Is It Necessary to Abstain from Meat for One Week Before Communion?

Veniamin

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Irish Hermit said:
frost said:
Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.
Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil
It's not "understood" that you mean that unless you're trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition.  Why would abstaining from meat, the lowest and least restrictive degree of fasting, be "understood" to include more severe degrees of fasting?
 

Irish Hermit

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Veniamin said:
Irish Hermit said:
frost said:
Actually, xerophagia (literally; dry eating) means more than abstaining from meat. It means observing the entire fasting discipline, abstaining from meat, fish, eggs, dairy, wine and oil.
Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil
It's not "understood" that you mean that unless you're trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition.  Why would abstaining from meat, the lowest and least restrictive degree of fasting, be "understood" to include more severe degrees of fasting?
Dear Veniamin,

I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted. 

Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.
 

Veniamin

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Irish Hermit said:
I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.
See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.

Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.
As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
 

Irish Hermit

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Demetrios G. said:
Irish Hermit said:
Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil
I thought wine and oil is allowed on Saturday in observance of the sabbath. ???
Yes indeed.  The only exception is Great and Holy Saturday.
 

Irish Hermit

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Veniamin said:
Irish Hermit said:
I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.
See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.
Again, you have lost me.  We seem to be working with upside down triangles!  We see  meat as the most restrictive because it is the one level of fasting which cannot be broken.  For example, the great feast of Annunciation falls always in the Great Fast and while fish and wine and oil are allowed, meat (and milk and eggs) never can be.

Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.
As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
 
I am not guilty of lying.  I may be mistaken as any mortal man may be, but I do not resort to lying.  That is a very very nasty allegation. I see you are a Section Moderator; as such you should not be accusing Forum members in this manner.  Forum members are entitled to be treated with the respect laid out in the Rules.  If you have a genuine complaint please follow the Rules and refer it to a Moderator.
 

Veniamin

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Irish Hermit said:
Veniamin said:
Irish Hermit said:
I confess that you have lost me.  It is just the opposite to what you say.  Meat is NOT the "lowest and least restrictive level of fasting."  It is the highest and the most restrictive.   No matter how much the fast may be relaxed on a special Feastday, meat and milk and eggs are NEVER permitted.
See, you contradict yourself even within the same statement!  How is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  During Cheesefare Week, we must abstain from meat, yet are allowed milk and eggs and fish and wine and oil.  How then is abstaining from meat the most restrictive form of fasting?  Abstaining from wine and oil is the most restrictive because it is the one that requires us to also abstain from fish, and dairy, and meat.
Again, you have lost me.  We seem to be working with upside down triangles!  We see  meat as the most restrictive because it is the one level of fasting which cannot be broken.  For example, the great feast of Annunciation falls always in the Great Fast and while fish and wine and oil are allowed, meat (and milk and eggs) never can be.
From dictionary.reference.com:

Restrictive
Re*strict"ive\, a. [Cf. F. restrictif.]

1. Serving or tending to restrict; limiting; as, a restrictive particle; restrictive laws of trade.
(empasis mine).

So, once again, how is fasting from meat the most "limiting," when it allows for consumption of all other foods and there are levels of fasting that are more "limiting" than that of abstaining from meat alone?

Btw, please do not accuse me of "trying to twist plain words beyond all recognition."  I spoke the truth and do not deserve to be addressed so scornfully.
As you have already been quite in an outright lie concerning your allegations that the Pope was commemorated during the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople, I am quite entitled to mistrust every single word from you until its validity is proven.
 
I am not guilty of lying.  I may be mistaken as any mortal man may be, but I do not resort to lying.  That is a very very nasty allegation. I see you are a Section Moderator; as such you should not be accusing Forum members in this manner.  Forum members are entitled to be treated with the respect laid out in the Rules.  If you have a genuine complaint please follow the Rules and refer it to a Moderator.
Last time I checked, we couldn't warn anyone for lying.  However, since your accusation was publicly made and publicly demonstrated to be false, I am entitled to treat your statements as I would anyone who perjured himself on the stand.
 

