• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Is Grace created or uncreated ? Another excellent talk

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
Comparing the dogmatic Church teaching and consesus of the fathers and councils VS. the dogmatic teaching of the latin west in the second millenium, it doesnt get more clear than that.

This is the topic on which romancatoliks have no answer, simply because non exist for them to give, because they are on the wrong side of it.
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Age
32
Website
marianapostolate.com
If Roman Catholics have no answer, how come I, a Roman Catholic or Catholic Christian, am answering it? Lol.

If we consider Grace in its Source, Grace is uncreated in its origin. Grace are like the rays of a sun. Thus, if the sun were uncreated, the rays too would be uncreated along with it.

But when we consider Grace in its recipient, Grace has a beginning in creatures. Thus creatures can pass from being out of the State of Grace, or in the State of mortal sin, into the State of Grace, which is Justification. Hence, we say Grace has a beginning in creatures, since they can lose it, since it can begin to exist in them, etc etc.

Thus, by the continuing of the analogy, as the sun's rays affect and impact plants that receive them, and are converted by photosynthesis into chemical energy, so also in a similar way, the Grace of God begins to produce its effects and operates in us, energizing our supernatural activities.

It's also worth noting that the Council of Florence, which in other respects gave detailed doctrinal formulas (for e.g. on Azyme Bread, Purgatory, Filioque etc/the disputed issues) but deliberately passed this one over in silence, as the Council must have felt the different approaches of East and West are not irreconciliable here.

That's the, or at least a, Roman Catholic perspective. There, I said it. Now what.

God Bless.
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
If Roman Catholics have no answer, how come I, a Roman Catholic or Catholic Christian, am answering it? Lol.
You have said this before so i am aware of that opinion, but this is not what the the middle age papacy have dogmatized, the discussion is attacking these particular dogmatic teachings.

Your opinion is not matching middle age papal dogmas where grace that we receive is defined as "truly distinct from God (in latin understanding this means not God)", "accident" and "not the justice by which God is just"

From somewhere here on the discussion heads into articulating (not misrepresenting) those dogmatic statements which are supposedly binding to you, if you take your faith seriously (and i assume you do) so you are not free to articulate your own ideas about what grace is.

What's up with the intro music?
It reminds me of 8bit nintendo game themes
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
Let me use my superb paint skills to show you how i understand the positions:

Grace.png
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Age
32
Website
marianapostolate.com
Vanhyo said:
Your opinion is not matching middle age papal dogmas where grace that we receive is defined as "truly distinct from God (in latin understanding this means not God)", "accident" and "not the justice by which God is just"
Grace is truly distinct from God. In Latin Theology, God is the Substance, Grace is the Accident. The Substance remains the same, the Accidents in us can increase or decrease. In Eastern Theology, God is Essence, and God's Grace are His Energies. God remains same, but we can grow in God's Grace. The two are not irreconciliable in my view. I am aware of the medieval Papal statements and Theology takes them into account. Are you aware of anything the Council of Florence said about it? If it were an irreconciliable difference, wouldn't the Council of Florence have mentioned it?

We are approaching the question using different terminology, hence the approaches seem different. "Not the justice by which God is just, but by the justice by which He makes us just" is another indication the Catholic Church Herself distinguishes what God is in Himself, and what He communicates to us. In Latin Theology, this is sometimes referred to as "The Operations" of the Three Divine Persons.

"God's activity outside of himself. Also called divine activity ad extra in contrast with divine activity within the Trinity. The Fourth Lateran Council and the Council of Florence teach that all of God's activity outside the trinity is done simultaneously and equally by all three persons. Thus everything that God does in the world of creatures, whether naturally or supernaturally, is the operation of all three divine persons." From: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33161 The word for operations comes from the Greek word for energies.

As in everything, Theology is complex, often requires detailed patristic studies to be sure about, frequently involves knowledge of different languages etc.

God Bless.
 

