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Is Grace created or uncreated ? Another excellent talk

Tzimis

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Only the bold lettering I highlighted. Energies aren't created, they come forth through the will of god.
 

Vanhyo

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"created grace" have nothing to do with God or salvation, its atteining creaturely modification or some positive effect, lets say you read a text that praises God and remember it, that is a created effect or modification in your brain, or maybe you stop alchoholism, that is a positive effect.

All good, but that is not what salvation is, Christ tells us that he came to give us the glory which he have with The Father before the foundation of the world, and this glory is communicated to us through the Holy Mysteries, this is how we are ultimately deified and saved.

trent clearly denies this and claims the only salvation we get is created effect and positive creaturely modification, as dogmatically defined "not the justice by which God is just"
 

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ok, tell us.
It’s been explained quite well in this thread how the grace itself isn’t created. “Created” doesn’t refer to the substance communicated itself. Created grace refers to the effect of God's self-communication within us. In other words, Catholic theology maintains that when uncreated grace, i.e. God Himself, is communicated to us, He has the effect of transforming us into His own likeness. This grace of transformation is called "created" because it is an effect of God's communication of Himself to us.


Father Louis Bouyer of blessed memory explains it this way:

"The soul, in turn, in accordance with the way in which St. Thomas thought of grace, is perfected and exceeds itself in God. In contradiction to Peter Lombard, St. Thomas did not accept the idea that grace is purely and simply the gift of the Holy Spirit, of the Third Person of the Holy Trinity as He is in Himself. It seemed to him that, in this case, man would indeed be the Temple of the Spirit, but not His living Temple, vivified by the presence of its Guest assimilating our life to His own life. The uncreated grace of the gift of the Spirit, therefore, according to Thomas, is extended in the soul itself by a created grace, that is, by a divine quality making the soul like to God, causing it to participate in His own life."

Note that for St. Thomas the doctrine of created grace is necessary to ensure the reality of man's participation in God's life. Without it, man would be a mere receptacle of the Holy Spirit. This would mean that man would not really and truly share in the life of the Holy Spirit. Man's good works would not be in any way his but only God's. There would be no synergy.
 
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Vanhyo

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Putting a creature on top of a creature doesn't deify it, that is the point. Christ did not need to come and to assume flesh, if what man gets in salvation is another creature or created modification or created effect.

There is nothing created about the grace of salvation, that is the point. If all you receive in salvation is a created effect/modification, then you do not know God anymore than any other creature or some scholastic who learns about God from a book.

Also, if what the saints receive is a created modification, then you venerating them makes you an idolater, because what they have in themselves is truly divided from God.
 

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You’re deliberately missing the point for the sake of polemics. I don’t know how many different ways we have to say this to you. The substance communicated is not created
 
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Tzimis

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Neither are it's affects, because grace is dealing with the spiritual side of man.
 

Vanhyo

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You’re deliberately missing the point for the sake of polemics. I don’t know how many different ways we have to say this to you. The substance communicated is not created
For our topic "grace" is more accurate word than "substance", because substance can also mean essence, and since we do not become consubstantial with God, it is obvious that we are not communicated the divine essence.

Trent states that we received created grace in salvation, while explicitly rejecting the idea that we receive the uncreated grace:

CAN. YOU. READ. ?
Screen Shot 04-22-21 at 03.42 PM.PNG
 

Xavier

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The Pope - but my heart is for Re-Union!
I still have not had my questions answered by Vanhyo. I'm going to number them for ease of further discussion.

1) If, from the Catholic perspective, (and St. Gregory Palamas is a Catholic Saint; the Schism itself, in my view, more correctly dates to 1484 than 1054), it was wrong to speak of Divine Energies or Divine Operations, why did the Council of Florence not require a retraction of those beliefs?

Instead, as shown earlier, from a Catholic, the Council of Florence itself distinguishes the Divine Essence as it is Ad Intra, from the Manifestation of the Divine Operations Ad Extra. Ad Intra, Divine Mercy and Divine Justice, for e.g. are Identical with the Divine Essence. In their manifestation, they differ, and thus, as St. Thomas says, the Power of God is manifested more in the Mercy of God than in the Justice of God. To take just one example.

