Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception

Mickey

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“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Papist said:
...It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary...
Then why so up in arms about it? It isn't dogma, so why fight so hard about it, as if it were?
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux
Ok. We could go round and round on this for hours Mickey. So when you decide you want to have a dicussion on the mater and actually analyze these texts, let me know. You can always PM me. But what you are doing right now is silly. Its not dicussion. Its not debate. As a matter of fact I think its silly. I am completely willing to have a discussion with you when you decide you are ready. Let me know.
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Papist said:
...It was not necessary and it is not Catholic teaching that it was necessary...
Then why so up in arms about it? It isn't dogma, so why fight so hard about it, as if it were?
My concern is that Mickey is presenting arguements against something that is not Catholic dogma. The problem with this is that people will assume that it is Catholic dogma or that those arguements are the reasons that we give for the Immaculate Conception. This is dangerous because it will spread falsehoods about the Catholic faith and that bothers me. He has pulled this kind of thing ever since he left the Catholic Church.
 

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“There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thou alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins.”
(St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost.)
 

LBK

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BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?
A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.


 

PoorFoolNicholas

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LBK said:
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?
A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.
Very good. Thanks.
 

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LBK said:
BTW, do you think that this quotes refutes what the liturgy says about Mary being the "All Holy",  "All Pure", "Immaculate" Theotokos?
A complete non sequitur, and you know it, Papist. The question here is not whether the Mother of God is all-holy, all-pure, etc, but at which point in her life did she become fully so, to the extent that she is indeed more honourable and more glorious than the hosts on high (a frequent Orthodox liturgical reference). As I have said before on other matters on this forum, the liturgical deposit of the Orthodox Church represents the consensus patrum of the Church on doctrinal and theological matters. It safeguards against the traps of playing duels by parrying quotes from the Fathers, as, given that even saints are not infallible, contradictions can be found between individual Fathers.

Selections from the Vigil for the Annunciation:

From Ode 7, Canon at Matins:

The descent of the Holy Spirit has purified my soul; it has sanctified my body; it has made me a temple containing God, a divinely-adorned tabernacle, a living sanctuary, and the pure Mother of Life.

From Ode 8:

You appear to speak the truth, answered the Virgin. For you have come as a messenger, bringing joy to all. Since I am to be purified in soul and body by the Spirit, let it happen to me according to your word. May God now dwell in me. I cry out to Him with you: All you works of the Lord, bless the Lord.
John the Baptist is never given the title of "All Holy" and "All Pure" yet he was sanctified from the womb. If Mary was given such an exalted title it seems more likely that she would have been sanctified at least from the womb as was St. John who not even given such a glorious title.
Further, just because she was sanctified at the moment of the annuciation, does not mean that she was not also sanctified before that. She may have been given grace before and more grace then. Do you not believe that she was free from all sin during the entirety of her life?
 

Mickey

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"And as it pertains to the excellent dignity of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and Savior of all, and that He opens the door to all, and that He alone died for all, the Virgin Mary is not excluded from this generality, lest while increasing the Mother's excellence, the glory of the Son be lessened: and so the mother attests, who wishes the Son to be more extolled and honored than she herself, the Creator than the creature."
Bonaventure (d. 1274)
 

Papist

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Here's a quote for everyone to consider:
"Many Saints appeared before you, but none was filled with grace as you; no one has been purified in advance as you have been."
This is from St Sophronius of Jerusalem (556-638 AD).
Notice it that he clearly points out that she was filled with grace in advance. I think that this suggest that here sanctification occured in a manner different than the human race and possible could be suggesting a sanctification like that of John the Baptist in the womb. However, he does point out that none was filled with grace like Mary. This could mean that her sanctification was even more unique than that of John the Baptist. Could this mean that it happend at the moment of her conception? Possibly. If she is truely the "All Holy" otherwise? I don't think so.
 

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Mickey said:
"And as it pertains to the excellent dignity of Christ, that He is the Redeemer and Savior of all, and that He opens the door to all, and that He alone died for all, the Virgin Mary is not excluded from this generality, lest while increasing the Mother's excellence, the glory of the Son be lessened: and so the mother attests, who wishes the Son to be more extolled and honored than she herself, the Creator than the creature."
Bonaventure (d. 1274)
Mickey,
Look at my last post. Not only did i provide a quote but my understanding of the quote and its application to my position. That's how you have a dicussion.
 

Mickey

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“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to ancestral sin and death”
(Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition’ of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God”).
 

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"Earth she is because she is from earth. But she is a new earth, since she derives in no way from her ancestors and has not inherited the old leaven. She is a new dough and has originated a new race." - St. St Nicholas Cabasilas (14th Century)

Notice that Mary does not derive the old leaven from her ancestors. No, she is new dough, a new creation. Thus she cannot have inherited original sin otherwise she would have just been the old leaven.
 

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"When the Mother of Him who is beauty itself is born, [human] nature recovers in her person its ancient privileges, and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God." - St. Andrew of Crete (740 AD)

This demonstrates that Mary was holy and sanctified well before the annunciation. Was already holy when she was born. Could she have been so before her birth? At her conception? The quote does not rule out such a possibility.
 