Katechon

Sr. Member
Warned
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
164
Reaction score
47
Points
28
Location
Germany
Jay Dyer's best, most concise and most extensive video on this whole issue is this one:

 

xariskai

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
1,727
Reaction score
51
Points
48
Grace is truly distinct from God. In Latin Theology,
That is Dyer's point. How would you reply to his question (for simplicity I'm pasting from the transcript)
"Now every roman catholic knows that the eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ"
Is the divinity of the Euharist you consume something created or uncreated?
Does your answer circumvent Cyril's anathema at Ephesus (below) and if so how?
If God is identical with the divine essence and he is the divine essence and a strict identity, what is this "divinity" you are partaking of?

==============
TRANSCRIPT /EXERPT FROM JAY DYER VIDEO:

"Let's make this point to the roman catholics in terms of why i brought up Cyril before.As you saw the quote that i just reposted on the screen mentioned that this is tied by Cyril in the Council of Ephesus to the eucharist.

Now every roman catholic knows that the eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ The question here is in what sense is it divinity.

We agree with you roman catholics that there is a transformation of the elements during the rite during the consecration by the priest however what is what is it that makes that possible if god is an absolutely simple essence

Because i've never heard a roman catholic say that they believe that we eat the divine essence
If ala roman catholicism god is identical with the divine essence and he is the divine essence and a strict identity, what is it we're partaking of ?
is it a creature?

i'm not asking are the eucharistic elements created
i'm saying the grace that's present
because they say body blood soul divinity
-it's roman catholic

well let's remember that what cyril just said withc hristology
it's going to be perfectly parallel to what he says in the anathema of ephesus against nestorius

he says we do not offer the holylife-giving bloodless sacrifice in thechurchesas if we believe that we were offeringthe body of an ordinary man


likewise and in this in and the same is true with the precious blood
on the contrary we receive something that has become the very own body and blood of the word
who gives life to all since ordinary flesh cannot give life
and the savior himself testifies to this when he says the flesh profits nothing
it is the spirit is the spirit which gives life john 6 63
his body is understood to be and actually is the life-giving and so far it has become the very own flesh and blood of god the word
now how is it life-giving
well we just read in cyril's letter it's the uncreated glory that he transmits and shines through that human nature that he's deified

that's what we're partaking of in the eucharist
it's uncreated glory

cyril says it clearly -clear as day
ephesus is teaching this clear as day
itis the savior himself that said as the living father sent me so i lived through the father
so whoever eats me will live through me john 6 57.
is god's life a creature???
no says nestorius and those who think the same is with him have foolishly dissolved the power of the mystery this is why this anathematization has occurred and been composed
so there you see clear as day Cyril is telling you that if you don't accept the essence energy distinction then there's no way that the eucharist becomes life-giving."
==============
 
Last edited:

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
Jay Dyer's best, most concise and most extensive video on this whole issue is this one:
I don't think I've seen this one. My understanding of the differences in the E&E argument largely deals with definition. That is, we don't mean the same things with the words we are using.


 

Katechon

Sr. Member
Warned
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
164
Reaction score
47
Points
28
Location
Germany
I don't think I've seen this one. My understanding of the differences in the E&E argument largely deals with definition. That is, we don't mean the same things with the words we are using.
It really shows that you haven't seen this one.
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Age
32
Website
marianapostolate.com
Hi Xariskai. Good Question. For us Catholics, as best I understand,

(1) The Holy Eucharist is Truly and Substantially God Himself, just as, when Our Lord Jesus was born, God was Substantially Present in Bethlehem.
(2) The Grace of God communicated to us through the Eucharist are the uncreated energies of God. We can decrease or increase in this Grace.

As a Catholic from the East (India; even Constantinople is to the West of me!), I appreciate the beauty and value of Eastern Tradition. I know many Eastern Orthodox Christians here in India, all good people, mostly Syrian Orthodox. I've been to Syrian Catholic Qurbana several times as well.

I venerate St. Gregory Palamas, as all Eastern Catholics do, and I agree with and confess both (1) Divine Simplicity, and (2) Divine Operations. Divine Simplicity pertains to the Divine Essence as it is Ad Intra or Internally. Divine Operations pertain to the Manifestation of God's Grace to His Creation.

The Holy Eucharist is the very Essence of God, just as Jesus Christ is the very Essence of God. The Grace communicated to us in the Holy Eucharist are the deifying energies or life-giving operations of God. Hence, "whoever eats Me will live through Me" (St. John 6 57) etc. Hope that clears it up.

