I was conceived in exactly the same state as the Mother of God;  if she was immaculately conceived, then so was I.
Not a good syllogism. If God chose to bestow the grace of baptism on Mary at the moment of her conception, then that is his choice. Just as it was his choice to betow the grace of baptism on St. John the Baptist before he was even born.
 

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Mickey said:
None of the ancient Holy Fathers say that God in miraculous fashion purified the Virgin Mary while yet in the womb; and many directly indicate that the Virgin Mary, just as all men, endured a battle with sinfulness, but was victorious over temptations and was saved by Her Divine Son.
St John Maximovitch
So believe that the All Holy, All Pure, Immaculate Theotokos was not even purified in the womb but St. John the Baptist was? WOW.
 

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The Orthodox Church, highly exalting the Mother of God in its hymns of praise, does not dare to ascribe to Her that which has not been communicated about Her by Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

The teaching that the Mother of God was purified before Her birth, so that from Her might be born the Pure Christ, is meaningless; because if the Pure Christ could be born only if the Virgin might be born pure, it would be necessary that Her parents also should be pure of original sin, and they again would have to be born of purified parents, and going further in this way, one would have to come to the conclusion that Christ could not have become incarnate unless all His ancestors in the flesh, right up to Adam inclusive, had been purified beforehand of original sin. But then there would not have been any need for the very Incarnation of Christ, since Christ came down to earth in order to annihilate sin.
St John Maximovitch
 

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Mickey said:
The Orthodox Church, highly exalting the Mother of God in its hymns of praise, does not dare to ascribe to Her that which has not been communicated about Her by Sacred Scripture or Tradition.

The teaching that the Mother of God was purified before Her birth, so that from Her might be born the Pure Christ, is meaningless; because if the Pure Christ could be born only if the Virgin might be born pure, it would be necessary that Her parents also should be pure of original sin, and they again would have to be born of purified parents, and going further in this way, one would have to come to the conclusion that Christ could not have become incarnate unless all His ancestors in the flesh, right up to Adam inclusive, had been purified beforehand of original sin. But then there would not have been any need for the very Incarnation of Christ, since Christ came down to earth in order to annihilate sin.
St John Maximovitch
St. John Maximovitch is attacking a straw man. Of course Christ could have been born of a sinner or one who had be stained by original sin. That would not have affected his holiness in the least. It was quite possible. However, it was proper and fitting, even though not 100% necessary, that the Holy Ark that bore him would be constructed of the purest gold adn the finest wood, a person undefiled by sin. Notice the difference between "necessary" and "proper".
A question to you Mickey. Was the All Holy, All Pure, Immaculate Theotokos personally guilty of Sin?
And what is more, how can St. John the baptist have been sanctified before birth but not the All Holy Theotokos?
 

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The teaching of the grace-given sinlessness of the Virgin Mary denies Her victory over temptations; from a victor who is worthy to be crowned with crowns of glory, this makes Her a blind instrument of God’s Providence.
St John Maximovitch
 

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It is not an exaltation and greater glory, but a belittlement of Her, this “gift” which was given Her by Pope Pius IX and all the rest who think they can glorify the Mother of God by seeking out new truths. The Host Holy Mary has been so much glorified by God Himself, so exalted is Her life on earth and Her glory in heaven, that human inventions cannot add anything to Her honor and glory. That which people themselves invent only obscures Her Face from their eyes. Brethren, take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ, wrote the Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit (Col. 2:18).
St John Maximovitch
 

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Mickey said:
The teaching of the grace-given sinlessness of the Virgin Mary denies Her victory over temptations; from a victor who is worthy to be crowned with crowns of glory, this makes Her a blind instrument of God’s Providence.
St John Maximovitch
Another poor arguement. Goodness, St. John Maximovitch may be very holy but he is not very good at constructing an arguement. His arguement would only  follow IF the Blessed Virign Mary did not have Free Will. However, she did have free will and could have sinned if she had so chosen. Yet she did not and was victorious over sin. Thus, once again St. John Maximovitch's arguement is just silly.
 

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“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
 

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Mickey said:
It is not an exaltation and greater glory, but a belittlement of Her, this “gift” which was given Her by Pope Pius IX and all the rest who think they can glorify the Mother of God by seeking out new truths. The Host Holy Mary has been so much glorified by God Himself, so exalted is Her life on earth and Her glory in heaven, that human inventions cannot add anything to Her honor and glory. That which people themselves invent only obscures Her Face from their eyes. Brethren, take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ, wrote the Apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit (Col. 2:18).
St John Maximovitch
This is just a silly arguement as it assumes the truth of the EO position from the get go. If you assume you are correct you will conclude you are correct.
 

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Mickey said:
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
What's your point? Yes only Christ is the only one who is "perfectly holy" becuase he is the only one who is Holy in and of himself. Any other person who is holy is not perfectly so because their holiness is derived from God and not one's self.
 

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“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
 

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Mickey said:
“Of all those born of women, there is not a single one who is perfectly holy, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ, Who in a special new way of immaculate birth-giving, did not experience earthly taint”
(St. Ambrose, Commentary on Luke, ch. 2).
Already addressed. Try again. Furthermore, if you want to use this quote to support your position you first have to define what St. Ambrose meant by "earthly taint" and second you have to deal with the fact that quote does NOT say that Christ is only one who did not experience "earthly taint". It only says that he is the only one who is perfectly holy.
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?
 

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“One Man alone, the Intermediary between God and man, is free from the bonds of sinful birth, because He was born of a Virgin, and because in being born He did not experience the touch of sin”
(St. Ambrose, Against Julian, Book 2).
 

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Mickey said:
“One Man alone, the Intermediary between God and man, is free from the bonds of sinful birth, because He was born of a Virgin, and because in being born He did not experience the touch of sin”
(St. Ambrose, Against Julian, Book 2).
He was free from the bonds of a sinful birth in and of himself. Yes. Mary was bound to it but sanctified so that she would not experience it. Still waiting for you to construct an arguement. BTW, doesn't this quote REFUTE the EO position on original sin?
 

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“I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by the reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, ‘One must glorify the Mother of God as much as possible.’ This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment. This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious. But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her.”
Bernard of Clairvaux
 

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Mickey said:
“I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by the reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, ‘One must glorify the Mother of God as much as possible.’ This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment. This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious. But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her.”
Bernard of Clairvaux
Again a poor arguement by St. Bernard. The Immaculate Conception is not based on any of the arguements listed above. It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary. However it was Proper. Now are you going to continue slinging quotes like protestants do or are you going to engage in an arguement?
 
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