Is it true that the Orthodox can't pray with non Orthodox people?

[bwallace23350]

I have read that it is against church law for an Orthodox person to pray with other Christians who are not Orthodox. Am I wrong or right in this.

 

[Michael Seraphim]

I have read that it is against church law for an Orthodox person to pray with other Christians who are not Orthodox. Am I wrong or right in this.

If I am not mistaken, we may not pray with heretics or schismatics. But a lot of non-Orthodox are neither heretics nor schismatics

 

[David Young]

You are wrong. There is (or was, when I was last there) a prayer group in Tirana in which Orthodox and Protestant, and I think also Roman Catholics, met and prayed together.

 

[bwallace23350]

That is good to know

 

[Alpo2]

You are wrong.

AFAIK not entirely. Some local churches discourage common prayers with noin-Orthodox Christians.

 

[Ainnir]

It is discouraged. However, I think the focus is mostly on attending the religious meetings of nonOrthodox, which I'm not inclined to do, anyway. The one time I visited my parents' church after starting at our parish, I spent the whole service trying to "keep up" with the DL in my head.

I've also attended a few local prayer rallies and it's... weird. They're organized by the more charismatic groups around here. It's not that what they're praying for is bad, but the way in which they're praying for it runs directly counter to the Orthodox mindset, so I'm kind of left to pray silently as best I can, agreeing or adjusting as it seems wise.

Same thing with Protestant relatives at meals... I silently affirm what is good ("Lord bless this food" is pretty universally acceptable), and silently add or amend where necessary. My daughter goes ahead and quietly prays our own mealtime prayer afterward and crosses herself. I didn't tell her to; she just does. For me it is too bold, and I will refrain from crossing myself depending on the people present.

I can imagine some Protestants might be offended by all of this ("But aren't we basically the same?" "What's the big deal?"), but consider whether, in an inverted situation, you would appreciate being expected to conform to our prayers inwardly as well as outwardly.

 

[Arachne]

The whole of my experience with Anglican services consists of attending a couple of times while visiting with my mother-in-law. Not being familiar with the hymns, I wouldn't have been able to join in anyway, so I just followed the words and left the tunes well alone. It didn't feel like prayer; the texts were there, but the attitude lacked.

This is not to say there can't be prayerful attitude in Anglican services. I've been brought to tears in choral evensong over a broadcast, without even being present. I guess it was the particular congregation's problem. My mother-in-law found the then-new vicar squinting too heavily towards the happy clappies, and stopped attending soon afterwards.

 

[bwallace23350]

The whole of my experience with Anglican services consists of attending a couple of times while visiting with my mother-in-law. Not being familiar with the hymns, I wouldn't have been able to join in anyway, so I just followed the words and left the tunes well alone. It didn't feel like prayer; the texts were there, but the attitude lacked.

This is not to say there can't be prayerful attitude in Anglican services. I've been brought to tears in choral evensong over a broadcast, without even being present. I guess it was the particular congregation's problem. My mother-in-law found the then-new vicar squinting too heavily towards the happy clappies, and stopped attending soon afterwards.

For my wife while we were dating she went to a non denominational church. She said what she missed the most about the church when not with me was the prayers. She now likes the prayers so much she bought her grandmother a 2019BCP

 

[biro]

I wonder if this applies to people in the military. Let’s say you hear enemy fire. Somebody starts to say the Our Father. Then another person joins in. I suppose that would be okay. Everyone is full of fear at certain times.

 

[David Young]

It would be my guess that the prayer group I mentioned in Tirana was attended by Charismatic people, though I have never attended, as I was mainly in Korçë and Gjirokastër, in both of which places a friendly coexistence seems to have developed between Evangelicals and Orthodox. I don't mean they pray together, but there seems to be mutual courtesy and respect.

 

[Arachne]

For my wife while we were dating she went to a non denominational church. She said what she missed the most about the church when not with me was the prayers. She now likes the prayers so much she bought her grandmother a 2019BCP

I have a BCP in Greek, dating from 1830, in language indistinguishable from the Orthodox prayers. It's been a fascinating read.

 

[bwallace23350]

What is the reason for many being against praying with other Christians?