In Jesus and Mary,
Xavier. God Bless.
 

PorphyriosK

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,856
Reaction score
282
Points
83
You’re rude.
Go over to the Trad Catholic forum and see how they treat us. I was told there that Orthodoxy is a false religion on par with paganism, lol. There were also a multitude of demands that I be banned.
 

PorphyriosK

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,856
Reaction score
282
Points
83
The Church has already spoken definitively on all of this. No need to speculate.

"Again, to those same men who think and say that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is created, and thereby are constrained to believe that the very essence of God is also created, since, according to the saints, created energy evidences a created nature, whereas uncreated energy designates an uncreated nature; to these men who, in consequence, are in danger now of falling into complete atheism, who have affixed the mythology of the Greeks and the worship of creatures to the pure and spotless faith of the Christians and who do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is uncreated,

Anathema

"Again, to those same men who think and say that God has no natural energy, but is nought but essence, who suppose the Divine essence and the Divine energy to be entirely identical and undistinguishable and with no apprehensible difference between them; who call the same thing at times essence and at times energy, and who senselessly abolish the very essence of God and reduce it to non-being, for, as the teachers of the Church say, "Only non-being is deprived of an energy" to these men who think as did Sabellios, and who dare now to renew his ancient contraction, confusion and coalescing of the three Hypostases of the Godhead upon the essence and energy of God by confounding them in an equally impious manner; to these men who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that in God there is both essence and essential, natural energy, as a great many of the saints, and especially all those who gathered at the Sixth Ecumenical Council, have clearly explained with respect to Christ's two energies, both Divine and human, and His two wills; to those then who in nowise wish to comprehend that, even as there is an unconfused union of God's essence and energy, so is there also an undivided distinction between them, for, among other things, essence is cause while energy is effect, essence suffers no participation, while energy is communicable; to them, therefore, who profess such impieties"

Anathema
 

PorphyriosK

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
1,856
Reaction score
282
Points
83
I venerate St. Gregory Palamas, as all Eastern Catholics do
This is good news and I can't think of a better patron for you. I hope you take his name when you're received into Orthodoxy! ☦
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
The Church has already spoken definitively on all of this. No need to speculate.

"Again, to those same men who think and say that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is created, and thereby are constrained to believe that the very essence of God is also created, since, according to the saints, created energy evidences a created nature, whereas uncreated energy designates an uncreated nature; to these men who, in consequence, are in danger now of falling into complete atheism, who have affixed the mythology of the Greeks and the worship of creatures to the pure and spotless faith of the Christians and who do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is uncreated,

Anathema

"Again, to those same men who think and say that God has no natural energy, but is nought but essence, who suppose the Divine essence and the Divine energy to be entirely identical and undistinguishable and with no apprehensible difference between them; who call the same thing at times essence and at times energy, and who senselessly abolish the very essence of God and reduce it to non-being, for, as the teachers of the Church say, "Only non-being is deprived of an energy" to these men who think as did Sabellios, and who dare now to renew his ancient contraction, confusion and coalescing of the three Hypostases of the Godhead upon the essence and energy of God by confounding them in an equally impious manner; to these men who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that in God there is both essence and essential, natural energy, as a great many of the saints, and especially all those who gathered at the Sixth Ecumenical Council, have clearly explained with respect to Christ's two energies, both Divine and human, and His two wills; to those then who in nowise wish to comprehend that, even as there is an unconfused union of God's essence and energy, so is there also an undivided distinction between them, for, among other things, essence is cause while energy is effect, essence suffers no participation, while energy is communicable; to them, therefore, who profess such impieties"

Anathema
What are these from? Is this from the 14th century Greek council? Should I quote Trent to you, and consider you beaten?

These anathemas do no capture the Latin doctrine. Given that, are we both now in agreement?
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
Go over to the Trad Catholic forum and see how they treat us. I was told there that Orthodoxy is a false religion on par with paganism, lol. There were also a multitude of demands that I be banned.
Perhaps I am from Samaria.

