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Is it possible to be a trinitarian and not fall into heresy?

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muskogee22

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It's not that there one God that has three separate parts that would be the heresy of partialism.the heresy of partialism states that all three are fully divine,but that there is only God when they are seen in unison.

its not three gods despite all 3 being fully God.that would be tritheism.tritheists say that there are three gods with one substance.but this is exactely what the trinity doctrine states.all 3 hypostases are fully divine with one substance so there ARE THREE gods!if you say no..all three are fully divine but they are only 'God'when in unison,then you fall into the partialism above

Nor is it one hypostasis god just playing different roles.that would be the heresy of modalism.

so how do you believe in the trinity without falling into some kind of heresy?

you really can't.according to the orthodox,protestant and catholic churches you're all damned for believing one of these,wich ARE the only options.
 

muskogee22

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I'm surprised at the dead silence here.Latin trinitarians don't have this problem.
 

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I'm surprised at the dead silence here.Latin trinitarians don't have this problem.
Because you don't know what you're talking about and not posting in good faith, which makes it hard (and kind of pointless) to engage you.

tritheists say that there are three gods with one substance
No, tritheism is believing in three distinct substances.
 

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I think the problem is is that you don't really understand what you are talking about. In the span of a year, you've gone through how many religions? If you keep changing religions as soon as you hop on to a new website that tells you something that you find somewhat compelling, you are just going to end up continually frustrated. The issues you bring up are things that have been discussed and addressed quite firmly in the past. If you want to read the writings of the Church and not just read random quotes, you would find the answers to your questions. You aren't solely at fault for this, it is endemic to our society. People pull out things that they want to believe and ignore the rest. If you really want to be educated on the topic and have a real discussion, you need to learn what your opposition actually believes and not just tell them what you think they believe. If you can't compellingly argue in favor of your opponent's position, you don't actually know their position. You merely know a strawman of their position.
 

muskogee22

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Because you don't know what you're talking about and not posting in good faith, which makes it hard (and kind of pointless) to engage you.



No, tritheism is believing in three distinct substances.
Tritheist believe in one shared generic substance .a immaterial being isn't composed of matter so this substance just means shared divine nature .do you even know what substance means in theology?
 
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Tritheist believe in one shared generic substance .a immaterial being isn't composed of matter so this substance just means shared divine nature .do you even know what substance means in theology?
It's not one shared generic substance. The substance of God is His subsistence, His being. It is not a "thing" but is unknowable Divinity. The Trinity has one Being composed of three Persons. To use vocabulary in common with Islam, the Unbegotten, the Word, and the Spirit: one God. Not parts of Him, but one common Divine economy that is indivisible and uncreated. Now Islam teaches the Quran or the words of Allah is eternal and yet distinct from the person of Allah. The Quran in earth is a manifestation of the heavenly Quran from Umm al-Kitab. Why can't the Word of Allah, which is distinct from Allah but still eternal, become a man?
 

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It's not one shared generic substance. The substance of God is His subsistence, His being. It is not a "thing" but is unknowable Divinity. The Trinity has one Being composed of three Persons. To use vocabulary in common with Islam, the Unbegotten, the Word, and the Spirit: one God. Not parts of Him, but one common Divine economy that is indivisible and uncreated. Now Islam teaches the Quran or the words of Allah is eternal and yet distinct from the person of Allah. The Quran in earth is a manifestation of the heavenly Quran from Umm al-Kitab. Why can't the Word of Allah, which is distinct from Allah but still eternal, become a man?
the Maturidis don't believe this,and I'm maturidi(We believe in absolute divine simplicity unlike the A'shariyah and salafiyah).and even if this were true,his (abstract)words are part of his eternal knowledge thats why they say the Qu'ran is eternal.Allah cannot change,all of his omnipotent will is absolutely one and pre-eternal.thats why we believe in Qadr.Allah does not have changing feelings or a changing will.if that were the case,he wouldn't be all perfect or he would just be deficient and in need of something else.

do you really believe God's existance is his essence?because then you would logically be lead to absolute latin divine simplicity trinitarianism and be a FSH eternal kind of modalist,where the son and spirit are events in God(how a event can will or incarnate or have intellect is mysterious,I think unitarianism is a much more logical consequence of absolute divine simplicity).

absolute divine simplicity where God is absolutely simple is incompatible with EO trinitarianism.it leads to modalism or unitarianism.
see https://strangenotions.com/the-absolute-uniqueness-of-unconditioned-reality/

the distinguishing attribute of intellect and will in the persons means that the one God in three cannot be absolutely simple,and thus cannot be a unconditioned reality and thus all are creatures.


the reasons the social model of the trinity results in either atheism or unitarianism(from calledtocommunion):https://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/09/social-trinitarianism-and-the-catholic-faith/
 

muskogee22

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I think I neededm to make clearer what Im meant by one substance or nature.this is not numerical,if it were there would be only one person.this is a shared abstract generic nature that all of the three posess despite having different intellects and wills etc the EO believe there are three persons that are fully divine,that means there are three Gods,because their unity does not result in a quaternity where 3 make up one person in unison of the three(such a thing would be impossible anyway).they share a abstract generic nature,like how three humans share one humanity but dom not make up one human.

the trinitarians say then that there is one God,but this God doesn't exist,its merely a abstraction and shared nature...a better term would be three gods and one(composite not numerical) godhead.
 