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It is not for nothing that the Orthodox Church, in her liturgical texts, calls David 'the ancestor of God' and gives the same name of 'holy and righteous ancestors of God' to Joachim and Anna. The Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception seems to break up this uninterrupted succession of Old Testament holiness, which reaches its fulfillment at the moment of the Annunciation, when the Holy Spirit came down upon the Virgin to make her fit to receive the Word of the Father in her womb. The Orthodox Church does not admit the idea that the Holy Virgin was thus exempted from the lot of the rest of fallen humanity - the idea of a 'privilege' which makes her into a being ransomed before the redemptive work, by virtue of the future merits of her Son.
Vladimir Lossky
 

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Apparently Mickey has a GIANT book of quotes against IC. It's kind of funny actually. :D
 

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Mardukm said:
Mary was born from man seed and all born from man seed are touched by the stain of the Ancestral Sin , like it was repeated many times concerning this subject

Saint Ambrose says that the seed of Saint Joachim was immaculate.  Since he would have seen Original Sin as being passed on via the act of conception and specificially via the male seed he must have thought it fitting that Joachim's seed was immaculate and without Original Sin.

Mardukm said:
Yet, St. Jacob of Sarug taught that Mary was perfect, without stain, even BEFORE the Annunciation. 
 

Message 239 is a question addressed to Catholics but nobody has been able to answer it.    Could you please have a look? 
 

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Papist said:
St. John Maximovitch is attacking a straw man. 
Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who died in 1153 and is seen by some Orthodox as the last authentic bearer of the patristic tradition in the West before the advent of the Scholastic age, denies the Immaculate Conception.

Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION. .


If it were official Church teaching or ancient Tradition would he have denied it? This is all the more striking because his profound love for Mary and his writings in her honour had gained him the title of "Troubadour of the Virgin." Read his Epistle 174...

"I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, 'One must glorify the Mother of God as much as Possible.' This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment.

"This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of Her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious.

"But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her."


"I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. if, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of Her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of lightmindedness"



 

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Mickey said:
It is not for nothing that the Orthodox Church, in her liturgical texts, calls David 'the ancestor of God' and gives the same name of 'holy and righteous ancestors of God' to Joachim and Anna. The Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception seems to break up this uninterrupted succession of Old Testament holiness, which reaches its fulfillment at the moment of the Annunciation, when the Holy Spirit came down upon the Virgin to make her fit to receive the Word of the Father in her womb. The Orthodox Church does not admit the idea that the Holy Virgin was thus exempted from the lot of the rest of fallen humanity - the idea of a 'privilege' which makes her into a being ransomed before the redemptive work, by virtue of the future merits of her Son.
Vladimir Lossky
We don't deny that these other people were holy. But only Mary was All Holy, All Pure, and Immaculate.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Saint Bernard of Clairvaux who died in 1153 and is seen by some Orthodox as the last authentic bearer of the patristic tradition in the West before the advent of the Scholastic age, denies the Immaculate Conception.
What's your point?
Irish Hermit said:
Now you may say that Bernard was a complete ignoramus - which would be hard to justify - but one thing we can deduce from his fierce rejection of the Immaculate Conceptions is that it did NOT form any part of the genuine Tradition of the Western Church.  Bernard perceived it as an INNOVATION. .
A perons can be wrong without being an ignoramus. You quite often wrong Father but I don't think you are an ignoramus.
Irish Hermit said:
If it were official Church teaching or ancient Tradition would he have denied it? This is all the more striking because his profound love for Mary and his writings in her honour had gained him the title of "Troubadour of the Virgin." Read his Epistle 174...

"I am frightened now, seeing that certain of you have desired to change the condition of important matters, introducing a new festival unknown to the Church, unapproved by reason, unjustified by ancient tradition. Are we really more learned and more pious than our fathers? You will say, 'One must glorify the Mother of God as much as Possible.' This is true; but the glorification given to the Queen of Heaven demands discernment.

"This Royal Virgin does not have need of false glorifications, possessing as She does true crowns of glory and signs of dignity. Glorify the purity of Her flesh and the sanctity of Her life. Marvel at the abundance of the gifts of this Virgin; venerate Her Divine Son; exalt Her Who conceived without knowing concupiscence and gave birth without knowing pain. But what does one yet need to add to these dignities? People say that one must revere the conception which preceded the glorious birth-giving; for if the conception had not preceded, the birth-giving also would not have been glorious.

"But what would one say if anyone for the same reason should demand the same kind of veneration of the father and mother of Holy Mary? One might equally demand the same for Her grandparents and great-grandparents, to infinity. Moreover, how can there not be sin in the place where there was concupiscence? All the more, let one not say that the Holy Virgin was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I say decisively that the Holy Spirit descended upon Her, but not that He came with Her."


"I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. if, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of Her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of lightmindedness"
I have already answered most of his arguements in previous posts.
 
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