I promise not to walk past you.
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
Go over to the Trad Catholic forum and see how they treat us. I was told there that Orthodoxy is a false religion on par with paganism, lol. There were also a multitude of demands that I be banned.
What business do you have there anyway ? its a complete waste of time, a nutjob world.
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
@Azurestone: video links


I wached matt's talk with the dominian priest, the start got me interested, as if someone have invested some time into the eastern views, so i thought to myself okey, maybe he knows something, lets listen more. After listening more it became clear why both views are unmixable and any attempt to mix them leads to insanity.

- In the orthodox system the fire the illuminates the iron is the uncreated energies of God, it is what salvation is, this is how you see God directly, you are engulfed in the Divine Fire.
- In the thomistic system, the dominican priest explain it, the fire is a created modification that further increase your desire for God or something in these lines. Then matts says this is more intimate way of knowing God directly. Whaaat ? In this system you only know a creature, or a creaturely feeling/modification, not God.

Now ill listen to R&T's talk, but i suspect only more confusion on the matter.
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
Now ill listen to R&T's talk, but i suspect only more confusion on the matter.

Done, my suspicion was correct. It doesn't touch on any hard issue, doesn't solve anything, it misrepresent both positions, even more confusion and fog.
 

Katechon

Sr. Member
Warned
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
164
Reaction score
47
Points
28
Location
Germany
Done, my suspicion was correct. It doesn't touch on any hard issue, doesn't solve anything, it misrepresent both positions, even more confusion and fog.
So the "Reason & Theology" standard fare.
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,225
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Age
32
Website
marianapostolate.com
Porphyriosk said:
This is good news and I can't think of a better patron for you. I hope you take his name when you're received into Orthodoxy! ☦
Thanks, Por. I love St. Gregory and I agree with him on the Divine Energies/Divine Operations. I also wish my traditional Catholic brethren were kinder and more loving toward you when you posted on FishEaters. I hope I myself was not unkind. Sadly, we are not all united in faith and love.

But I also love St. Thomas and agree with him, and St. Gregory, on Divine Simplicity. Divine Simplicity goes back to St. Irenaeus and St. Augustine, to St. John, and Our Lord Himself, and is taught imo quite clearly in Scripture and Tradition. God is a Spirit means He is not composed of parts. He is Love, St. John says; not merely that He feels loving at some time or the other but that HE IS LOVE, purely and substantially, Divine Love. That's Divine Simplicity in a nutshell. St. Augustine, a common first millenium Saint we both venerate, explains Divine Simplicity best imho. Here's the Saint in De Trinitate, Book VI, on Divine Simplicity. Do you, who believe in Divine Energies/Divine Operations, also affirm Divine Simplicity, Por? https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/130106.htm God Bless.

"8. But if it is asked how that substance is both simple and manifold: consider, first, why the creature is manifold, but in no way really simple. And first, all that is body is composed certainly of parts; so that therein one part is greater, another less, and the whole is greater than any part whatever or how great soever. For the heaven and the earth are parts of the whole bulk of the world; and the earth alone, and the heaven alone, is composed of innumerable parts; and its third part is less than the remainder, and the half of it is less than the whole; and the whole body of the world, which is usually called by its two parts, viz. the heaven and the earth, is certainly greater than the heaven alone or the earth alone. And in each several body, size is one thing, color another, shape another; for the same color and the same shape may remain with diminished size; and the same shape and the same size may remain with the color changed; and the same shape not remaining, yet the thing may be just as great, and of the same color. And whatever other things are predicated together of body can be changed either all together, or the larger part of them without the rest. And hence the nature of body is conclusively proved to be manifold, and in no respect simple.

The spiritual creature also, that is, the soul, is indeed the more simple of the two if compared with the body; but if we omit the comparison with the body, it is manifold, and itself also not simple. For it is on this account more simple than the body, because it is not diffused in bulk through extension of place, but in each body, it is both whole in the whole, and whole in each several part of it; and, therefore, when anything takes place in any small particle whatever of the body, such as the soul can feel, although it does not take place in the whole body, yet the whole soul feels it, since the whole soul is not unconscious of it. But, nevertheless, since in the soul also it is one thing to be skillful, another to be indolent, another to be intelligent, another to be of retentive memory; since cupidity is one thing, fear another, joy another, sadness another; and since things innumerable, and in innumerable ways, are to be found in the nature of the soul, some without others, and some more, some less; it is manifest that its nature is not simple, but manifold. For nothing simple is changeable, but every creature is changeable."
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
Uncreated energies are not accident or parts.