Irish Hermit

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Veniamin said:
Last time I checked, we couldn't warn anyone for lying.  However, since your accusation was publicly made and publicly demonstrated to be false, I am entitled to treat your statements as I would anyone who perjured himself on the stand.
It has not been demonstrated to be false.  It has merely been *alleged* to be false by one person.  I have suggested to two Moderators who speak Greek that they contact Athos directly and ask what the 20 Abbots and 20 monastery representatives meant by their letter to the Ecumenical Patriarch in December 2006.

Talk of lying and perjury is really offensive but since one Moderator has already made such outrageous allegations, three times and in public, I suppose that you, or any of us for that matter, are free to do so of other Forum members.  What is the world coming to?  Why are you making these allegations in public?  This is just deflecting from the purposes of the Forum.
 

Demetrios G.

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Irish Hermit said:
Demetrios G. said:
Irish Hermit said:
Yes, it is understood that when we say "abstaining from meat" it includes all the foods which are lower on the Fasting triangle.


1.  Meat, milk, eggs

2.  Fish

3.  Wine and oil
I thought wine and oil is allowed on Saturday in observance of the sabbath. ???
Yes indeed.  The only exception is Great and Holy Saturday.
I think I can see your reasoning father, but the word restrictive is misleading in that some including me for a moment misunderstood it for intensity of the fast rather than restrictive as in the least intensive.
 

Mickey

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When I was in the Latin Catholic Church, I saw the fasting requirements relax to one hour before receiving. As a child and young man I remembered waiting for long periods of time in long confession lines and then as an adult---no confession lines at all. I would see virtually everyone recieve Communion at every Mass--even when some of them that I knew would tell me that they no longer go to confession. I would even see visiting protestants go up to receive, usually at weddings but not exclusively.

After my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, I noticed the opposite--very few receiving Holy Communion except for 1-4 times per year. I was in shock!

What is the common denominator? ----I think it is aversion to the sacrament of Confession. It seemed to me that in the Latin Church---few went to confession but all received Communion. And it seems in the
Orthodox Church---few go to Confession and few go to Communion.

I think both are wrong. But if someone finds it difficult to prepare by prayer and fasting and Confession---and so only receives seldomly, they are honest with themselves and can grow into a deeper understanding.

But on the Latin side, how can a person grow when they are just going out of habit or because "everyone else is going"?

I do not mean this to be sweeping judgement on my behalf. I know there are exceptions on both sides, but these are observations that I have had.

Should someone go infrequently out of pious respect for the Holy Gifts? That does not make sense to me. The Holy Gifts are for our healing and salvation.

Should someone go infrequently because that is what they have learned? No. They should be taught differently.

Should someone go frequently when they are not properly prepared? No. We can point them to 1 Corinthians chapter 11. They must be prepared.

Should someone go infrequently because, in their human frailty, they find it difficult to fast and pray and humble themselves for Confession? This individual must go as often as they can while trying to grow into a deeper understanding and participation of the Sacrament.

I apologize if this wretched sinner has offended anyone. These are observations that are on my mind.

Mickey
 

Pravoslavbob

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Mickey said:
What is the common denominator? ----I think it is aversion to the sacrament of Confession. It seemed to me that in the Latin Church---few went to confession but all received Communion. And it seems in the
Orthodox Church---few go to Confession and few go to Communion.
One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion.  (I'm not sure if you are suggesting here that they are somehow inextricably linked, but I have seen this suggestion come up before, perhaps on this thread.)  Confession is seen as a Mystery that returns the penitent to their original state of baptismal grace.  Regular confession should of course be a part of someone's spiritual discipline when approaching the chalice on a frequent basis, partly because of this, but also largely because it is how most of us receive our spiritual direction nowadays.  However, the idea of linking the two sacraments so strongly has largely come about because of the practice of communing infrequently.  If one rarely receives communion, then of course one should go to confession every time before receiving the Gifts.  But if one is communing regularly, one should be able to go to confession as often as seems good to you and your spriitual father.  For some, this may be once every six weeks, others may go every month, still others may go less frequently if their spiritual father deems it a good practice.   If you and your spiritual father are comfortable with a weekly confession, of course this is fine too.  I just don't think that anyone should feel that this is "required" or make too much of linking confession and communion. Remember that when communion is given, the priest says "the servant of God N. receives....the....Body and Blood...for the remission of sins and unto life everlasting."
 

