• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Is it true that the Orthodox can't pray with non Orthodox people?

bwallace23350

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2020
Messages
226
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Alabama
Faith
Anglican
Jurisdiction
ACNA
I have read that it is against church law for an Orthodox person to pray with other Christians who are not Orthodox. Am I wrong or right in this.
 

Michael Seraphim

Sr. Member
BANNED
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
167
Reaction score
17
Points
18
Location
Indonesia
Faith
Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction
Ecumenical Patriarchate
I have read that it is against church law for an Orthodox person to pray with other Christians who are not Orthodox. Am I wrong or right in this.
If I am not mistaken, we may not pray with heretics or schismatics. But a lot of non-Orthodox are neither heretics nor schismatics
 

David Young

Archon
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
2,209
Reaction score
9
Points
38
Age
74
Location
Wrexham, North Wales
Website
primitivemethodism.com
Faith
Baptist
Jurisdiction
local church, Wrexham
You are wrong. There is (or was, when I was last there) a prayer group in Tirana in which Orthodox and Protestant, and I think also Roman Catholics, met and prayed together.
 

Alpo2

High Elder
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
513
Reaction score
170
Points
43
Faith
Fenno-Ugric Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Senior Patriarchate

Ainnir

Taxiarches
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
7,242
Reaction score
669
Points
113
Age
38
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
It is discouraged. However, I think the focus is mostly on attending the religious meetings of nonOrthodox, which I'm not inclined to do, anyway. The one time I visited my parents' church after starting at our parish, I spent the whole service trying to "keep up" with the DL in my head.

I've also attended a few local prayer rallies and it's... weird. They're organized by the more charismatic groups around here. It's not that what they're praying for is bad, but the way in which they're praying for it runs directly counter to the Orthodox mindset, so I'm kind of left to pray silently as best I can, agreeing or adjusting as it seems wise.

Same thing with Protestant relatives at meals... I silently affirm what is good ("Lord bless this food" is pretty universally acceptable), and silently add or amend where necessary. My daughter goes ahead and quietly prays our own mealtime prayer afterward and crosses herself. :giggle: I didn't tell her to; she just does. For me it is too bold, and I will refrain from crossing myself depending on the people present. :confused:

I can imagine some Protestants might be offended by all of this ("But aren't we basically the same?" "What's the big deal?"), but consider whether, in an inverted situation, you would appreciate being expected to conform to our prayers inwardly as well as outwardly.
 

Arachne

Matriarch
Staff member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
12,778
Reaction score
432
Points
83
Age
49
Location
Camulodunum
Faith
Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
Jurisdiction
Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
The whole of my experience with Anglican services consists of attending a couple of times while visiting with my mother-in-law. Not being familiar with the hymns, I wouldn't have been able to join in anyway, so I just followed the words and left the tunes well alone. It didn't feel like prayer; the texts were there, but the attitude lacked.

This is not to say there can't be prayerful attitude in Anglican services. I've been brought to tears in choral evensong over a broadcast, without even being present. I guess it was the particular congregation's problem. My mother-in-law found the then-new vicar squinting too heavily towards the happy clappies, and stopped attending soon afterwards.
 

bwallace23350

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2020
Messages
226
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Alabama
Faith
Anglican
Jurisdiction
ACNA
The whole of my experience with Anglican services consists of attending a couple of times while visiting with my mother-in-law. Not being familiar with the hymns, I wouldn't have been able to join in anyway, so I just followed the words and left the tunes well alone. It didn't feel like prayer; the texts were there, but the attitude lacked.

This is not to say there can't be prayerful attitude in Anglican services. I've been brought to tears in choral evensong over a broadcast, without even being present. I guess it was the particular congregation's problem. My mother-in-law found the then-new vicar squinting too heavily towards the happy clappies, and stopped attending soon afterwards.
For my wife while we were dating she went to a non denominational church. She said what she missed the most about the church when not with me was the prayers. She now likes the prayers so much she bought her grandmother a 2019BCP
 

biro

Protostrator
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
23,770
Reaction score
277
Points
83
Age
48
Website
archiveofourown.org
I wonder if this applies to people in the military. Let’s say you hear enemy fire. Somebody starts to say the Our Father. Then another person joins in. I suppose that would be okay. Everyone is full of fear at certain times.
 

David Young

Archon
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
2,209
Reaction score
9
Points
38
Age
74
Location
Wrexham, North Wales
Website
primitivemethodism.com
Faith
Baptist
Jurisdiction
local church, Wrexham
It would be my guess that the prayer group I mentioned in Tirana was attended by Charismatic people, though I have never attended, as I was mainly in Korçë and Gjirokastër, in both of which places a friendly coexistence seems to have developed between Evangelicals and Orthodox. I don't mean they pray together, but there seems to be mutual courtesy and respect.
 