 

[recent convert]

In America during WW 2, a pocket prayer book in English was published for the laity. Included was a section for GIs on what to do if no Orthodox worship was possible. It said,”....participate in any of the services conducted by your chaplain; but do not partake of any of the sacraments, such as confession, holy communion, or matrimony.”

Trove

Australia’s free online research portal. Trove is a collaboration between the National Library of Australia and hundreds of Partner organisations around Australia.

trove.nla.gov.au

I suppose the layperson should know how to navigate in general at anytime based on this? The quote I took is from my own hard copy; it is not found on the link.

 

[Hawkeye]

From the Council of Laodicea, Canon 33:

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.

 

[Faith Romancer]

From the Council of Laodicea, Canon 33:

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.

Laodicea wasn't an ecumenical council though or was it? I know Rome has violated this if this was meant to be permenantly binding.

 

[Hawkeye]

The Council of Laodicea was reaffirmed in its entirety at the Council in Trullo, which came together as a disciplinary follow-up to the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils. While Rome has historically taken issue with Trullo, the Orthodox East has generally treated its canons, and thus those of Laodicea, as having ecumenical force.

 

[Alpo2]

What is the reason for many being against praying with other Christians?

My (very limited) understanding is that common faith is prerequisite for common prayer. We don't have common entirety of faith with other Christians. So basically the same reason there's no intercommunion between us and other Christians.

 

[Stephen Philips]

Our hierarchs pray with non-Orthodox, though.

 

[Stinky]

Our hierarchs pray with non-Orthodox, though.

Lord have mercy

 

[Stephen Philips]

Lord have mercy

Who are we to think we are wiser than our hierarches?

 

[Stinky]

Who are we to think we are wiser than our hierarches?

We are all called to pray for all priests everywhere. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord have mercy on the whole Church. Lord have mercy on all who don't know You Lord. LORD have mercy on the whole world. Lord have mercy.

 

[Stephen Philips]

Yes, that's true.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Who are we to think we are wiser than our hierarches?

While there is definitely a place for healthy humility and deference to our bishops (it is necessary), it is also true that their ordination does not render them automatically flawless. They can and do make mistakes and even sometimes fall into serious errors. Calling that out is not presumption or arrogance. It is also necessary.

 

[Stephen Philips]

I agree, of course. Except it seems counterintuitive to condemn multiple patriarchs. What do think about prayer with non-Orthodox, Mor Ephrem?

 

[Stephen Philips]

 

[Stephen Philips]

The people in the last video:
Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental): Patriarch Bartholomew, Pope Tawadros, Patriarch Mar Ignatius Ephrem, Catholicos Karekin, Pope Theodoros, Met. Hillarion.
Non- Orthodox: Pope Francis, Catholic Bishops, and Assyrians.

They were all praying together. Or at least, one after another.

 

[Stephen Philips]

 

[Tzimis]

I think all churches are guilty of breaking the rules. The rules are guides and not set in stone so there is a sense of economia when differing parties pray together. A complete break of the rules would be if they served in communion together. Communion is the altimate form of prayer. That is where I don't believe they would ever cross the line.

 

[Stephen Philips]

“I think all churches are guilty of breaking the rules. The rules are guides and not set in stone so there is a sense of economia when differing parties pray together. A complete break of the rules would be if they served in communion together. Communion is the altimate form of prayer. That is where I don't believe they would ever cross the line.”
Agreed

 

[LizaSymonenko]

Various Faiths often come together to pray at secular events - Veteran's Day Memorial in a park, commemoration of some national atrocity (ie. 9/11, genocides, etc.), political swearing-in ceremonies, graduations, etc.

Laity often pray together at various ceremonies - (all the above), plus school events, sporting events, hospitals, etc.

I do not believe any of the above is harmful in any way... as long as the clergy do not attend and venerate sacred objects of any other Faith. For example, the Pope kissing the Quran in my opinion was wrong... because that added validity to the Islamic Faith.

The same would be true of any heterodox clergy (or laity) partaking of Orthodox Sacraments. They are free to kiss our icons, cross, relics, etc... but, not the Sacraments.

