Is it possible to be a trinitarian and not fall into heresy?

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

Isaiah says the following, it seems Trinitarian did a bit of editing. This is taken from Torah from the Jewish web site 5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15940/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

Looks like chabad did a bit of editing. Let's go through an interlinear translation.
source: http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/9.html

כִּי־יֶלֶד יֻלַּד־לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל־שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם

Kiy-yeled yuLad-länû Bën niTan-länû waT'hiy haMis'räh al-shikh'mô waYiq'rä sh'mô Pele yôëtz ël GiBôr áviyad sar-shälôm.

For x3588 unto us a child 3206 is born, 3205 z8795 unto us a son 1121 is given: 5414 z8738 and the government 4951 shall be upon x5921 his shoulder: 7926 and his name 8034 shall be x1961 called 7121 z8799 Wonderful, 6382 Counsellor, 3289 z8802 The mighty 1368 ´Ël אֵל, 410 The everlasting 5703 Father, 1 The Prince 8269 of Peace. 7965

Notice the word שְׁמוֹ. .
It's the third-person masculine singular personal pronoun. i.e HIS NAME.
Now notice וַיִּקְרָא.
That's the third-person masculine singular future. SHALL BE CALLED.
So the relevant part of the verse literally is rendered:
וַיִּקְרָא (shall be called)
שְׁמוֹ (His name)
פֶּלֶא (miracle),
יוֹעֵץ (advisor),
אֵל גִּבּוֹר (powerful God)
אֲבִיעַד (petpetual father)
שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם (Head of peace)

Your Jewish website chabad lies and changes the order of the words, when it is clearly His name shall be called Everlasting Father, Almighty God etc and not just prince of peace.

Jesus came in the form of God because he was given the authority from God the Father, he acted as if he was God but in a representational manner. This is what Paul means when he says that he was in the form of God that is acted with the God's authority. If Jesus was God then he would have had the authority to begin with, why would God need to be given authority from another God? Think about it

He acted as God in represenatational manner but wasn't actually God? That's called idolatry. If when Thomas bowed before the risen Christ and said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus wasn't actually God but just a representative like an angel, Jesus would be an idol.

He is given authority from God the Father because He derives His essence from Him and submits to Him. As you put it, YHWH's "intelligent aspect" still submits to the Will of the Father because He is derived from the Father. That doesn't mean that He isn't therefore of the same Essence and therefore fully God.

 

[Katechon]

This thread is a dumpster fire.

 

[Tzimis]

Trinity is a false monotheism because it would still be one God if there were 100, or 1000, a million or an unlimited amount of persons sharing one essence. Do you know what I mean? It's absurd. One essence and lots of persons is still one God, that's just absurd

Its not absurd. You have billions of people in the world. If you speak plural and say human you mean the whole race. If you look a one and call him human. That one is also a human.

 

[biro]

Wow. I agree with Tzimis. Hand out the party hats.

 

[Ainnir]

This thread is a dumpster fire.

Most of it is, if I recall (yes, yes I am too lazy to scroll back through right now).

 

[andrewlya]

Looks like chabad did a bit of editing. Let's go through an interlinear translation.
source: http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/9.html

כִּי־יֶלֶד יֻלַּד־לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל־שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם

Kiy-yeled yuLad-länû Bën niTan-länû waT'hiy haMis'räh al-shikh'mô waYiq'rä sh'mô Pele yôëtz ël GiBôr áviyad sar-shälôm.

For x3588 unto us a child 3206 is born, 3205 z8795 unto us a son 1121 is given: 5414 z8738 and the government 4951 shall be upon x5921 his shoulder: 7926 and his name 8034 shall be x1961 called 7121 z8799 Wonderful, 6382 Counsellor, 3289 z8802 The mighty 1368 ´Ël אֵל, 410 The everlasting 5703 Father, 1 The Prince 8269 of Peace. 7965

Notice the word שְׁמוֹ. .
It's the third-person masculine singular personal pronoun. i.e HIS NAME.
Now notice וַיִּקְרָא.
That's the third-person masculine singular future. SHALL BE CALLED.
So the relevant part of the verse literally is rendered:
וַיִּקְרָא (shall be called)
שְׁמוֹ (His name)
פֶּלֶא (miracle),
יוֹעֵץ (advisor),
אֵל גִּבּוֹר (powerful God)
אֲבִיעַד (petpetual father)
שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם (Head of peace)

Your Jewish website chabad lies and changes the order of the words, when it is clearly His name shall be called Everlasting Father, Almighty God etc and not just prince of peace.



