Is Abortion actually murder?

sprtslvr1973

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    If it is why do we not treat it as such? If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands? Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
    I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience. If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention? For illustration, to me shooting and killing Adolf Eichmann walking to his mail box may not be ethical, but to stop him from ordering a shipment of Jewish civilians to Auschwitz is entirely justified. There are options of course. Rather than killing someone, other forms of incapacitation may be considered. Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
    All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison. Therefore, while I respect the person who has acted as a vigilante, I can not in good conscience recommend some one else take the risk that I can not.
    Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?
 

Alveus Lacuna

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sprtslvr1973 said:
Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?
I would say that the fetus is an actual person feeling the pain of being killed. That being said, I'm also not going out and attacking soldiers for killing in what I consider to be an unjust conflict. I'm also not reducing my oil usage that fuels the guarding of the new pipeline in east Afghanistan. So I'm a big bundle of rationalizations and contradictions. Basically, I'm a human being.
 

yeshuaisiam

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As a parent of 5 children and having lost 4 nieces or nephews to abortion, I can assure you it is murder.
We should treat it as such.  It is wicked, evil, and vile.


There is no excuse for this wretchedness being legal.
 

kevlev

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A woman who deliberately destroys a fetus is answerable for murder. And any fine distinction between its being completely formed or unformed is not admissible among us.

-Saint Basil the Great
 

Achronos

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The reason why it's not treated as murder is because there are too many people who erroneously believe it to be not.
 

Asteriktos

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People seem to be answering the thread title, but not the OP...
 

Kerdy

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sprtslvr1973 said:
If it is why do we not treat it as such?
Our society suffers from what I have tagged, the “Me Syndrome”.  What’s in it for me?  What do I get out of it?  How does this affect me?  It’s all about “me” and no one else.  Even parenting suffers from this affliction.  You see it in almost every aspect of modern life today, which is why I believe America is falling into shambles.  Homosexuals say they were born that way thinking this somehow justifies their life choices of sin.  Parents kill their living children because its inconvenient to have them any longer.  Pregnancy and motherhood suffer as well.  I have heard women actually, in defense of abortion, ask why they should destroy their bodies just to have a child ignoring their own actions caused their condition.  Lack of responsibility.  The world is a sick and evil place.  Since most of society suffers from the Me Syndrome, they see no problem with killing unborn children.  They have convinced themselves it is not only ok, but the child is not real.  Lately, some have even been so bold as to proclaim a born child is not a viable personality and can be killed up to two years old.  Evil controls the country and it is only getting stronger.  Those of us who see it for what it really is are the minority.  Abortion has absolutely become birth control.

sprtslvr1973 said:
If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands?
Because this creates Anarchy, which easily spirals out of control.  At least now we still maintain some semblance of authority.

sprtslvr1973 said:
Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
But then, we become the criminal and the scourge of society and culture.  Usually those who conduct this type of action are unstable anyway and dangerous to anyone.  Abortion is only a means for them to focus their aggression.  Until we are able to change laws, it is a losing battle to engage in this type of warfare.  At best, the person or persons will be called extremists or religious zealots.

sprtslvr1973 said:
I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience.
One of the things I believe the Roman Catholic Church as gotten right is this.  Their response to abortion is respectable.  A very dear friend of mine who is Catholic is very involved in prayer vigils at abortion clinics and state buildings, etc.  Peaceful, but they let their voices be heard in the silence of prayer.  No violence, no loudness, only peaceful non-resistance to show there is a better way.  My wife and I once convinced a young woman to not abort and instead give the child over for adoption simply by talking to her for a few hours.  If you feel very strongly and want to participate, I encourage to you ask your Catholic friends if you can join.

sprtslvr1973 said:
If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention?
I see your reasoning, but again, this results in chaos, which does no good for anyone.  Until the state has its mind changed, all efforts would be wasted.

sprtslvr1973 said:
Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
What you must understand is if we all went around beating the dog snot out of people we disagreed with, we would have no time left for anything else and everyone would be engaged in fighting and hurting one another.  Violence is rarely the right response and only as a last resort when all lesser means have failed.  Vandalizing machinery still gets people hurt.  If your goal is to end abortion, you must win the hearts of others and convince their minds it is wrong.  Being a vigilante would not accomplish this goal.  They would only think you were a nutjob and dismiss anything you had to say.

sprtslvr1973 said:
All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison.
Sounds like a good reason to me.  

sprtslvr1973 said:
Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?
This is the multi-billion dollar question.  When does life actually begin?  Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different answers.  Until we know for certain, I say be cautious and start at conception, to make sure we do not kill anyone.

Since we are talking about this, I was convinced by the abovementioned Catholic friend the abortion pill is also wrong.  Took some time, but he won me over.  I mention this because this is how you will change a person’s mind.  
 

choy

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I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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sprtslvr1973 said:
     If it is why do we not treat it as such? If a woman and her "doctor" actually commit murder, with the state's permission if not actual blessing, why do we not take the law into our own hands? Moreover, if a person shoots and kills an abortionist in order to literally save the lives of children, we should reach out to him with some degree of empathy.
     I have often pondered in my head the right form and level of civil disobedience. If the abortion industry is in fact the  holocaust that it's been called, is it not justified to kill the murderer, not so much as means of punishment, but rather as a form of prevention? For illustration, to me shooting and killing Adolf Eichmann walking to his mail box may not be ethical, but to stop him from ordering a shipment of Jewish civilians to Auschwitz is entirely justified. There are options of course. Rather than killing someone, other forms of incapacitation may be considered. Examples include injuring an abortionists hands or eyes so that he or she has to give their practice. I have also pondered forms of non-violent methods such as vandalizing machinery.
     All the while I have abstained from any of these actions. I'd like to give a more noble reason, but the truth is I am too cowardly and selfish to face prison. Therefore, while I respect the person who has acted as a vigilante, I can not in good conscience recommend some one else take the risk that I can not.
     Or is it possible that many pro-Life advocates in fact see a fetus as a 'potential' person, rather than an actual person?

