It’s been explained quite well in this thread how the grace itself isn’t created. “Created” doesn’t refer to the substance communicated itself. Created grace refers to the effect of God's self-communication within us. In other words, Catholic theology maintains that when uncreated grace, i.e. God Himself, is communicated to us, He has the effect of transforming us into His own likeness. This grace of transformation is called "created" because it is an effect of God's communication of Himself to us.ok, tell us.
For our topic "grace" is more accurate word than "substance", because substance can also mean essence, and since we do not become consubstantial with God, it is obvious that we are not communicated the divine essence.You’re deliberately missing the point for the sake of polemics. I don’t know how many different ways we have to say this to you. The substance communicated is not created
Substance has many meanings. The way I used it is perfectly fine and accurate.For our topic "grace" is more accurate word than "substance", because substance can also mean essence, and since we do not become consubstantial with God, it is obvious that we are not communicated the divine essence.
No, because in orthodox theology there is no division between divine essence and the divine energies, only a distinction so in salvation God give us the uncreated light by which He is Just, that is what salvation is, it is the same glory and the same justice but not the essence. That is why there is distinction but not division, God is truly present in his saints but they are not communicated the divine essence, they don't become consubstantial with the Holy Trinity but are only deified by the uncreated energies.So to Vanhyo: isn't the above declaration indication of something like a distinction between the Divine Essence and the Divine Operations?
You are mixing things that are contradicting, you are sort of locked in this non-sensical system and want to make sense of it but can't because it is in error and unmixable.3. As a final point, if the Grace of God in us is the Essence of God Himself, how can it be capable of increase or decrease? Because God cannot increase or decrease, but remains forever infinite. Hence, I would say, the Grace of God in us is distinct from the Essence of God. There is both an uncreated aspect of this Grace, coming from its Infinite Source in God, and a created effect in creatures, whereby this Grace begins to exist in us.
If salvation is having a created effect then muslim doing charity is as saved as catholic doing charity. A buddhist fasting is as saved as catholic fasting and there is no difference because both do the same created activity. But this is not at all true, because salvation is of grace and not by works*, that is right. Works are needed only in the context of being part of the Church, as means for receiving that grace but works by themselves and outside of the context of the Church are 100% meaningless and merit no grace or salvation. Muslim doing charity is still enemy of God. A buddist fasting is wasting his health away for vanity. In the end, Christ will ask us what did we do with the coin He gave us(that is why baptism is necessary, some don't even get a coin),or do we have enough oils in our lamps ? The coin and the oil here is the divine and uncreated grace, which the Good servant increased through God pleasing works.If Grace has no created effect, how can people go from being without Grace, to being with Grace? Grace begins to exist in them, so we say Grace has created effects also. It is like Water Dropping into a Glass from an Eternal Fountain. The Water was eternal, but it now has Created Effects.
The tide is turning in that respect where I visit. Yes you have the die hard imperialists, but cmon those folks have their own issues, namely not doing the most important thing which is giving your heart to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.Go over to the Trad Catholic forum and see how they treat us. I was told there that Orthodoxy is a false religion on par with paganism, lol. There were also a multitude of demands that I be banned.
The first part is solved, no one is getting into Heaven without accepting every last snippet of truth, and even one that has a perfect understanding the the office of the Bishop of Rome, and accepts it will have a mountain of truth to accept, especially about themselves, I dont see how Catholics and Orthodox are at a disadvantage here, both will have a mountain to climb.I have looked it from all angles, a charitable approach and including if i could excuse it if i was papal apologist, it doesn't work. The essence/energy distinction is tightly related to the seven ecumenical councils, most notably the 6th and also by the seventh. Without this doctrine true sanctification of matter is not possible.
RCs just have to make peace that they erred in:
Florence, that there is no salvation outside of the pope.
Trent, with created grace.
And if they erred in such super-fundamental issues, you have to wonder where else they err.