He acted as God in represenatational manner but wasn't actually God? That's called idolatry. If when Thomas bowed before the risen Christ and said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus wasn't actually God but just a representative like an angel, Jesus would be an idol.

He is given authority from God the Father because He derives His essence from Him and submits to Him. As you put it, YHWH's "intelligent aspect" still submits to the Will of the Father because He is derived from the Father. That doesn't mean that He isn't therefore of the same Essence and therefore fully God.

I see your God needs to be given authority when God has all authority already? The God I worship doesn't submit to anyone and my God doesn't worship or prays anyone else. My God doesn't need to be given any power or authority as He has all power and all divine authority already and He knows all things.

This is the same God the Father that Jesus prayed to and worshipped and told us to do the same, so why don't you start?

If Trinity was God then why didn't Jesus teach us to pray to Trinity or to pray to the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit?

If Trinity was God, then why did Jesus teach us to pray to the Father only?

And why no one ever worships or prays to Trinity even in the New Testament?

 

[andrewlya]

Looks like chabad did a bit of editing. Let's go through an interlinear translation.
source: http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/9.html

כִּי־יֶלֶד יֻלַּד־לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל־שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם

Kiy-yeled yuLad-länû Bën niTan-länû waT'hiy haMis'räh al-shikh'mô waYiq'rä sh'mô Pele yôëtz ël GiBôr áviyad sar-shälôm.

For x3588 unto us a child 3206 is born, 3205 z8795 unto us a son 1121 is given: 5414 z8738 and the government 4951 shall be upon x5921 his shoulder: 7926 and his name 8034 shall be x1961 called 7121 z8799 Wonderful, 6382 Counsellor, 3289 z8802 The mighty 1368 ´Ël אֵל, 410 The everlasting 5703 Father, 1 The Prince 8269 of Peace. 7965

Notice the word שְׁמוֹ. .
It's the third-person masculine singular personal pronoun. i.e HIS NAME.
Now notice וַיִּקְרָא.
That's the third-person masculine singular future. SHALL BE CALLED.
So the relevant part of the verse literally is rendered:
וַיִּקְרָא (shall be called)
שְׁמוֹ (His name)
פֶּלֶא (miracle),
יוֹעֵץ (advisor),
אֵל גִּבּוֹר (powerful God)
אֲבִיעַד (petpetual father)
שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם (Head of peace)

Your Jewish website chabad lies and changes the order of the words, when it is clearly His name shall be called Everlasting Father, Almighty God etc and not just prince of peace.



He acted as God in represenatational manner but wasn't actually God? That's called idolatry. If when Thomas bowed before the risen Christ and said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus wasn't actually God but just a representative like an angel, Jesus would be an idol.

He is given authority from God the Father because He derives His essence from Him and submits to Him. As you put it, YHWH's "intelligent aspect" still submits to the Will of the Father because He is derived from the Father. That doesn't mean that He isn't therefore of the same Essence and therefore fully God.

I think Jews knows their Tanakh a bit better don't you think,their fluent in Hebrew, are you? It is the Trinitarian Christians who arrange the verses to fit their theology. Jewish always worshipped the Father. If the verse in Isaiah was interpreted your way, then Jesus would be called the Father, do you believe you have two heavenly fathers now? Or are you a modalist i.e. believe that the Father became the Son? Jesus is the Son of God and not the Father. In fact I don't know of any verse in the New Testament where Jesus was called the Father, do you? So I'd go with Chabad interpretation as Jesus is not the Father.

 

[andrewlya]

Its not absurd. You have billions of people in the world. If you speak plural and say human you mean the whole race. If you look a one and call him human. That one is also a human.

But there are still billion of humans, if one God was in a million of divine persons it would still be one God.Dont you see a bit of an issue here? Then you call Hindus polytheists because they worship many gods but 3 distinct divine persons are already too many divine persons to worship. 3 divine persons is polytheism, worship of more than one divine person is polytheism.If Trinity was just one person, it would make sense but sadly there are 3 divine persons and each of them is fully God. Now you tell me how you worship one God.

By the way, can you show me a verse that says that the Father is the Divine Essence,please?

 

[andrewlya]

Looks like chabad did a bit of editing. Let's go through an interlinear translation.
source: http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/isaiah/9.html

כִּי־יֶלֶד יֻלַּד־לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן־לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל־שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם

Kiy-yeled yuLad-länû Bën niTan-länû waT'hiy haMis'räh al-shikh'mô waYiq'rä sh'mô Pele yôëtz ël GiBôr áviyad sar-shälôm.