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It's not one shared generic substance. The substance of God is His subsistence, His being. It is not a "thing" but is unknowable Divinity. The Trinity has one Being composed of three Persons. To use vocabulary in common with Islam, the Unbegotten, the Word, and the Spirit: one God. Not parts of Him, but one common Divine economy that is indivisible and uncreated. Now Islam teaches the Quran or the words of Allah is eternal and yet distinct from the person of Allah. The Quran in earth is a manifestation of the heavenly Quran from Umm al-Kitab. Why can't the Word of Allah, which is distinct from Allah but still eternal, become a man?
is this 'being'one numerically or composite?because if it were numerical,then you have modalism.if its composite and shared abstract generic nature,then you have Tritheism.EO trinitarians are indeed tritheists.
 

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It's not that there one God that has three separate parts that would be the heresy of partialism.the heresy of partialism states that all three are fully divine,but that there is only God when they are seen in unison.

its not three gods despite all 3 being fully God.that would be tritheism.tritheists say that there are three gods with one substance.but this is exactely what the trinity doctrine states.all 3 hypostases are fully divine with one substance so there ARE THREE gods!if you say no..all three are fully divine but they are only 'God'when in unison,then you fall into the partialism above

Nor is it one hypostasis god just playing different roles.that would be the heresy of modalism.

so how do you believe in the trinity without falling into some kind of heresy?

you really can't.according to the orthodox,protestant and catholic churches you're all damned for believing one of these,wich ARE the only options.
What makes you think you you have any kind of grasp of Orthodox theology? You continually fall back on fallacies to poise your ‘arguments’ and aren’t interested in learning, just trolling instead. I’m surprised the mods are so liberal as to allow you to abuse this forum.
 

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What makes you think you you have any kind of grasp of Orthodox theology? You continually fall back on fallacies to poise your ‘arguments’ and aren’t interested in learning, just trolling instead. I’m surprised the mods are so liberal as to allow you to abuse this forum.
FULK NERA, if you have comments, questions, or concerns regarding moderation, direct them to a member of the moderation team via PM. This comment amounts to public criticism of moderation, which is not permitted. This is your one and only verbal warning.
Thanks. --Ainnir
 

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It's not that there one God that has three separate parts that would be the heresy of partialism.the heresy of partialism states that all three are fully divine,but that there is only God when they are seen in unison.

its not three gods despite all 3 being fully God.that would be tritheism.tritheists say that there are three gods with one substance.but this is exactely what the trinity doctrine states.all 3 hypostases are fully divine with one substance so there ARE THREE gods!if you say no..all three are fully divine but they are only 'God'when in unison,then you fall into the partialism above

Nor is it one hypostasis god just playing different roles.that would be the heresy of modalism.

so how do you believe in the trinity without falling into some kind of heresy?

you really can't.according to the orthodox,protestant and catholic churches you're all damned for believing one of these,wich ARE the only options.
You have brought up some excellent points. I don't understand how the trinity works. Is Trinity God One What in 3 Whos? Trinity is One God (Essence) in three persons. So the One God is the Essence, if this is the case then why do trinitarians refer to God in a singular personal pronoun as a He? I don't think it would be grammatically correct to call Trinitarian God a He firstly because the One God is a What not a He i.e. one Essence and the essence is not a person. Secondly, you can't call Trinity a He because of a group of persons within it i.e.3 persons, so why do trinitarians call Trinity a He when Trinity is a "what" (essence) and they (the three persons)?
 
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andrewlya

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Also, how is this different to pagan gods who are distinct persons but sharing the same divine essence?

What if the Trinity was consisting of a million of persons sharing one divine essence, would this still be One God?
 
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Also, how is this different to pagan gods who are distinct persons but sharing the same divine essence?

What if the Trinity was consisting of a million of persons sharing one divine essence, would this still be One God?
Regarding your first post, the Father is the Divine Essence. The Word and Spirit have their substance from the Father, in Him and through Him. So when we speak of the Trinity as He, properly we are saying He, the Father with the Son and Spirit. Not an "it".

