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Indigenous Russian Sects

AntoniousNikolas

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In another thread, DeniseDenise mentioned indigenous Russian sects that were not necessarily riffs on Orthodoxy but likewise were not transplants from the West.  Not being an expert on Russian history, this at first threw me a bit, since I regarded the Orthodoxy introduced by the Byzantines as being the ultimate root of Russian Christianity.  Then I remembered something I'd read decades ago (man, I'm getting old) in an undergrad World Religions course.  Our hippie professor had us read reams of photocopied excerpts from a book she never shut up about called The Sacred Fire by B.Z. Goldberg.  It described all manner of bizarre indigenous Russian sects (indeed, it described bizarre Christian and non-Christian sects from all around the world).  I can't image that any of these exist today.  (Or do they?)  I'm also guessing that as far removed from Orthodoxy as these sects appear to be, they must trace their ultimate origins to people who left the Church at some point, since Orthodoxy was the first and primary form of Christianity introduced to Russia, correct?

At any rate, through the magic of google, I managed to track the text of the book down online.  Does anyone know more about any of these, or other indigenous Russian sects that are not based in Orthodox spirituality?  A sampling of Russian sects so outlandish they give even the strangest Western sects a run for their money:

During the reign of Alexander II, in Russia, another such sect was founded by a man named Shodkin. He preached suicide by starvation, claiming that the anti-Christ was ruling the world and that the millennium was at hand. There was, then, only one means of salvation: to be buried in a cave in the woods and to await death by starvation. In shrouds, the prophet and his flock, including the women and children, entered the cave. Scattering sand over their heads and driving out the devil, they closed the opening.
A degree closer to violence is the custom of an even more recent Russian sect called Ticklers. In their services, the males tickled the females so long that the latter fell into swoons. And as it was believed that each death added to the holiness of the service, no effort was exerted to revive the exhausted ones.
A large number of sects in Russia, at the close of the last century, preached suicide by burning. Again, the keynote of their philosophy was that the anti-Christ was ruling, that the end of the world was at hand. Suicide was, therefore, the only road to happiness. Only fire could cleanse the soul of the sins of this world. And the leaders of this sect advocated suicide by burning. One such preacher exhorted the father of a family to enclose himself with his wife and children in a wooden hut. Thereupon, the preacher himself piled straw about the walls and kindled the fire. An epidemic of such suicide fires soon swept the whole country. In one case, a woman escaped and reported the proceedings to the police. As the latter came upon the scene of the fire, the sectarians shouted in ghastly voices: "The anti-Christ is here. Draw closer into the fire," as the flames enveloped them
Among the Russian sects the faithful did not have to resort to adopting children. There were some members who consorted with their wives for the purpose of raising daughters, which was a much lesser sin than bringing sons into the world. Once a son came, the couple had to separate forever. The daughters were encouraged to enter into promiscuous unions as soon as age permitted. And there were still other sources of life to continue the great light of the sect. These were the births that came as a result of the orgies and promiscuous relationships that characterized the religious services. Here again, the females were preferred, the males being disposed of either by secret killing or outright murder, or by dedication to the priesthood through castration.
The purest form of self-destruction in religious worship was reached by the Skopzi, the "castrated ones." They called themselves the "White Doves," that is, the pure. Their theology is quite simple. They are not bound at all by the Bible, as they consider it a falsification. The true scripture is the "Book of the Dove," which was found among them as far back as the time of Peter the Third, whom they called their Christ. According to this book, Adam and Eve sinned by entering into sexual relationship. Sexual union, then, is the original sin. Of the first human pair, new ones came into the world, and the sin is continued indefinitely. There is only one way to avoid this evil, and that is by destroying the potency of humans to mate and rear children.

According to the Skopzi, Jesus, the son of God, was supposed to bring to mankind salvation by castration.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/tsf/tsf22.htm
 

DeniseDenise

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you forgot the


Khlysts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khlysts

the Subbotniks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subbotniks

The Doukhobors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doukhobor

and my family's group, the Molokans.....