2) Now, some argue that the Council of Trent, far from condemning, actually necessitated a distinction between God-as-He-is-in-Himself, and God-as-His-Grace-makes-us-to-be. Why? Because the Council said the Grace of Justification has as its formal Cause the Justice of God; not that by which He Himself is Just - which could be taken to mean the Divine Justice Ad Intra - but that by which He makes us Just - i.e. Ad Extra.

" The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies31 gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,32 the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,33 for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,34 merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,35 without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,36 and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,37 and according to each one's disposition and cooperation. For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts38 of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.39 For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead40 and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.41" Taken from: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=5392

So to Vanhyo: isn't the above declaration indication of something like a distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Operations?

3. As a final point, if the Grace of God in us is the Essence of God Himself, how can it be capable of increase or decrease? Because God cannot increase or decrease, but remains forever infinite. Hence, I would say, the Grace of God in us is distinct from the Essence of God. There is both an uncreated aspect of this Grace, coming from its Infinite Source in God, and a created effect in creatures, whereby this Grace begins to exist in us.

If Grace has no created effect, how can people go from being without Grace, to being with Grace? Grace begins to exist in them, so we say Grace has created effects also. It is like Water Dropping into a Glass from an Eternal Fountain. The Water was eternal, but it now has Created Effects.

God Bless.
 

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For our topic "grace" is more accurate word than "substance", because substance can also mean essence, and since we do not become consubstantial with God, it is obvious that we are not communicated the divine essence.
Substance has many meanings. The way I used it is perfectly fine and accurate.

Trent states that we received created grace in salvation, while explicitly rejecting the idea that we receive the uncreated grace
[/quoute]

CAN. YOU. READ. ?
View attachment 20563
Can you???

What you quoted literally says everything I’m saying.
 
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Tzimis

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The effects literaly show that at one time there wasn’t and now there is. Created.
What are those affects. That show up in the natural world?
 

Vanhyo

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So to Vanhyo: isn't the above declaration indication of something like a distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Operations?
No, because in orthodox theology there is no division between divine essence and the divine energies, only a distinction so in salvation God give us the uncreated light by which He is Just, that is what salvation is, it is the same glory and the same justice but not the essence. That is why there is distinction but not division, God is truly present in his saints but they are not communicated the divine essence, they don't become consubstantial with the Holy Trinity but are only deified by the uncreated energies.

Here trent refers to God being just as uncreated energy and man being justified by created energy, which is a division. The one is unlike the other.

3. As a final point, if the Grace of God in us is the Essence of God Himself, how can it be capable of increase or decrease? Because God cannot increase or decrease, but remains forever infinite. Hence, I would say, the Grace of God in us is distinct from the Essence of God. There is both an uncreated aspect of this Grace, coming from its Infinite Source in God, and a created effect in creatures, whereby this Grace begins to exist in us.
You are mixing things that are contradicting, you are sort of locked in this non-sensical system and want to make sense of it but can't because it is in error and unmixable.

If Grace has no created effect, how can people go from being without Grace, to being with Grace? Grace begins to exist in them, so we say Grace has created effects also. It is like Water Dropping into a Glass from an Eternal Fountain. The Water was eternal, but it now has Created Effects.
If salvation is having a created effect then muslim doing charity is as saved as catholic doing charity. A buddhist fasting is as saved as catholic fasting and there is no difference because both do the same created activity. But this is not at all true, because salvation is of grace and not by works*, that is right. Works are needed only in the context of being part of the Church, as means for receiving that grace but works by themselves and outside of the context of the Church are 100% meaningless and merit no grace or salvation. Muslim doing charity is still enemy of God. A buddist fasting is wasting his health away for vanity. In the end, Christ will ask us what did we do with the coin He gave us(that is why baptism is necessary, some don't even get a coin),or do we have enough oils in our lamps ? The coin and the oil here is the divine and uncreated grace, which the Good servant increased through God pleasing works.