You're not understanding what hypostasis is. Which pagan religions teach that the various gods have one essence? If you're referring to the Hindu concept of brahmen, the Hindus don't have a concept of God in the traditional sense. Rather the Brahman is a pantheistic subsistence, that is all things are part of it and the gods are particular manifestations of it. That's nothing close to Trinitarianism.
2. Are you familiar with early Judaism's writings that God possesses Word and Spirit? Are the Word and Spirit God? If not, what are they?
3. When Jesus says the Father loved Him before the creation of the world, what does that mean?
 

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I assume you weren't intending to answer your own question, but there you go.
 

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Regarding your first post, the Father is the Divine Essence. The Word and Spirit have their substance from the Father, in Him and through Him. So when we speak of the Trinity as He, properly we are saying He, the Father with the Son and Spirit. Not an "it".

You're not understanding what hypostasis is. Which pagan religions teach that the various gods have one essence? If you're referring to the Hindu concept of brahmen, the Hindus don't have a concept of God in the traditional sense. Rather the Brahman is a pantheistic subsistence, that is all things are part of it and the gods are particular manifestations of it. That's nothing close to Trinitarianism.
2. Are you familiar with early Judaism's writings that God possesses Word and Spirit? Are the Word and Spirit God? If not, what are they?
3. When Jesus says the Father loved Him before the creation of the world, what does that mean?
'So when we speak of the Trinity as He, properly we are saying He, the Father with the Son and Spirit.'- but you still mention 3 persons, you can't call 3 persons a He. That's not grammatically correct. You can only call God a He if God was only One Divine Person.

Jesus said that God is Spirit, but Jesus is not Spirit for he says 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'

I believe God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Essence of God and His Divine Presence,it is a part of God the Father. The Word is Father's but not a distinct God from the Father. If the Father and the Son are co-eternal, this would make no sense since Father is always older than the Son, unless they are two brothers which trinity is not.

Our Father is Omniscient and loved him in advance of his creation. I believe this is the case. Arian or Unitarian theology makes such a better sense. I don't have a problem explaining that God is one the Father to a Jew or a Muslim, it makes sense to them. But try explaining Trinity being One God to a Jew or Muslims they will quickly call you a polytheist.Even now Trinity is a mystery and is confusing, but God says that He is not the author of confusion.

Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is One. That's why Jesus said that his Father is the Only True God in John 17:3 and Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 8:6
 

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But try explaining Trinity being One God to a Jew or Muslims they will quickly call you a polytheist.
Because we define ourselves by what our detractors might incorrectly say about us... 🤨
 
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'So when we speak of the Trinity as He, properly we are saying He, the Father with the Son and Spirit.'- but you still mention 3 persons, you can't call 3 persons a He. That's not grammatically correct. You can only call God a He if God was only One Divine Person.
In the New Testament, God usually refers to the Father. For instance, Corinthians 8:6
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." When God, unspecifically, or the Trinity is mentioned, it is properly referring to only One Divine Person - the Father. One God, One Lord, etc. The grace of God the Father, the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. In the Pauline corpus God = Father, but not to the meaning that Jesus isn't God.

Back to 1st Corinthians 8:6, our Lord Jesus Christ made all things i.e He is the Creator. In Genesis 1, in the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4.

1. The LORD = YHWH.
2.YHWH is the Creator.
3. Jesus is the Creator.
4. Jesus is YHWH.



Jesus said that God is Spirit, but Jesus is not Spirit for he says 'See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'
John 1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

1. Jesus is the Word. This is signified that He became flesh. Who became Flesh other than the Word?
2. The Word was with God. Doesn't that mean that God and the Word are different things?
3. The Word was God.
4. Therefore, Jesus is God, but also with God (the Father). Therefore, He and the Father have the same substance (Divinity) but are different because Jesus was also with God.

That's why Phillipians 4:6 says Jesus was being in the form of God, then humbled himself to human form. What is the form of God? I'm sure you can agree the form of God is a spirit.

I believe God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is the Essence of God and His Divine Presence,it is a part of God the Father. The Word is Father's but not a distinct God from the Father. If the Father and the Son are co-eternal, this would make no sense since Father is always older than the Son, unless they are two brothers which trinity is not.
The Father is not "older than the Son". You are taking the analogy too far. God is not a literal Father to His Son. It's speaking in human terms, that the Son has His source from all eternity in the Father. Think more in terms of God's Word/Logos - Christ is the wisdom and power of God (1st Corinthians 1:24). God has always had Wisdom and Power, right? Therefore Christ is preeternal as a spirit, since God never was without Wisdom and Power. Yet, going back to John 1:1, the Wisdom and Power were with God and not identical to the Father. The Wisdom and Power are the Son and not the Father.