One book that covers some of this is Heretics and Colonizers: Forging Russia's Empire in the South Caucasus
By Nicholas B. Breyfogl  ....I admit to not having read all of it yet...but I can attest that he spoke to the 'right' people as far as Molokans are concerned so I would consider it a fairly trustworthy accounting.



I do also really like this quote from this page

http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1916_252a.html

Russian sectarianism -- is an integral part of the spiritual life of the Russian nation. A quite unique spiritual array can be discovered in Russian sectarianism -- the Russian thirst for righteous life, life freed from this world, the thirst for a life in God, but distorted and impaired. The sectarian consciousness often becomes affected by rationalism, but there is a great mystical thirst, hidden within some of our sects. The sectarian -- is a man, struck and wounded by the untruth (external) of the Orthodox mode of life and the churchly order of things. The Russian sectarian is not to be reconciled with the relative, he adapts the absolute towards the relative, he wants absolute life. And in each sect there is a piece of fragmented truth, there is a distorted truth. The sectarian is inclined always to affirm a portion of the truth exclusively and fully, he mistakes one ray of light for the sun.


 

DeniseDenise

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I have more resources but i will let others play as well...;)


 

rakovsky

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Antonious Nikolas said:
In another thread, DeniseDenise mentioned indigenous Russian sects that were not necessarily riffs on Orthodoxy but likewise were not transplants from the West.  Not being an expert on Russian history, this at first threw me a bit, since I regarded the Orthodoxy introduced by the Byzantines as being the ultimate root of Russian Christianity.  Then I remembered something I'd read decades ago (man, I'm getting old) in an undergrad World Religions course.  Our hippie professor had us read reams of photocopied excerpts from a book she never shut up about called The Sacred Fire by B.Z. Goldberg.  It described all manner of bizarre indigenous Russian sects (indeed, it described bizarre Christian and non-Christian sects from all around the world).  I can't image that any of these exist today.  (Or do they?)  I'm also guessing that as far removed from Orthodoxy as these sects appear to be, they must trace their ultimate origins to people who left the Church at some point, since Orthodoxy was the first and primary form of Christianity introduced to Russia, correct?

At any rate, through the magic of google, I managed to track the text of the book down online.  Does anyone know more about any of these, or other indigenous Russian sects that are not based in Orthodox spirituality?  A sampling of Russian sects so outlandish they give even the strangest Western sects a run for their money:

During the reign of Alexander II, in Russia, another such sect was founded by a man named Shodkin. He preached suicide by starvation, claiming that the anti-Christ was ruling the world and that the millennium was at hand. There was, then, only one means of salvation: to be buried in a cave in the woods and to await death by starvation. In shrouds, the prophet and his flock, including the women and children, entered the cave. Scattering sand over their heads and driving out the devil, they closed the opening.
I couldn't find a Shodkin sect on the internet, especially if I typed in Russian Шодкин.
 

WPM

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If you consider a white Caucasian indigenous then I suppose so.
 

WPM

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Minnesotan said:
He means indigenous to Russia.
While procrastinating and examining the border along the Ukraine.  :p
 WPM,

For posting political comments in the public fora (which you've been warned about a couple of times in the past), and in light of your current warning status, I am placing you on post moderation for the remainder of your current warning time: twelve (12) days. 

If you would like to appeal my decision, please PM me. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator
 

DeniseDenise

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can we please -not- get this thread moved to politics?


 

DeniseDenise

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back on topic!


although not completely about sects...here is the abstract of a paper dealing with how Russia tried to handle the 'Baptist' problem as early as 1881....meaning they were in existence well before that...since it takes time for things to become a 'problem' that deserves a campaign.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879366512000073
 

AntoniousNikolas

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DeniseDenise said:
you forgot the


Khlysts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khlysts

the Subbotniks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subbotniks

The Doukhobors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doukhobor

and my family's group, the Molokans.....
Fascinating!  Especially the Subbotniks!  I wonder how many of today's Ashkenzic Jews are actually descended from Subbotniks (and Khazars).