Created energies ARE accidents and parts.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
2,706
Reaction score
66
Points
48
Age
57
Location
USA
I often wonder if the past had less upheaval & dirty dealings ( all around), maybe we would be discussing matters like this as perspectives?
 

Vanhyo

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
16
Points
38
Location
Bulgaria
I often wonder if the past had less upheaval & dirty dealings ( all around), maybe we would be discussing matters like this as perspectives?
I have looked it from all angles, a charitable approach and including if i could excuse it if i was papal apologist, it doesn't work. The essence/energy distinction is tightly related to the seven ecumenical councils, most notably the 6th and also by the seventh. Without this doctrine true sanctification of matter is not possible.

RCs just have to make peace that they erred in:
Florence, that there is no salvation outside of the pope.
Trent, with created grace.

And if they erred in such super-fundamental issues, you have to wonder where else they err.
 

SirHandel6

Newbie
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Points
3
Age
19
Location
Indiana
Based on the conversation above this is obviously above my pay grade. I'm just trying to understand this somewhat. What it seems like from what I see, the EO church and the RC church both agree there is created and uncreated grace. What the trouble seems to be is what would be considered created and uncreated grace, and while Orthodox stress the uncreated grace, the Catholics stress the created grace.

Tell me if this seems right though. So we are saved by the grace of God. Now, with uncreated grace, because in the Orthodox faith we believe the graces are the energies of God, and the energies of God are God, therefore God is grace, this would mean that we are saved by the grace of God because the grace is God. Meanwhile in the Catholic Church, since I don't see much about grace being God, for them it is that we are saved by the grace of God.
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,150
Reaction score
82
Points
48
Location
wilderness
The problem with created grace is it makes god liable to matter. So next time you look at a rock and put that stone in your hand. You're holding god in your hand.
Do you see the foolishness in the dogma?
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
The way I understand created Grace is, there was a time that Grace wasn’t operating > God performs an act > there is a change (created, different than what was before).
The Grace is created only in the relation of God to the object - the action (energy) is a change (created)
Which is not how the East uses the terms.
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
The problem with created grace is it makes god liable to matter. So next time you look at a rock and put that stone in your hand. You're holding god in your hand.
Do you see the foolishness in the dogma?
Thomism specifically states that God has no relation to the world (that is, He is not in or affected by the happening of the created world).

So no, this isn’t true.
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
Uncreated energies are not accident or parts.

Created energies ARE accidents and parts.
Only if you consider the energies (actions) to be attached to the essence (being of God) like fingers.

If instead you say God’s actions (energies) are distinct (new) interactions in the world, then these are parts of God, at all. Instead, the “energies of God” is the name for the direct contact of God and the moment of that new change (created).
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,150
Reaction score
82
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Thomism specifically states that God has no relation to the world (that is, He is not in or affected by the happening of the created world).

So no, this isn’t true.
There is no way too not combine and affect the created order if you are stating that, grace is created. It's either you combine with it or you don't. The theory doesn't make sense.
If grace is created, it's has to unify otherwise it's not grace as you discribe it.
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
11
Points
38
There is no way too not combine and affect the created order if you are stating that, grace is created. It's either you combine with it or you don't. The theory doesn't make sense.
If grace is created, it's has to unify otherwise it's not grace as you discribe it.
I didn’t say God can’t touch creation. I said He isn’t affected by us - nature doesn’t control, contain, distort, or affect God/He stands outside it - so, we can never touch Him, He must touch us first.

Therefore, *if* God does interact with creation, that energy (action) is a new effect - it’s created through the power of He who is uncreated (essence).
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Warned
Post Moderated
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,150
Reaction score
82
Points
48
Location
wilderness
I didn’t say God can’t touch creation. I said He isn’t affected by us - nature doesn’t control, contain, distort, or affect God/He stands outside it - so, we can never touch Him, He must touch us first.

Therefore, *if* God does interact with creation, that energy (action) is a new effect - it’s created through the power of He who is uncreated (essence).
You just prove Orthodoxy correct. Read your own words. Grace is acted upon us as energies.
 
Top