Our Father is Omniscient and loved him in advance of his creation. I believe this is the case. Arian or Unitarian theology makes such a better sense. I don't have a problem explaining that God is one the Father to a Jew or a Muslim, it makes sense to them. But try explaining Trinity being One God to a Jew or Muslims they will quickly call you a polytheist.Even now Trinity is a mystery and is confusing, but God says that He is not the author of confusion.
This doesn;t make any sense. God can't love His Son before creation if the Son is a creation (which is the central tenant of arianism). Or if as you say, if the Father and Son are not distinct, then how can God love the Son - that would just be the Father loving the Father? That would be self-love, and not love.

That's a very poor argument. The Jews and Muslims are confused because they have mutilated God and deny our Lord Jesus Christ. They are deluded, a stumbling block to the Jews and also the Greeks. God has given them to blindness. They are equally confused that Jesus is the Messiah who died and was raised.


Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is One. That's why Jesus said that his Father is the Only True God in John 17:3 and Paul confirms this in 1 Corinthians 8:6
Yes YHWH is one. That's why Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. That's why when St. Paul said "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Isaiah 45 says:
I 23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,

are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.

1. Every knee will bow to the LORD, YHWH.
2. Every knee will bow to Jesus.
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.
4. Jesus is Lord and glory of God the Father clearly indicate that they are separate persons and have some form of distinction.

When Jesus gave the great commission, He said "Baptize all nations in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They have one Name. What is the name of the Lord? Isaiah 42:8 says I am the LORD (YHWH), that is my Name.
1. the One God has a name, YHWH.
2. The Name of YHWH is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are together YHWH.
 
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andrewlya

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Regarding your first post, the Father is the Divine Essence. The Word and Spirit have their substance from the Father, in Him and through Him. So when we speak of the Trinity as He, properly we are saying He, the Father with the Son and Spirit. Not an "it".

You're not understanding what hypostasis is. Which pagan religions teach that the various gods have one essence? If you're referring to the Hindu concept of brahmen, the Hindus don't have a concept of God in the traditional sense. Rather the Brahman is a pantheistic subsistence, that is all things are part of it and the gods are particular manifestations of it. That's nothing close to Trinitarianism.
2. Are you familiar with early Judaism's writings that God possesses Word and Spirit? Are the Word and Spirit God? If not, what are they?
3. When Jesus says the Father loved Him before the creation of the world, what does that mean?
To be honest, I've never heard any Orthodox, Catholic or a Protestant telling me that the Father is the Divine Essence, is this your opinion or official doctrine taught by Orthodoxy?
 

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Because we define ourselves by what our detractors might incorrectly say about us... 🤨
But still I'm sure you know what I mean
 
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To be honest, I've never heard any Orthodox, Catholic or a Protestant telling me that the Father is the Divine Essence, is this your opinion or official doctrine taught by Orthodoxy?
This is basic Orthodoxy. The Father alone has aseity, is autotheos (God in and of Himself - i.e the Father is Being/Essence)). He is the source of the Divine Essence, and the Son and Spirit have their cause eternally from Him. That's why the Son is God, because He derives His essence from the Father.
 

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But still I'm sure you know what I mean
So now you insist we ignore what you write and intuit the contrary meaning somehow implied therein. This is utter fallacy.
 

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In the New Testament, God usually refers to the Father. For instance, Corinthians 8:6
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." When God, unspecifically, or the Trinity is mentioned, it is properly referring to only One Divine Person - the Father. One God, One Lord, etc. The grace of God the Father, the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. In the Pauline corpus God = Father, but not to the meaning that Jesus isn't God.

Back to 1st Corinthians 8:6, our Lord Jesus Christ made all things i.e He is the Creator. In Genesis 1, in the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4.

1. The LORD = YHWH.
2.YHWH is the Creator.
3. Jesus is the Creator.
4. Jesus is YHWH.




John 1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

1. Jesus is the Word. This is signified that He became flesh. Who became Flesh other than the Word?
2. The Word was with God. Doesn't that mean that God and the Word are different things?
3. The Word was God.
4. Therefore, Jesus is God, but also with God (the Father). Therefore, He and the Father have the same substance (Divinity) but are different because Jesus was also with God.

That's why Phillipians 4:6 says Jesus was being in the form of God, then humbled himself to human form. What is the form of God? I'm sure you can agree the form of God is a spirit.


The Father is not "older than the Son". You are taking the analogy too far. God is not a literal Father to His Son. It's speaking in human terms, that the Son has His source from all eternity in the Father. Think more in terms of God's Word/Logos - Christ is the wisdom and power of God (1st Corinthians 1:24). God has always had Wisdom and Power, right? Therefore Christ is preeternal as a spirit, since God never was without Wisdom and Power. Yet, going back to John 1:1, the Wisdom and Power were with God and not identical to the Father. The Wisdom and Power are the Son and not the Father.