Based on the Wikipedia entries you linked too, all of these groups are offshoots of Orthodoxy even if they aren't "riffs" on Orthodoxy though.  I'm guessing the same is also true for the groups my old teacher introduced us to in undergrad.  They are to Orthodoxy what various extreme Protestant sects are to Roman Catholicism, right (though less numerous and having less of an effect on the society as a whole)?  The groups you linked to are apparently still extant, right?  Not so for the groups I mentioned though, I'd imagine?  (Some of them seem to have wiped themselves out!)

DeniseDenise said:
I do also really like this quote from this page

http://www.berdyaev.com/berdiaev/berd_lib/1916_252a.html

Russian sectarianism -- is an integral part of the spiritual life of the Russian nation. A quite unique spiritual array can be discovered in Russian sectarianism -- the Russian thirst for righteous life, life freed from this world, the thirst for a life in God, but distorted and impaired. The sectarian consciousness often becomes affected by rationalism, but there is a great mystical thirst, hidden within some of our sects. The sectarian -- is a man, struck and wounded by the untruth (external) of the Orthodox mode of life and the churchly order of things. The Russian sectarian is not to be reconciled with the relative, he adapts the absolute towards the relative, he wants absolute life. And in each sect there is a piece of fragmented truth, there is a distorted truth. The sectarian is inclined always to affirm a portion of the truth exclusively and fully, he mistakes one ray of light for the sun.
This is an awesome quote.  In this sense - though they would deny it - the mystical Orthodox origins of the sectarians shines right through.

DeniseDenise said:
I have more resources but i will let others play as well...;)
Yeah, I'm waiting for Kelly to post a clever gif illustrating the practices of the Ticklers and their wives.  Hopefully not of the Skopzi though!  :laugh:

rakovsky said:
I couldn't find a Shodkin sect on the internet, especially if I typed in Russian Шодкин.
I'm guessing they exterminated themselves?  ???

WPM said:
If you consider a white Caucasian indigenous then I suppose so.
What?  So, white people aren't really indigenous to anywhere, right?  They just materialize from thin air when you think too long about cheese.

WPM said:
While procrastinating and examining the border along the Ukraine.  :p
What?

DeniseDenise said:
can we please -not- get this thread moved to politics?
Yeah, seriously.  Please don't drag politics into this thread.  It has nothing to do with politics, and I'm trying to learn something here.

DeniseDenise said:
back on topic!


although not completely about sects...here is the abstract of a paper dealing with how Russia tried to handle the 'Baptist' problem as early as 1881....meaning they were in existence well before that...since it takes time for things to become a 'problem' that deserves a campaign.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879366512000073
Interesting, but that's another thread.  I'm genuinely interested in the indigenous sects.  Heterodox "evangelists" no so much.  :)
 

DeniseDenise

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go read that last one.....it mixes in with 'they realize how much these groups had intertwined with the 'baptists' due to similarity in belief....

anyhow...with one small favor.....and that is to -please- tread gently here...-these- are my people, my relatives...and a huge part of who i am....I do not -often- hand out links (despite them being easily found)  to groups of Orthodox people online because hearing a diatribe about heresy is really not -why- i would expose them. 


I can affirm that there are still indeed Molokans in Russia (and what -was- Russia at the time, i.e. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Georgia, etc)  still.

