Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception

Schultz

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Papist said:
Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Irish Hermit said:
Mickey said:
I also remember reading somewhere that the Catholic Saint Catherine of Sienna received a vision where the Virgin Mary told Catherine that she was not immaculately conceived. Do you know anything about this?
In Fr. Benedict Groeschel's book, "A Still, Small Voice" he talks about St. Catherine of Siena's declaration that she received a revelation that the Virgin Mary was not immaculately conceived.


http://www.amazon.com/Still-Small-Voice-Practical-Revelations/dp/0898704367
Since I am probably not going to run out and buy this book, could you provide a quote?
I am not able to do that.  The small amount of information I was able to give comes from a Catholic source, Catholic Answers Forum.

I see that Fr Groeschel's book is on google books.   Maybe someone could seach it?   I fear that my old spinning jenny of a computer cannot manage to download it all.

Here is the link to his book

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=A1NrfO2uFNAC&dq=%22%22A+Still,+Small+Voice%22+groeschel&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=B4_Ls0MxIw&sig=jlXbCeTxj-L4XrbVarZjKGqhRM0&hl=en&ei=26v5ScfxD5qytAO_rKnyAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
So this may not be true after all?
Page 59 of Fr. Groeschel's book mentions the above tidbit re: St. Catherine and the IC.  The citation goes onto page 60, which is, alas, not part of the free preview.  The chapter, though, is entitled "Sources of Error in Private Revelation" and the subsection deals with "Subjective Need" as a source for error in private revelation.  However, w/o page 60, we really can't see the full point Fr. Benedict is trying to make :(
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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"It is reported that Saint Catherine of Siena learned from a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself that the Immaculate Coception was not true. Actually at this time the Dominicans and the Franciscans were locked in theological controversy over this question. It seemed to the saint that Our Lady took the side of the Dominicans....Where do preconceived ideas end and revelations begin?"

A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations
Benedict J. Groeschel
 

Mickey

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
"It is reported that Saint Catherine of Siena learned from a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself that the Immaculate Coception was not true. Actually at this time the Dominicans and the Franciscans were locked in theological controversy over this question. It seemed to the saint that Our Lady took the side of the Dominicans....Where do preconceived ideas end and revelations begin?"

A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations
Benedict J. Groeschel
Thank you poorfool. I also found this:

There is much room for error in private revelations, even when they are
given to Saints (cf. file on discernment of spirits). Canonization of a
Saint does not at all guarantee the truth of alleged private revelations.
St. Catherine of Siena seems to have claimed Our Lady appeared to her and
denied the Immaculate Conception.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/PRIPUB.TXT


 

Mickey

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Was the definition for the doctrine of the IC given to Pope Pius IX as private revelation?

Is this doctrine considered to be infallible as set forth by Pius IX?
 

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Mickey said:
Was the definition for the doctrine of the IC given to Pope Pius IX as private revelation?
No. When you ask questions like this I wonder if you really were ever a member of the Catholic Church.
Mickey said:
Is this doctrine considered to be infallible as set forth by Pius IX?
Yes.
 

Papist

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
"It is reported that Saint Catherine of Siena learned from a vision of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself that the Immaculate Coception was not true. Actually at this time the Dominicans and the Franciscans were locked in theological controversy over this question. It seemed to the saint that Our Lady took the side of the Dominicans....Where do preconceived ideas end and revelations begin?"

A Still, Small Voice: A Practical Guide on Reported Revelations
Benedict J. Groeschel
Or the "apparition" never happened and was created by others to support their own view.
 

Mickey

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So then...the doctrine of the IC must be believed unto your eternal salvation?

 

PoorFoolNicholas

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By the way, can the Orthodox believe in the IC? Does it count as one of the non dogmatics among the EO? Or am I way off?
 

Mardukm

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Regarding this particular topic, here is what Pope Benedict XIV wrote in the 17th century, in a work concerning the canonization of Saints and the investigation of their private revelations:

There is also a revelation attributed to S. Catherine of Sienna, that the Blessed Virgin was conceived in original sin, and which is mentioned by S. Antoninus. But as there is no trace of that revelation among the visions and revelations of S. Catherine, collected by the Blessed Raymund of Capua, there arises no slight suspicion, that this has been added to them ,and is therefore to be accounted apocryphal, as is shown at length by Cardinal Gotti and Martin del Rio.

Regarding Fr. Groeschel’s commentary that Pope Benedict XIV suggested that St. Catherine may have been influenced by her teachers, here is the exact quote from Pope Benedict’s work:

Nicholas Lancizzil thus speaks of the revelation of S. Catherine of Sienna that the Blessed Virgin was conceived in original sin: “If S. Catherine said this, she did it, not from God revealing it, but from her own spirit and understanding, as one of the spiritual children of the Dominicans, form whom she had learned it. We must know that when pious persons, abstracted from the senses, speak, they frequently speak of their own understanding, and are sometimes deceived. This is certain, and persons experienced in these things know it, and it is clear from authentic ecclesiastical histories, and I could name some holy women, canonized by the Apostolic See, whose sayings and writing in rapture, and derived from raptures are filled with errors, and therefore not allowed to be published.”
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Mickey said:
So then...the doctrine of the IC must be believed unto your eternal salvation?
Yes, that is what is a little scary to me.
What's scary is how someone who claims to have been Catholic can make such a false and ignorant statement about the dogma of the IC.  The proscription of the IC does not contain an anathema, but merely an excommunication from the Catholic Church - which, given the Church's teaching that the grace of salvation can exist outside visible boundaires of the Catholic Church (though indeed the Catholic Church is the Church THROUGH which such Grace comes, regardless), is not tantamount to the loss of one's salvation.

Blessings,
Marduk
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
By the way, can the Orthodox believe in the IC? Does it count as one of the non dogmatics among the EO? Or am I way off?
Hello? Anyone there? Must be a bad connection...
 

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
By the way, can the Orthodox believe in the IC? Does it count as one of the non dogmatics among the EO? Or am I way off?
Hello? Anyone there? Must be a bad connection...
Metropolitan Kalistos Ware says that yes an Orthodox Christian can believe in the IC. But many Orthodox theologians strongly oppose this.
 

Mardukm

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Irish Hermit said:
Mardukm said:
BTW, Father Ambrose, here is another quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia demonstrating that the dogma of the IC refers to her ensoulment, not her physical conception:
Sorry, Marduk, but that is too hilarious.   In all my decades I have never ever heard it referred to as the Immaculate Ensoulment.
Why don't you address the quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia instead of making these meaningless comments?  Is it because you really can't address them?  Is it because you can't let go of your MISconception of the IC?
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Papist said:
Metropolitan Kalistos Ware says that yes an Orthodox Christian can believe in the IC. But many Orthodox theologians strongly oppose this.
Is it because of the Original Sin problem? The Anselmian views tied to it?
 

Mardukm

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Dear brother Nicholas

PoorFoolNicholas said:
PoorFoolNicholas said:
By the way, can the Orthodox believe in the IC? Does it count as one of the non dogmatics among the EO? Or am I way off?
Hello? Anyone there? Must be a bad connection...
Two or three EO earlier in the thread (perhaps midway?), I think one of them is a moderator here, confirmed that it is indeed a legitimate theologoumenon in the EOC, that one can believe it while still being Orthodox.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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