This doesn;t make any sense. God can't love His Son before creation if the Son is a creation (which is the central tenant of arianism). Or if as you say, if the Father and Son are not distinct, then how can God love the Son - that would just be the Father loving the Father? That would be self-love, and not love.

That's a very poor argument. The Jews and Muslims are confused because they have mutilated God and deny our Lord Jesus Christ. They are deluded, a stumbling block to the Jews and also the Greeks. God has given them to blindness. They are equally confused that Jesus is the Messiah who died and was raised.



Yes YHWH is one. That's why Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. That's why when St. Paul said "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Isaiah 45 says:
I 23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,

are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.

1. Every knee will bow to the LORD, YHWH.
2. Every knee will bow to Jesus.
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.
4. Jesus is Lord and glory of God the Father clearly indicate that they are separate persons and have some form of distinction.

When Jesus gave the great commission, He said "Baptize all nations in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They have one Name. What is the name of the Lord? Isaiah 42:8 says I am the LORD (YHWH), that is my Name.
1. the One God has a name, YHWH.
2. The Name of YHWH is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are together YHWH.
A lot of points raised,I do not have time to refute them all. The fact is that the Father is not the Son and yes, it does give a human analogy to show that Father is older than the Son so can't be co eternal. This is a human analogy for us to understand that they are not equal or co eternal. This is why the Son says that the Father is greater than him and greater than all and that only the Father knows when the Son will return and even the Son doesn't know the hour of his own return. You can say he was talking as a human but he was still God right? The Son would have had the knowledge of his future return if he was truly fully God, but he did not know it. Father only knows this. The verse says Logos, if you read Greek. The logos can be translated as an Idea, Plan or a Word. I believe that our Father Elohim had a Plan of Salvation from the very beginning which was the Plan or Word from the beginning and this Plan of Salvation was divine (From the Elohim our Father) which later became flesh- i.e. our Messiah- our Messiah is this Plan of Salvation. Does it make sense? The Word being an Intelligent Aspect of YHWH rather than another god person. Otherwise would make no sense to say that that "In the beginning was the Word (God) and the Word (God) was WITH God and the Word (God) was God". How can God be with God?I do appreciate it is a hard verse to understand and causes a bit of confusion.
 

andrewlya

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So now you insist we ignore what you write and intuit the contrary meaning somehow implied therein. This is utter fallacy.
You seem to be a bit bitter, sorry if I offend you in any way
 

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In the New Testament, God usually refers to the Father. For instance, Corinthians 8:6
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." When God, unspecifically, or the Trinity is mentioned, it is properly referring to only One Divine Person - the Father. One God, One Lord, etc. The grace of God the Father, the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. In the Pauline corpus God = Father, but not to the meaning that Jesus isn't God.

Back to 1st Corinthians 8:6, our Lord Jesus Christ made all things i.e He is the Creator. In Genesis 1, in the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4.

1. The LORD = YHWH.
2.YHWH is the Creator.
3. Jesus is the Creator.
4. Jesus is YHWH.




John 1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

1. Jesus is the Word. This is signified that He became flesh. Who became Flesh other than the Word?
2. The Word was with God. Doesn't that mean that God and the Word are different things?
3. The Word was God.
4. Therefore, Jesus is God, but also with God (the Father). Therefore, He and the Father have the same substance (Divinity) but are different because Jesus was also with God.

That's why Phillipians 4:6 says Jesus was being in the form of God, then humbled himself to human form. What is the form of God? I'm sure you can agree the form of God is a spirit.


The Father is not "older than the Son". You are taking the analogy too far. God is not a literal Father to His Son. It's speaking in human terms, that the Son has His source from all eternity in the Father. Think more in terms of God's Word/Logos - Christ is the wisdom and power of God (1st Corinthians 1:24). God has always had Wisdom and Power, right? Therefore Christ is preeternal as a spirit, since God never was without Wisdom and Power. Yet, going back to John 1:1, the Wisdom and Power were with God and not identical to the Father. The Wisdom and Power are the Son and not the Father.




This doesn;t make any sense. God can't love His Son before creation if the Son is a creation (which is the central tenant of arianism). Or if as you say, if the Father and Son are not distinct, then how can God love the Son - that would just be the Father loving the Father? That would be self-love, and not love.

That's a very poor argument. The Jews and Muslims are confused because they have mutilated God and deny our Lord Jesus Christ. They are deluded, a stumbling block to the Jews and also the Greeks. God has given them to blindness. They are equally confused that Jesus is the Messiah who died and was raised.