Most of the articles i have -on hand- and in English are of the former Empire....but I know of similar in Russia...they just don't garner 'articles about the strange russians'

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2012/12/last-molokans
http://www.rferl.org/media/photogallery/village-armenia-molokans-christians/24974599.html
http://www.todayszaman.com/_molokan-community-still-exists-in-kars-despite-decreasing-number_285869.html

I would also believe the case to be similar with Doukhobors and Subbotniki but I don't have as much 'proof'


 

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Yeah, I'm waiting for Kelly to post a clever gif illustrating the practices of the Ticklers and their wives.  Hopefully not of the Skopzi though!
Give me some time, I might be able to whip something up. ;)

I have a book called "An Underground Education" that has a bunch of odd historical tidbits in it - they have a section on religion with a little bit about the Skoptsy. They included a picture of a male who had been castrated as a child. He grew abnormally long limbs as a result. Totally bizarre.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Denise, believe me, I appreciate your contributions here and I'll tread as lightly as possible.  :)

DeniseDenise said:
go read that last one.....it mixes in with 'they realize how much these groups had intertwined with the 'baptists' due to similarity in belief....
I did read it, and I noticed that.  I understand the relevance.  I just really - really- don't want to get into the whole "Protestant 'missions' to the Orthodox" discussion for the 83rd time in this thread.  This really isn't the place for it.  I'm genuinely interested in independent Russian sects that developed on their own, apart from Western influence.

DeniseDenise said:
anyhow...with one small favor.....and that is to -please- tread gently here...-these- are my people, my relatives...and a huge part of who i am....I do not -often- hand out links (despite them being easily found)  to groups of Orthodox people online because hearing a diatribe about heresy is really not -why- i would expose them.
Absolutely.  I totally get that.  That's why I'd really like to leave the Western "missionaries" out of the equation as much as possible unless it pertains specifically to their interaction with the non-Orthodox sects and not to attempts to convert the Orthodox.

Thanks very much for sharing.  Would you care to tell us a bit about your family history?  Did you grow up with any of the tradition?

kelly said:
Yeah, I'm waiting for Kelly to post a clever gif illustrating the practices of the Ticklers and their wives.  Hopefully not of the Skopzi though!
Give me some time, I might be able to whip something up. ;)
You have yet to disappoint me.  I still search through old threads sometimes just to see your clever contributions.  ;D

kelly said:
I have a book called "An Underground Education" that has a bunch of odd historical tidbits in it - they have a section on religion with a little bit about the Skoptsy. They included a picture of a male who had been castrated as a child. He grew abnormally long limbs as a result. Totally bizarre.
I'm not sure exactly how that works, but okay...
 

DeniseDenise

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Denise, believe me, I appreciate your contributions here and I'll tread as lightly as possible.  :)

DeniseDenise said:
anyhow...with one small favor.....and that is to -please- tread gently here...-these- are my people, my relatives...and a huge part of who i am....I do not -often- hand out links (despite them being easily found)  to groups of Orthodox people online because hearing a diatribe about heresy is really not -why- i would expose them.
Absolutely.  I totally get that.  That's why I'd really like to leave the Western "missionaries" out of the equation as much as possible unless it pertains specifically to their interaction with the non-Orthodox sects and not to attempts to convert the Orthodox.

Thanks very much for sharing.  Would you care to tell us a bit about your family history?  Did you grow up with any of the tradition?  How did you come to Orthodoxy.
Sure...to start with....I am only -half- Molokan...in that my mother left to marry an outsider (they don't really marry outside, or take 'converts') so while I was raised around my grandmother and cousins and everyone else......and while I did attend services with my grandmother while i was young, I could not be considered an -active- member...if such a thing exists...but I still attend family funerals etc....