For x3588 unto us a child 3206 is born, 3205 z8795 unto us a son 1121 is given: 5414 z8738 and the government 4951 shall be upon x5921 his shoulder: 7926 and his name 8034 shall be x1961 called 7121 z8799 Wonderful, 6382 Counsellor, 3289 z8802 The mighty 1368 ´Ël אֵל, 410 The everlasting 5703 Father, 1 The Prince 8269 of Peace. 7965

Notice the word שְׁמוֹ. .
It's the third-person masculine singular personal pronoun. i.e HIS NAME.
Now notice וַיִּקְרָא.
That's the third-person masculine singular future. SHALL BE CALLED.
So the relevant part of the verse literally is rendered:
וַיִּקְרָא (shall be called)
שְׁמוֹ (His name)
פֶּלֶא (miracle),
יוֹעֵץ (advisor),
אֵל גִּבּוֹר (powerful God)
אֲבִיעַד (petpetual father)
שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם (Head of peace)

Your Jewish website chabad lies and changes the order of the words, when it is clearly His name shall be called Everlasting Father, Almighty God etc and not just prince of peace.



He acted as God in represenatational manner but wasn't actually God? That's called idolatry. If when Thomas bowed before the risen Christ and said "My Lord and my God!" Jesus wasn't actually God but just a representative like an angel, Jesus would be an idol.

He is given authority from God the Father because He derives His essence from Him and submits to Him. As you put it, YHWH's "intelligent aspect" still submits to the Will of the Father because He is derived from the Father. That doesn't mean that He isn't therefore of the same Essence and therefore fully God.

I'm very eager to still hear your answer.

Please, tell me if God is Trinity and Trinity is God, which person of the Trinity speaks when God speaks in a SINGULAR PERSONAL pronoun: I AM YAHWEH, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God?

1.And which person of the Trinity ‘causes His sun to rise?’ Which person of the Trinity ‘gives rain on the earth and sends water on the field’?

 

[andrewlya]

'Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.' Jesus confirms that Father is the God Jews worship in John 8:54

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”-John 20:17. Jesus has his God, the same God the Father.

The Old Testament shows the same thing that our Father is Yahweh and God in Sirach 23 we read: 4 O Yahweh, my Father, God of my life, keep me from being arrogant; 5 protect me from evil desires.

'But now, O Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay, and You are our potter; we are all the work of Your Hand.'-Isaiah 64:8.

So where is Trinity in the Bible? It's a Catholic doctrine.

 

[andrewlya]

Another thing I notice when one tries to prove the Trinity the whole focus is placed on proving that Jesus is God, but trinity is 3 persons not two.

Does anyone have a verse where the 3rd person of Trinity is worshipped and prayed to? If not, why not?

 

[Tzimis]

But there are still billion of humans, if one God was in a million of divine persons it would still be one God.Dont you see a bit of an issue here? Then you call Hindus polytheists because they worship many gods but 3 distinct divine persons are already too many divine persons to worship. 3 divine persons is polytheism, worship of more than one divine person is polytheism.If Trinity was just one person, it would make sense but sadly there are 3 divine persons and each of them is fully God. Now you tell me how you worship one God.

By the way, can you show me a verse that says that the Father is the Divine Essence,please?

There is no issue. Language and mathematics are limited and can never fully explain the vastness of god. Its a tool and not used for exactness of descriptions.
I give you and example.
For centuries man has tried to explain the rotation of the heavens using calendars.
Non are completely accurate. They come close. its an approximation. because the heavens are living, breathing and a tool like mathematics if capable of explaining it fully would be a god in itself.
Secondly, essence is is a word that describes the limits of our knowledge, its what god is, a divine essence. Once we go beyond that. Its like trying to explain the origins of man.its a guess.

 

[Tzimis]

Persons on the other hand can be explained. They are people, a personally.
The comforter is a person because god AKA Christ told the believers the he is sending them a person called the comforter. He then becomes an identity because Christ named him directly. A name. So we have three named persons that carry the badge of god.
A person is someone you can relate too, has distinguished attributes, Some of these attributes is what distinguishes them from the other. Thats why they are individualized.

 

[biro]

I’ve already posted this, I’ll do so again:



Matthew 28:19
King James Version


19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Exactly what you asked for.

 

[recent convert]

Another thing I notice when one tries to prove the Trinity the whole focus is placed on proving that Jesus is God, but trinity is 3 persons not two.

Does anyone have a verse where the 3rd person of Trinity is worshipped and prayed to? If not, why not?

John 16 speaks of the Holy Spirit in His divinity which you either misunderstand or deny indicative of the spirit of those who threw the Apostles out of the synagogue.

 

[Ainnir]

Thread locked pending moderator review. —Ainnir