Yes YHWH is one. That's why Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. That's why when St. Paul said "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Isaiah 45 says:
I 23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,

are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.

1. Every knee will bow to the LORD, YHWH.
2. Every knee will bow to Jesus.
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.
4. Jesus is Lord and glory of God the Father clearly indicate that they are separate persons and have some form of distinction.

When Jesus gave the great commission, He said "Baptize all nations in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They have one Name. What is the name of the Lord? Isaiah 42:8 says I am the LORD (YHWH), that is my Name.
1. the One God has a name, YHWH.
2. The Name of YHWH is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are together YHWH.
Please, tell me if God is Trinity and Trinity is God, which person of the Trinity speaks when God speaks in a SINGULAR PERSONAL pronoun: I AM YAHWEH, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God?

1.And which person of the Trinity ‘causes His sun to rise?’ Which person of the Trinity ‘gives rain on the earth and sends water on the field’?
 

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In the New Testament, God usually refers to the Father. For instance, Corinthians 8:6
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." When God, unspecifically, or the Trinity is mentioned, it is properly referring to only One Divine Person - the Father. One God, One Lord, etc. The grace of God the Father, the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. In the Pauline corpus God = Father, but not to the meaning that Jesus isn't God.

Back to 1st Corinthians 8:6, our Lord Jesus Christ made all things i.e He is the Creator. In Genesis 1, in the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4.

1. The LORD = YHWH.
2.YHWH is the Creator.
3. Jesus is the Creator.
4. Jesus is YHWH.




John 1 "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

1. Jesus is the Word. This is signified that He became flesh. Who became Flesh other than the Word?
2. The Word was with God. Doesn't that mean that God and the Word are different things?
3. The Word was God.
4. Therefore, Jesus is God, but also with God (the Father). Therefore, He and the Father have the same substance (Divinity) but are different because Jesus was also with God.

That's why Phillipians 4:6 says Jesus was being in the form of God, then humbled himself to human form. What is the form of God? I'm sure you can agree the form of God is a spirit.


The Father is not "older than the Son". You are taking the analogy too far. God is not a literal Father to His Son. It's speaking in human terms, that the Son has His source from all eternity in the Father. Think more in terms of God's Word/Logos - Christ is the wisdom and power of God (1st Corinthians 1:24). God has always had Wisdom and Power, right? Therefore Christ is preeternal as a spirit, since God never was without Wisdom and Power. Yet, going back to John 1:1, the Wisdom and Power were with God and not identical to the Father. The Wisdom and Power are the Son and not the Father.




This doesn;t make any sense. God can't love His Son before creation if the Son is a creation (which is the central tenant of arianism). Or if as you say, if the Father and Son are not distinct, then how can God love the Son - that would just be the Father loving the Father? That would be self-love, and not love.

That's a very poor argument. The Jews and Muslims are confused because they have mutilated God and deny our Lord Jesus Christ. They are deluded, a stumbling block to the Jews and also the Greeks. God has given them to blindness. They are equally confused that Jesus is the Messiah who died and was raised.



Yes YHWH is one. That's why Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM. That's why when St. Paul said "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Isaiah 45 says:
I 23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

24 “Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,

are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.

1. Every knee will bow to the LORD, YHWH.
2. Every knee will bow to Jesus.
3. Therefore, Jesus is YHWH.
4. Jesus is Lord and glory of God the Father clearly indicate that they are separate persons and have some form of distinction.

When Jesus gave the great commission, He said "Baptize all nations in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They have one Name. What is the name of the Lord? Isaiah 42:8 says I am the LORD (YHWH), that is my Name.
1. the One God has a name, YHWH.
2. The Name of YHWH is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are together YHWH.
The Son being fully God prays to the Father, and Father prays to no one. You can't have fully God praying to another God, it's plain polytheism. Jesus asked my God, my God why have you forsaken me? I know it is quoted from Psalms, but it doesn't change the fact that the suffering Messiah was asking the question about God forsaking him while he was still fully God. This is because Jesus was not.
 

andrewlya

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Trinity is a false monotheism because it would still be one God if there were 100, or 1000, a million or an unlimited amount of persons sharing one essence. Do you know what I mean? It's absurd. One essence and lots of persons is still one God, that's just absurd
 
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A lot of points raised,I do not have time to refute them all. The fact is that the Father is not the Son and yes, it does give a human analogy to show that Father is older than the Son so can't be co eternal.
OK. Refute one of them, whichever you choose. They all prove Jesus is YHWH.

No, it doesn't mean that.. The Sonship of Jesus is a metaphor about how He relates to the Father as His preeternal Word. As I demonstarted above, Christ is the Wisdom and Power of God. If you think that the Word is a created being, that means the Father didn't eternally have Wisdom and Power. That would make God into a mute idol if He doesn't have attributes. A non-existent Being.