My family left the Russian empire -just- at the start of the 20th century..so very late 1890's to 1900's. They by that time were living in villages all over the greater Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan areas.....my specific family lived in Kars, which is now Turkey.
My grandmother who was born in 1913 was born in Los Angeles if that helps place things better time wise.

here is a short bio blurb about one of the men who helped them leave the empire...because he could -read and write-  http://www.doukhobor.org/Samarin.htm  (disclosure: he also happened to be my great-great-great grandfather  ;D)

My grandmother grew up in a colony in Baja California after they figured out Los Angeles was not all that fabulous for farming. :D

So while I will say that my personal beliefs have never been precisely that of the Molokans, and rather a more generalized Protestant set.....that doesn't mean I don't find some things to be very proud of in their world view and -cultural- values.


hmmm Orthodoxy....well you always know what you are not.....don't you?
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Again, thanks very much for sharing.  I tried to ninja edit the "How'd you come to Orthodoxy?" question as soon as I realized that it would lead more to a personal conversion story as opposed to anything to do with the topic, but call me Baba Looey, 'cause you were too quick on the draw for me!  ;D

So, what in your experience were Molokan services like?  How do they compare to other forms of worship you've experienced or are familiar with?
 

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Here is an article suggesting that Molokans, or rather an offshoot of them known as the "Jumpers", may have actually had a more widespread influence than anyone realizes.

It starts by talking about Patr. Nikon and the Old Believers schism. This is the event that seems to have "opened the floodgates", so to speak, to an array of ever more unusual Russian sects and cults. It's not unlike how in the West, the Reformation (which began with Luther and Zwingli) catalyzed the formation of extreme Anabaptist sects, some of whom were no less strange than their Russian counterparts.

Dissent only breeds more dissent, it seems. The only difference is that in Russia, it was Nikon and the church hierarchy who reformed the church (from the top down), and the first dissenters (Avvakum, et al.) were those who rejected any reforms, the opposite of the situation in the West.

Reportedly, at least some of the Molokans abstained from eating pork.

Note: the main body of the article is from 1918, was written by Lillian Sokoloff and uses the term "Greek Catholics" to mean Orthodox. There is also a postscript which doesn't seem to have been written by Sokoloff and may be newer. But, it's very interesting nonetheless:

While there are still numerous groups in the U.S. and in Canada that are direct descendants of the Molokan and Doukhabor sects, their influence may well have been enormous on what is today generally referred to as Pentecostalism.

The Molokans, especially of the "Jumper" variety, had a long history of laying claim to modern-day manifestations of the apostolic gifts, including healings, tongues, etc. When they moved to Los Angeles, California, most settled near the lumber yard that employed many of the men, a lumbar yard situated in close proximity to Azusa Street. A year after the Molokans arrived, the "Azusa Street Revival", considered by many to be the birthplace of American Pentecostalism, burst forth onto the American church scene. The "revival" continued with three services a day for nearly three years.

It is an established fact that many of the Russian Molokans became a part of the Azusa Street Revival, but it remains a mystery as to whether they were converts or, after a fashion, the founders.
 

DeniseDenise

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Again, thanks very much for sharing.  I tried to ninja edit the "How'd you come to Orthodoxy?" question as soon as I realized that it would lead more to a personal conversion story as opposed to anything to do with the topic, but call me Baba Looey, 'cause you were too quick on the draw for me!  ;D

So, what in your experience were Molokan services like?  How do they compare to other forms of worship you've experienced or are familiar with?

hehe no big deal...i said what i said on it...because honestly there is a huge element of -that- to it....imagine spending your life telling people that your family is Russian.

Random nice people   'So you are Jewish?'

Me: 'erm no....'

Random Nice people:  Russian Orthodox, that must be it!

ME: 'erm......'     :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Hmmm Molokan services....are more like stripped down Orthodox ones in some ways....the things that were not 'directly' contrary were held over...but shhhh don't tell them that....it would cause a scandal   ;)



There are many of these things that if you asked someone -why- they wouldn't have an answer...

They sing the Psalms.  If you asked them, that is an -identifying- feature for them.  They sing some other songs written over time, each with usually an appropriate 'event' so you hear songs for weddings at weddings, funeral songs only at funerals...etc

A normal service has a segment where if you feel the need to be forgiven and confess.....a large group all prostrate and remain so while they tell God (and to a lesser extent the church) their sins and repent of them.  They then turn to each of the 4 directions asking the people in that direction to forgive them (paralleling the 'forgive me brothers and sisters portion in the DL a bit).