If laity partake in personal prayer with heterodox, it is a mixed bag. I once found myself in a very stressful situation in a hospital... and I was sitting in the corner of the waiting room in tears, prayer book on my lap... when a family of Evangelicals felt the need to comfort me... so they all sat down around me... bowed their heads, took my hands... and prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Knowing the prohibition of praying with non-Orthodox... I was actually at a loss of what to do... Do I tell them to go away? No. That would be rude. As we are taught to eat meat during Lent if it is offered to us, in order not to insult our host... so, I believe praying with these good-hearted people would be acceptable.

However, going to someone's house for a Seder, or to break fast during Ramadan... well... again, in my opinion... that would not be good... because with our presence we would show acceptance of validity of their Faith.

I even refrain from wishing people Happy Eid, Happy Dawali, Happy this or that... because I do not recognize those holidays... I do wish them an enjoyable and safe weekend, or day or whatever...but, do not specifically call out their celebrations.

 

[Stephen Philips]

hmm

 

[Mor Ephrem]

I agree, of course. Except it seems counterintuitive to condemn multiple patriarchs. What do think about prayer with non-Orthodox, Mor Ephrem?

I think if they want to join us in prayer, they are most welcome, but if we pray with them, it is wrong.

 

[Stephen Philips]

I think if they want to join us in prayer, they are most welcome, but if we pray with them, it is wrong.

I'm inclined to share that view

 

[seeker_has_awakened]

In America during WW 2, a pocket prayer book in English was published for the laity...The quote I took is from my own hard copy; it is not found on the link.

What's the name of your hard copy, publisher, and the publication date? I'd like to see if I could find one on eBay or Etsy.

 

[Stephen Philips]

I think I heard that there’s an early canon of the church that forbids prayers with heretics and schismatics. The early canons of the church are not meant to be eternally binding rules or definitions of morality. The Spirit of the canon against praying with heretics or schismatics is to not be influenced by them. I think that principle can apply to us today. It’s not really wrong to pray a theologically correct prayer beside a Catholic person. What’s wrong is to be influenced by Catholicism. In my family we used to, just randomly, attend Protestant services and bible studies even though we were Orthodox. Although we may have gained some benefit, in the long run, doing so would have been damaging because we would be influenced by theological mistakes and emotional songs. So I think the moral we can take from this discussion is, without being legalistic, to have our Orthodox church as the place of spiritual growth.

 

[recent convert]

What's the name of your hard copy, publisher, and the publication date? I'd like to see if I could find one on eBay or Etsy.

Prayer Book for Eastern Orthodox Christians

compiled by Reverend Peter Horton-Billard and Reverend Vasile Hategan

translated by Rev. Archpriest Michael G.H. Gelsinger

Imprimatur: Metropolitan Antony Bashir

Armed Forces Edition of the Army & Navy Dept. of the YMCA agency of the USO c. 1944

( includes a wartime prayer of then Metr, Sergius of Moscow,the prayer seems ok in its wording but I know Sergius cooperation with Stalin has been long considered a problem but most of the world was then ignorant of Stalin’s crimes)

Much of the structure of the later & current ( since the 1950s) American Antiochian prayer book published under Metr Philip seems traceable to this edition.

 

[RaphaCam]

The Heterodox can come to pray with the Orthodox, but not the reverse. Joint prayer is forbidden as well. That's an ancient law of the Church that in my experience is preached by the average bishop, even though there are examples of even high-ranking bishops disrespecting it.

 

[seeker_has_awakened]

Prayer Book for Eastern Orthodox Christians

compiled by Reverend Peter Horton-Billard and Reverend Vasile Hategan

translated by Rev. Archpriest Michael G.H. Gelsinger

Imprimatur: Metropolitan Antony Bashir

Armed Forces Edition of the Army & Navy Dept. of the YMCA agency of the USO c. 1944

( includes a wartime prayer of then Metr, Sergius of Moscow,the prayer seems ok in its wording but I know Sergius cooperation with Stalin has been long considered a problem but most of the world was then ignorant of Stalin’s crimes)

Much of the structure of the later & current ( since the 1950s) American Antiochian prayer book published under Metr Philip seems traceable to this edition.

Thanks!