This is a human analogy for us to understand that they are not equal or co eternal. This is why the Son says that the Father is greater than him and greater than all and that only the Father knows when the Son will return and even the Son doesn't know the hour of his own return. You can say he was talking as a human but he was still God right?
Did you read the part in Phillipians 4 where it says that Jesus humbled himself from the form of God to the form of man? "He emptied Himself"


The Son would have had the knowledge of his future return if he was truly fully God, but he did not know it. Father only knows this. The verse says Logos, if you read Greek. The logos can be translated as an Idea, Plan or a Word. I believe that our Father Elohim had a Plan of Salvation from the very beginning which was the Plan or Word from the beginning and this Plan of Salvation was divine (From the Elohim our Father) which later became flesh- i.e. our Messiah- our Messiah is this Plan of Salvation
.

See above. The Son submitted Himself to the Father in His humanity which is why He didn't know when He was coming again according to His humanity.

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse says Jesus is el, from which Elohim is derived. Incidentally, it also says the child born is everlasting. What can be everlasting except YHWH? My name is from everlasting to everlasting.

Yes, Logos is rational thought, idea plan, etc. Do you think there was ever a time God didn't have a plan of salvation? And again, John 1 says that this Logos IS God from the very beginning.

Does it make sense? The Word being an Intelligent Aspect of YHWH rather than another god person. Otherwise would make no sense to say that that "In the beginning was the Word (God) and the Word (God) was WITH God and the Word (God) was God". How can God be with God?I do appreciate it is a hard verse to understand and causes a bit of confusion.
You're getting closer here. Christ is the "intelligent aspect" of YHWH who derives His essence from the Father. That's why He's with God. Do you think the Divine Plan (Logos) is the person of the Father? If the intelligent aspect of YHWH is not the Father, and is Jesus, but is eternal because YHWH can never be without an intelligent aspect, that's Trinitarianism right there.
 
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Trinity is a false monotheism because it would still be one God if there were 100, or 1000, a million or an unlimited amount of persons sharing one essence. Do you know what I mean? It's absurd. One essence and lots of persons is still one God, that's just absurd
Before we address this, can you explain how Jesus isn't YHWH from my previous post?

Here's an easy one for you to refute so you don't have to pick and choose.


Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

This is Jesus speaking here.

Isaiah 44:6.
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

1. Who is the first and the last? YHWH.
2. Besides that Revelation says it's Jesus speaking the letters to the Churches, this is the One who was dead and now is alive. i.e Jesus who died and was risen.
3. Jesus says here He is the first and the last.
4. Jesus is YHWH.
 
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andrewlya

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Why no one in the Old Testament nor even in the New Testament prays or worship the Trinity or 3 persons at the same time, ever? Trinity is God so I'd expect Trinity to be worshipped and prayed to, but that's never the case, why?
 

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OK. Refute one of them, whichever you choose. They all prove Jesus is YHWH.

No, it doesn't mean that.. The Sonship of Jesus is a metaphor about how He relates to the Father as His preeternal Word. As I demonstarted above, Christ is the Wisdom and Power of God. If you think that the Word is a created being, that means the Father didn't eternally have Wisdom and Power. That would make God into a mute idol if He doesn't have attributes. A non-existent Being.



Did you read the part in Phillipians 4 where it says that Jesus humbled himself from the form of God to the form of man? "He emptied Himself"


.

See above. The Son submitted Himself to the Father in His humanity which is why He didn't know when He was coming again according to His humanity.

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse says Jesus is el, from which Elohim is derived. Incidentally, it also says the child born is everlasting. What can be everlasting except YHWH? My name is from everlasting to everlasting.

Yes, Logos is rational thought, idea plan, etc. Do you think there was ever a time God didn't have a plan of salvation? And again, John 1 says that this Logos IS God from the very beginning.


You're getting closer here. Christ is the "intelligent aspect" of YHWH who derives His essence from the Father. That's why He's with God. Do you think the Divine Plan (Logos) is the person of the Father? If the intelligent aspect of YHWH is not the Father, and is Jesus, but is eternal because YHWH can never be without an intelligent aspect, that's Trinitarianism right there.
You say that Jesus in his humanity didn't know the hour, but he was still God at the same time, so why didn't he know still?
 

andrewlya

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Please, tell me if God is Trinity and Trinity is God, which person of the Trinity speaks when God speaks in a SINGULAR PERSONAL pronoun: I AM YAHWEH, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God?

1.And which person of the Trinity ‘causes His sun to rise?’ Which person of the Trinity ‘gives rain on the earth and sends water on the field’?
 