Upon arrival at the church for service, members typically wait outside until a small group gathers. By custom, a woman must be escorted in by a male. When the group decides to enter, the men proceed women, with the eldest male or a visiting guest elder at the head. The 'lead' man of the entering group says a prayer before the whole group sits down.

The congregation is arranged with the women to one side and the men around a table located toward one corner of the room away from the entry. The elders who sit in the front row around three sides of the table are called the pristol (literally: “at the table”). They are arranged in five groups  by their functional position: (1) the presviter, presiding elder or minister, sits at the end of the table facing the congregation, and at his side, if the congregation is large, is a pomoshchnik, helper; to the presviter’s right are (2) the besedniki, speakers, and (3) the pevtsy, singers; and to the presviter’s left are (4) the skazateli, readers, and, (5) the proroki, prophets. There are usually more singers than any other group. Male members and guests with no rank will sit in rows behind the readers and prophets. Some elders like to sit along the wall for back support, and many congregations have added bench cushions in recent decades.

Women sit facing the presviter and a few feet from the men. Leading women singers sit in their front row closest to the male singers. Others behind them.

The table that has the Bible on it (with Apocrypha so unlike most 'Protestants')as well as a collection of song texts (The Sionskii Pesennik), and the book of prayers (Molitvennik).The presviter coordinates the service and recites the prayers. He rarely conducts a sermon. That function is usually performed by the speakers who read from and elaborate on the Bible in Russian.

My family belong to a subset called 'Jumpers' , who sometimes  'jump' in the Spirit to the singing.  I can only say -think- Old Historical Quakers more than modern pentecostal....

After the main service they sit down to eat.  They do not even do anything resembling a communion (just like they don't Baptize), but they do have a communal meal every single service.

Each church has a large kitchen to prepare (obedy), meals. Sawhorses and tabletop planks stored to the side in the church are assembled with the benches into rows of tables for these meals. A typical meal consists of four courses: (1) chai, tea, with sugar and sweets (pastries, dates, raisins, nuts, etc.) and a salad (cut lettuce, tomatoes, and cucumbers); (2) borshcht, usually a beef broth vegetable soup, without beets as in the South Russian style, or lapsha, thin egg noodles in a beef broth; (3) miaso, meat, usually boiled then broiled beef, but sometimes chicken or lamb and, (4) fruit in season. Except for the soups, which are ladled into individual bowls and eaten with traditional wooden Russian spoons (loshki), the meal is eaten with the fingers.

During the meal there are additional speakers and songs, so it is not a coffee hour but a bit more -part- of the service.

Compared to say a modern megachurch...its positively regimented and stiff.....I grew up very much with a set of rules about what you could do.......(oddly or not so oddly, a lot of them are also Orthodox 'customs'  like not crossing your legs while sitting, holding your left hand with your right one over it while you stand to pray, etc....).   In some ways...Orthodoxy without the beautifulness....no adornment in the area...its a large open square room with -no- permanent furniture at all.

They wear what you would call a stylized Russian peasant outfit to church.....married women -all- cover their hair (its a part of the wedding)

They follow Old Testament food laws, celebrate only OT feasts ....but yes...do believe in Jesus Christ.

 

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Minnesotan said:
It is an established fact that many of the Russian Molokans became a part of the Azusa Street Revival, but it remains a mystery as to whether they were converts or, after a fashion, the founders.
[/i]

Everyone commonly mentions this.....but it to me...being raised in the culture.....makes no sense.  I cannot refute it with facts.....but...

For the most part, Molokan services are closed.  Molokans in general do not marry outsiders, do not -care- what other people are doing. and so forth.

While there are always 'leavers' of the group, the notion that any large number of them did so -that- early on...(the revival started in 1906)  is for me, mind boggling.  They wouldn't have even spoken English at that point, having arrived in Los Angeles a year to a few years before.