These are excellent yet difficult questions. I wrestled with them for many years, and ultimately this issue led me to become a pacifist. If violence is ever justifiable in order to save the innocent, then most surely it is justifiable to save the unborn from the brutality of abortion. However, I am convinced that violent solutions are never Christian solutions. Somehow we must try to fight, defend, and rescue our neighbors without killing our neighbors. Both the unborn child and the abortionist are our neighbors, and both need deliverance and salvation. I wish more Christians had the honesty and courage to ask and wrestle with the questions you have asked here.

"Lord have mercy."


Selam
 

BTRAKAS

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Look at ultrasound videos, and you decide, if that baby (promoted as a fetus by abortionists) is taken out of the mother's womb, and laid down, what would you see happening?  

Why do you think supporters of abortion do not want the mother to be shown what is in her womb?  

So, is abortion murder just because what is removed from the womb is not necessarily seen?
 

JamesRottnek

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choy said:
I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
Does killing equal murder?  Are soldiers murderers?  Are policemen murderers?  Have you murdered someone when they die because you crashed your car into them?
 

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JamesRottnek said:
choy said:
I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
Does killing equal murder?  Are soldiers murderers?  Are policemen murderers?  Have you murdered someone when they die because you crashed your car into them?
Not sure I'm quite following, other than the part about not all killing is necessarily murder. 

I don't think soldiers and policemen (who take lives in legitimate circumstances; soldiers and policemen are not immune from committing murder) , or people who accidentally kill other humans can readily be compared with abortion doctors.  Aren't they doing pretty different things, the first two being somewhat sanctioned by the Church, and the latter being an unintentional killing?

 

choy

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JamesRottnek said:
choy said:
I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
Does killing equal murder?  Are soldiers murderers?  Are policemen murderers?  Have you murdered someone when they die because you crashed your car into them?
Abortion is a deliberate act on an innocent life.  Abortion is not an accident.  The term is miscarriage for accidents.  Abortion is certainly not something policemen and soldiers do.  They kill as part of their duty to protect.  Who are we protecting when we abort?  The personal, selfish interests of the mother?  When policemen and soldiers kill, it is for the benefit of society, and not just one or two people.
 

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choy said:
JamesRottnek said:
choy said:
I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
Does killing equal murder?  Are soldiers murderers?  Are policemen murderers?  Have you murdered someone when they die because you crashed your car into them?
Abortion is a deliberate act on an innocent life.  Abortion is not an accident.  The term is miscarriage for accidents.  Abortion is certainly not something policemen and soldiers do.  They kill as part of their duty to protect.  Who are we protecting when we abort?  The personal, selfish interests of the mother?  When policemen and soldiers kill, it is for the benefit of society, and not just one or two people.
Is it still murder when both the baby and the mother are going to die, and the only way to save the mother is an abortion?
 

Cognomen

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Russell said:
choy said:
JamesRottnek said:
choy said:
I am a staunch Pro-Lifer.  Definitely abortion is murder.  Any Christian cannot claim otherwise.  The opening chapters of the Gospel of St. Luke is a testament to life in the womb.  St. John the Forerunner received the Holy Spirit in the womb, and while within the womb he recognized the presence of Christ also in the womb.  Within the Theotokos was not a clump of cells who became Jesus at the Nativity.  He was God incarnate from the Annunciation.
Does killing equal murder?  Are soldiers murderers?  Are policemen murderers?  Have you murdered someone when they die because you crashed your car into them?
Abortion is a deliberate act on an innocent life.  Abortion is not an accident.  The term is miscarriage for accidents.  Abortion is certainly not something policemen and soldiers do.  They kill as part of their duty to protect.  Who are we protecting when we abort?  The personal, selfish interests of the mother?  When policemen and soldiers kill, it is for the benefit of society, and not just one or two people.
Is it still murder when both the baby and the mother are going to die, and the only way to save the mother is an abortion?
According to the logic of trying to prevent death, it seems not.  I'm not saying it's good or preferred, just that it wouldn't be murder according to the other examples.
 

choy

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Russell said:
Is it still murder when both the baby and the mother are going to die, and the only way to save the mother is an abortion?
Yes.  Because doctors have attested that there is no such scenario.
 

choy

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Cognomen said:
According to the logic of trying to prevent death, it seems not.  I'm not saying it's good or preferred, just that it wouldn't be murder according to the other examples.
I have yet to come across a concrete example where aborting the baby is the only way to save the mother.  It is always hypothetical, and some doctors have already come out and said that no such scenario exists.

An ectopic pregnancy is a different thing.  The fetus is implanted in the Fallopian tube where it has zero chance of survival.  It is dying if not already dead.
 

choy

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Cognomen said:
Ok, I guess I was just responding to the hypothetical then.
I don't want to claim to be an authority on the matter, but that is what I have learned so far.   As I said, I am staunchly pro-life.  I like reading up on things like this.  And so far there has been no concrete evidence of abortion as an only option to save the mother.
 

Kerdy

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Kerdy said:
Since we are talking about this, I was convinced by the abovementioned Catholic friend the abortion pill is also wrong.  Took some time, but he won me over.  I mention this because this is how you will change a person’s mind.  
I mean birth control pill.  I always knew the day after pill was wrong.
 
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