I do not say that God doesn't give people created gifts of sorts, what i say is they are not related to salvation.

Also if salvation is created grace then it looks awfully much like predestination, if God can create love in you for him, without you doing anything so he can get you started, then why doesn't he does this with everyone else ? Salvation is cooperation with the uncreated, not a creaturely modification to your volition.
 
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Go over to the Trad Catholic forum and see how they treat us. I was told there that Orthodoxy is a false religion on par with paganism, lol. There were also a multitude of demands that I be banned.
The tide is turning in that respect where I visit. Yes you have the die hard imperialists, but cmon those folks have their own issues, namely not doing the most important thing which is giving your heart to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I have looked it from all angles, a charitable approach and including if i could excuse it if i was papal apologist, it doesn't work. The essence/energy distinction is tightly related to the seven ecumenical councils, most notably the 6th and also by the seventh. Without this doctrine true sanctification of matter is not possible.

RCs just have to make peace that they erred in:
Florence, that there is no salvation outside of the pope.
Trent, with created grace.

And if they erred in such super-fundamental issues, you have to wonder where else they err.
The first part is solved, no one is getting into Heaven without accepting every last snippet of truth, and even one that has a perfect understanding the the office of the Bishop of Rome, and accepts it will have a mountain of truth to accept, especially about themselves, I dont see how Catholics and Orthodox are at a disadvantage here, both will have a mountain to climb.

I was not aware of the second part.

And as a Catholic I only use the term uncreated grace and receive zero pushback.
 
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I think one spot where Catholics have struggled is the mass scaling the western Church did, and really losing the sense of community in the Churches. Everything scaled for mass production. I think one spot where the Orthodox have struggled is uniformity at the top, seems to be only present in particular countries, like Russia, which is so great to see, the liturgy they did at the Russia Military Cathedral last June-ish was beautiful. Also the devotional life options, the western Church has an amazing devotional tradition in my opinion, but Orthodox and even Byzantine Catholics are like, nope, not doing that, but on the other hand Catholics although are ignorant to some of the devotional traditions of Orthodox, do not seem to have the same attitude.

I went to a Greek Orthodox for first Sunday of lent + Victory of the Orthodox feast, not a huge fan of the Greek tradition, not that is not beautiful, it is, just seems to be more passive than other liturgical traditions in the East.

Such a misunderstanding of what the task of the Church is, the path to salvation, the ultimate goals of Heaven, who belongs to the Church, who logically will be saved, do you really think someone who wont give their heart to Christ will be saved, lololol, no, thats not how a eternal wedding banquet works people, so instead of that being the starting point we decided to fight about everything else under the sun, and with a poor intention of that every part of the Body of the Mystical Body has to have the same viewpoints about absolutely everything, yes its going to be messy until we all live in perfect unison with the invisible Mind of the Mystical Body of Christ, namely Jesus Christ. There was a ton for the Holy Spirit to have the Church figure out, its going to be messy folks, over time the dogma becomes more and more precise and those who cant accept it will naturally be weeded out, takes a little patience.

I re-wrote the 4th to last paragraph in the Treatise of Constantinople, changed to this:
To enter into the finality of the Glorified Body of Christ upon death a soul has given its heart to the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost and in turn Jesus Christ reigns King of the supernatural land of that soul (the most explicit way Jesus Christ can enter your soul is through the Eucharist and the most essential way Jesus Christ can enter your soul is through Baptism by Water) and that soul in turn lives in unison with the larger Mystical Body of Christ, all by the Father drawing us through uncreated grace, and in the event that this is not clear, we are given the view from Earth of a Holy Mountain with God at the summit.

After a 40 day lenten novena in this year of St. Joseph to St. Joseph, one decade of the rosary with by older boys for 40 days, with an intention I wish not to share, absolutely unbelievable things happened, worst nightmares and apparent betrayals, but then came the miracles, and they came one after another after another, and certainly when push came to shove, an fully armed battalion was sent to remind me of the Fathers love.
 
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