For me...the 'it is a fact that.....'  seems mind boggling....

(please note i am not saying you are incorrect in posting it...its out there, I just have a hard time reconciling that idea)
 

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kelly said:
Yeah, I'm waiting for Kelly to post a clever gif illustrating the practices of the Ticklers and their wives.  Hopefully not of the Skopzi though!
Give me some time, I might be able to whip something up. ;)

I have a book called "An Underground Education" that has a bunch of odd historical tidbits in it - they have a section on religion with a little bit about the Skoptsy. They included a picture of a male who had been castrated as a child. He grew abnormally long limbs as a result. Totally bizarre.
One of the best books I have read, I lent my copy to friend 9 years ago and never got it back.  :mad:
 

kelly

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Avdima said:
kelly said:
Yeah, I'm waiting for Kelly to post a clever gif illustrating the practices of the Ticklers and their wives.  Hopefully not of the Skopzi though!
Give me some time, I might be able to whip something up. ;)

I have a book called "An Underground Education" that has a bunch of odd historical tidbits in it - they have a section on religion with a little bit about the Skoptsy. They included a picture of a male who had been castrated as a child. He grew abnormally long limbs as a result. Totally bizarre.

One of the best books I have read, I lent my copy to friend 9 years ago and never got it back.  :mad:

I got it as a Christmas present my senior year of high school. A lot of different classmates borrowed it but it safely made its way back to me and is on my bookshelf. I definitely recommend it to anybody who likes the weird side of history.
 

Hawkeye

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While it doesn't go into particular depth in many cases, I always recommend reading Irish Melkite's Resources on Old Believers/Ritualists & Related Bodies, over at byzcath.org, for some general information. If nothing else, it provides for an interesting, if light, read.

Of particular note in this case would be the one on the Eretiki (Heretics) as it focuses on the sects which deviated most from Orthodoxy.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Denise, thanks very much for the exhaustive description of the services and of life in the community.  My heart aches for these folks, and I wish there was a way they could return to Holy Orthodoxy.  Have you ever considered a mission to them?  Is it too much of a sore spot?  Because of old scars, does the community regard Orthodoxy with fear or even a degree of loathing as many Protestants are "Romophobic"?

I'm glad you don't accept the hypothesis about Molokan involvement in Azusa Street.  I've studied that movement in depth - especially as it concerns Seymour and Mason (and to some degree Parham) - and I can say without a doubt that the spirit motivating it was not the Holy Spirit.

Hawkeye, thanks for the links.  That was a goldmine.  :)

Edit: Just connecting the dots here, I'm beginning to think that Avdima loaned his copy of An Underground Education to someone who gave it to someone else who gave it to someone else who later gave it to Kelly as a Christmas present.  It's one of those long, involved stories where the thing changes hands a million times and a bunch of famous historical figures and celebrities are involved in the chain.  Like the Hope Diamond or Moe's bar rag.  I'm pretty sure Kevin Bacon and Mor Ephrem are in there at some point.
 

DeniseDenise

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I have been Orthodox for *looks at calendar* 4 months.

The best and perhaps only thing I can do is -be a good Orthodox Christian- and let my relatives see that.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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;D  I didn't realize the chrism was still wet on your forehead!  Χρόνια Πολλά!

How does your family feel about your entering into Orthodoxy?
 

DeniseDenise

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Antonious Nikolas said:
;D  I didn't realize the chrism was still wet on your forehead!  Χρόνια Πολλά!

How does your family feel about your entering into Orthodoxy?
;D

My mom is supportive if a bit befuddled.  She came to my baptism, but we have a series of conversations going....

DeniseDenise: Church was fine, it was a feast today
DeniseMom: oh? what for?
DeniseDenise: The finding of the sash that closed the robe of the man who stood next to Jesus on the road that day*
DeniseMom: That's a feast? You have too many of those for no good reason.