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Before we address this, can you explain how Jesus isn't YHWH from my previous post?

Here's an easy one for you to refute so you don't have to pick and choose.


Revelation 1: 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

This is Jesus speaking here.

Isaiah 44:6.
“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

1. Who is the first and the last? YHWH.
2. Besides that Revelation says it's Jesus speaking the letters to the Churches, this is the One who was dead and now is alive. i.e Jesus who died and was risen.
3. Jesus says here He is the first and the last.
4. Jesus is YHWH.
Jesus can't be YHWH because the Father is greater than him, if the Father is greater in something what ever it may be, they are simply not equal in everything 100%. It's simple as that.
 
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Jesus can't be YHWH because the Father is greater than him, if the Father is greater in something what ever it may be, they are simply not equal in everything 100%. It's simple as that.
You haven't responded to any of my posts. Please stop asking troll questions and respond to my arguments. Is Jesus the eternal Word, the Wisdom and Power of God, the Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the First and the Last, the Creator, the Name above all Names, He Who IS, the I AM?

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine with an actual logical proof.
 

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Luke 5:19-21 NKJV
And when they could not find how they might bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the housetop and let him down with his bed through the tiling into the midst before Jesus.20When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”21And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

24-26:
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” – He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”25Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.26And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!”
 
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andrewlya

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OK. Refute one of them, whichever you choose. They all prove Jesus is YHWH.

No, it doesn't mean that.. The Sonship of Jesus is a metaphor about how He relates to the Father as His preeternal Word. As I demonstarted above, Christ is the Wisdom and Power of God. If you think that the Word is a created being, that means the Father didn't eternally have Wisdom and Power. That would make God into a mute idol if He doesn't have attributes. A non-existent Being.



Did you read the part in Phillipians 4 where it says that Jesus humbled himself from the form of God to the form of man? "He emptied Himself"


.

See above. The Son submitted Himself to the Father in His humanity which is why He didn't know when He was coming again according to His humanity.

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This verse says Jesus is el, from which Elohim is derived. Incidentally, it also says the child born is everlasting. What can be everlasting except YHWH? My name is from everlasting to everlasting.

Yes, Logos is rational thought, idea plan, etc. Do you think there was ever a time God didn't have a plan of salvation? And again, John 1 says that this Logos IS God from the very beginning.


You're getting closer here. Christ is the "intelligent aspect" of YHWH who derives His essence from the Father. That's why He's with God. Do you think the Divine Plan (Logos) is the person of the Father? If the intelligent aspect of YHWH is not the Father, and is Jesus, but is eternal because YHWH can never be without an intelligent aspect, that's Trinitarianism right there.
Isaiah says the following, it seems Trinitarian did a bit of editing. This is taken from Torah from the Jewish web site 5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

Jesus came in the form of God because he was given the authority from God the Father, he acted as if he was God but in a representational manner. This is what Paul means when he says that he was in the form of God that is acted with the God's authority. If Jesus was God then he would have had the authority to begin with, why would God need to be given authority from another God? Think about it
 

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You haven't responded to any of my posts. Please stop asking troll questions and respond to my arguments. Is Jesus the eternal Word, the Wisdom and Power of God, the Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the First and the Last, the Creator, the Name above all Names, He Who IS, the I AM?

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine with an actual logical proof.
I don't believe Jesus is the Eternal God, no.And I certainly don't believe that Jesus is the Everlasting Father, Jesus said we have one Father who is in Heaven. If Jesus is Father then you are edging modalism, that's not a trinity doctrine. It's a other heresy. Since the Son submits to the Father in everything and even says that his doctrine is not his but the one who sent him, adding that he can't do anything on his own but what the Father tells him, then I conclude that the Father is the true God and Jesus is not. Hope this is ok with you.
 

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Luke 5:19-21 NKJV
And when they could not find how they might bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on the housetop and let him down with his bed through the tiling into the midst before Jesus.20When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.”21And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

24-26:
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” – He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”25Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.26And they were all amazed, and they glorified God and were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen strange things today!”
Yes, Jesus forgave sins, but this is explained because Jesus WAS GIVEN authority to forgive sins, right? Given by Whom? The Father Yahweh
 
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God is God ( obviously) & we understand He is ultimately unknowable but who are we to dissect HIS imparting to us of His divinity in the Holy Trinity? There is a clear Trinitarian revelation in Enoch that is consistent with the Ancient of Days account in Daniel & definitive. The Lord Jesus Christ testifies of the Trinity in the Gospel of John ( John 14:15-18) & the basic understanding of following the Gospel in keeping His commandments.

This is not something pagan & it is prior to the construct of the known canon, the testimony is given. Apparently God allows us to have faith by tradition according to scripture & in some testimony as part of holy tradition:
 
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