Mickey

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Pravoslavbob said:
One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?

 

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Quinault said:
I thought you had to have approval from your priest and approval of the priest at the parish you visit in order to have communion. If that is the case wouldn't you ask what the requirements are for a given parish and follow them? It seems like an issue of respect to me. I don't take off my shoes as I enter my house. But I have friends that do so at their homes. So when I visit their house I take off my shoes as I enter. But that doesn't mean that I have to change my practice at my own home.
I've gone to many a different parish in my day (even around the world) and I've never once been asked anything other than, "What parish do you go to?" Never once have I been refused communion. I think it depends which church you go to and which customs you follow during the liturgy. For example, if you cross yourself right to left, bow at the appropriate times, present an aura of being Orthodox, most priests will take notice of that and if you provide them with a parish they will not question providing the sacraments. Of course I'm sure that each individual situation is different and its always best to check with the priest before you come up to receive.

-Nick
 

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Mickey said:
Pravoslavbob said:
One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?
In same cases if you are a weekly communicate, you must go at least 4 times a year, during the fasting periods.
 

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Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...this is how i was raised.....not to approach unfasted or unconfessed.....

What is going on with some part's of orthodoxy it's becoming lax fast's are shortened approach regularly no confessions or maybe once a month or twice a month or maybe not at all.......

I wonder if the smoke of satan has entered part's of the orthodox church as well ,,as the roman pope proclaimed that it's entered the catholic church.............

 

ozgeorge

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stashko said:
Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...
Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.
 

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ozgeorge said:
stashko said:
Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that ...to recieve Holy Communion One has to go to confession each time...
Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.
Indeed, even amongst us Greek Old Calendarists there is no requirement linking the two. How could there be, when the prayers before communion make it clear that Communion itself forgives various sins?

Of course, regular communion does imply a regular relationship with a spiritual father. And for pastoral reasons, many times people are confessing before every communion. But I have to point out that is a pastoral situation, and not doctrine, as the two keep getting confused in this thread.
 

orthodoxlurker

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ozgeorge said:
Stashko, the linking of the Mysterion of Confession to the Mysterion of Communion is a Latinization.
They are separate Mysterions in Orthodoxy and each stands alone. One does not "have" to go to Confession each time before Communion.
Are there some sources to back up your claim, or we should just rely on your opinion?

Particularly I'm asking for the referrence relating "prepared for communion" viz "confession" viz "sinfull state of man after the fall".

Thank you in advance.
 

orthodoxlurker

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stashko said:
Seems to me latinazation is creeping into Holy Orthodoxy God save us from that
We Serbs do have certain advantage of seeing that.

We don't need "arguments" of "orthodox" internet "theologians" to explain how it is actually the other way around, and that linking communion with confession is latinization.

We do have a saying, do you know it brother?

"Од воље му као Шокцу пост".

All the arguments of "orthodox" internet "theologians" falls apart against that.
 

ignatius

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Mickey said:
Pravoslavbob said:
One has to be careful when linking the Mysteries of confession and communion. 
But there is a connection. If you do not go to confession periodically (in my case it is every week), you cannot receive Communion frequently--am I incorrect?
Mickey we had this exact discussion with our Wednesday evening inquiry group meetings after Vespers and the parish is simply divided on this. One asked the question "are we ever truly prepared or worthy" to receive Communion. When we look at this in such a like the answer ultimately leads to laxity or scrupulosity....

What is the real answer?
 

Demetrios G.

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I'm going to agree with Fr. Anastasios on this because the sacrament of confession is a separate sacrament in my church. It could also relate to the way Greeks differ slightly to the practices of the Slavic traditions. Our church often uses the our father prayer before receiving communion. We pray this as a community. Now if there are specific sins one my have that will affect there communion with the church then one should non approach the Eucharist in a sinful state.
 
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