*not a real Feast...but it might as well be for what she hears when i try to explain things like 'today we celebrated the finding of the Cross' or 'the 2nd finding of the head of St. John the Baptist'


My extended family knows, but since I am a 'non-player' in terms of being able to actively -be- a Molokan in religious terms...it is of less relevance than if I had joined something with no God, no Trinity and no Jesus.....because I still believe in those, that's all that can be expected of me....;)

 

AntoniousNikolas

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DeniseDenise said:
My mom is supportive if a bit befuddled.  She came to my baptism, but we have a series of conversations going....

DeniseDenise: Church was fine, it was a feast today
DeniseMom: oh? what for?
DeniseDenise: The finding of the sash that closed the robe of the man who stood next to Jesus on the road that day*
DeniseMom: That's a feast? You have too many of those for no good reason.


*not a real Feast...but it might as well be for what she hears when i try to explain things like 'today we celebrated the finding of the Cross' or 'the 2nd finding of the head of St. John the Baptist'

Wait, that's not a real feast?!?  I've got to log off and try to catch the mailman before all my "Blessed Feast of the Finding of the Sash that Closed the Robe of the Man Who Stood Next to Our Lord Who Stood Next to the Man Who Stoned the Woman Who Slept With the Man Who Lived in the House that Jack Built" cards go out!

DeniseDenise said:
My extended family knows, but since I am a 'non-player' in terms of being able to actively -be- a Molokan in religious terms...it is of less relevance than if I had joined something with no God, no Trinity and no Jesus.....because I still believe in those, that's all that can be expected of me....;)
Are you saying you're a non-player because you became Orthodox, or you were already considered a non-player because you're "mixed" (i.e. Mom married an outsider)?

Either way, you've always been a player in my book, D!  ;)

 

DeniseDenise

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Antonious Nikolas said:
DeniseDenise said:
My mom is supportive if a bit befuddled.  She came to my baptism, but we have a series of conversations going....

DeniseDenise: Church was fine, it was a feast today
DeniseMom: oh? what for?
DeniseDenise: The finding of the sash that closed the robe of the man who stood next to Jesus on the road that day*
DeniseMom: That's a feast? You have too many of those for no good reason.


*not a real Feast...but it might as well be for what she hears when i try to explain things like 'today we celebrated the finding of the Cross' or 'the 2nd finding of the head of St. John the Baptist'

Wait, that's not a real feast?!?  I've got to log off and try to catch the mailman before all my "Blessed Feast of the Finding of the Sash that Closed the Robe of the Man Who Stood Next to Our Lord Who Stood Next to the Man Who Stoned the Woman Who Slept With the Man Who Lived in the House that Jack Built" cards go out!
as long as I was getting one....all shall be forgiven    :laugh:

DeniseDenise said:
My extended family knows, but since I am a 'non-player' in terms of being able to actively -be- a Molokan in religious terms...it is of less relevance than if I had joined something with no God, no Trinity and no Jesus.....because I still believe in those, that's all that can be expected of me....;)
Antonious Nikolas said:
Are you saying you're a non-player because you became Orthodox, or you were already considered a non-player because you're "mixed" (i.e. Mom married an outsider)?
The latter.   In terms of the US based Molokans (specifically Jumpers since that's what my family is and is thus all i can speak to) there are very few....people of any mixed heritage that would be accepted as a 'member' type status.  (family occasions aside)

I have it extremely lucky.  I have always been part of my family and vice versa...this is unfortunately not always the case when children leave....often they were (in my moms day, i cant speak for now) either never spoken to again or at the very least it was whispered about in dark corners..

My grandmother was simple, in the very best way, and thus never rejected my mom and thus me.  I grew up around her, she used to take me to church, etc.  She treated me no different than my cousins.
 

DeniseDenise

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anyhow...back onto sects....the gold standard in academic writing (in English) on the topic is Dr. Breyfogle

http://history.osu.edu/directory/breyfogle1

Currently at Ohio state...

 
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