Arachne

Matriarch
Staff member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
12,778
Reaction score
432
Points
83
Age
49
Location
Camulodunum
Faith
Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
Jurisdiction
Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
For my wife while we were dating she went to a non denominational church. She said what she missed the most about the church when not with me was the prayers. She now likes the prayers so much she bought her grandmother a 2019BCP
I have a BCP in Greek, dating from 1830, in language indistinguishable from the Orthodox prayers. It's been a fascinating read.
 

bwallace23350

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2020
Messages
226
Reaction score
66
Points
28
Location
Alabama
Faith
Anglican
Jurisdiction
ACNA
What is the reason for many being against praying with other Christians?
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
2,785
Reaction score
107
Points
63
Age
57
Location
USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Antioch
In America during WW 2, a pocket prayer book in English was published for the laity. Included was a section for GIs on what to do if no Orthodox worship was possible. It said,”....participate in any of the services conducted by your chaplain; but do not partake of any of the sacraments, such as confession, holy communion, or matrimony.”


I suppose the layperson should know how to navigate in general at anytime based on this? The quote I took is from my own hard copy; it is not found on the link.
 

Hawkeye

Hyperprōtopansebastohalieus
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
1,088
Reaction score
14
Points
38
Location
Shores Where Seas Break Backs
Faith
Like unto Neronov
Jurisdiction
Old Rite, Chapelist
From the Council of Laodicea, Canon 33:

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.
 

Faith Romancer

Jr. Member
BANNED
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
35
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
USA
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
N/A
From the Council of Laodicea, Canon 33:

No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.
Laodicea wasn't an ecumenical council though or was it? I know Rome has violated this if this was meant to be permenantly binding.
 

Hawkeye

Hyperprōtopansebastohalieus
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
1,088
Reaction score
14
Points
38
Location
Shores Where Seas Break Backs
Faith
Like unto Neronov
Jurisdiction
Old Rite, Chapelist
The Council of Laodicea was reaffirmed in its entirety at the Council in Trullo, which came together as a disciplinary follow-up to the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils. While Rome has historically taken issue with Trullo, the Orthodox East has generally treated its canons, and thus those of Laodicea, as having ecumenical force.
 

Alpo2

High Elder
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
513
Reaction score
170
Points
43
Faith
Fenno-Ugric Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Senior Patriarchate
What is the reason for many being against praying with other Christians?
My (very limited) understanding is that common faith is prerequisite for common prayer. We don't have common entirety of faith with other Christians. So basically the same reason there's no intercommunion between us and other Christians.
 

Stinky

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
1,654
Reaction score
613
Points
113
Location
US
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Near/far
Who are we to think we are wiser than our hierarches?
We are all called to pray for all priests everywhere. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. Lord have mercy on the whole Church. Lord have mercy on all who don't know You Lord. LORD have mercy on the whole world. Lord have mercy.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,372
Reaction score
239
Points
63
Age
40
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Who are we to think we are wiser than our hierarches?
While there is definitely a place for healthy humility and deference to our bishops (it is necessary), it is also true that their ordination does not render them automatically flawless. They can and do make mistakes and even sometimes fall into serious errors. Calling that out is not presumption or arrogance. It is also necessary.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
I agree, of course. Except it seems counterintuitive to condemn multiple patriarchs. What do think about prayer with non-Orthodox, Mor Ephrem?
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
The people in the last video:
Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental): Patriarch Bartholomew, Pope Tawadros, Patriarch Mar Ignatius Ephrem, Catholicos Karekin, Pope Theodoros, Met. Hillarion.
Non- Orthodox: Pope Francis, Catholic Bishops, and Assyrians.

They were all praying together. Or at least, one after another.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,507
Reaction score
190
Points
63
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
I think all churches are guilty of breaking the rules. The rules are guides and not set in stone so there is a sense of economia when differing parties pray together. A complete break of the rules would be if they served in communion together. Communion is the altimate form of prayer. That is where I don't believe they would ever cross the line.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
“I think all churches are guilty of breaking the rules. The rules are guides and not set in stone so there is a sense of economia when differing parties pray together. A complete break of the rules would be if they served in communion together. Communion is the altimate form of prayer. That is where I don't believe they would ever cross the line.”
Agreed 🙏🏾
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,502
Reaction score
346
Points
83
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Various Faiths often come together to pray at secular events - Veteran's Day Memorial in a park, commemoration of some national atrocity (ie. 9/11, genocides, etc.), political swearing-in ceremonies, graduations, etc.

Laity often pray together at various ceremonies - (all the above), plus school events, sporting events, hospitals, etc.

I do not believe any of the above is harmful in any way... as long as the clergy do not attend and venerate sacred objects of any other Faith. For example, the Pope kissing the Quran in my opinion was wrong... because that added validity to the Islamic Faith.

The same would be true of any heterodox clergy (or laity) partaking of Orthodox Sacraments. They are free to kiss our icons, cross, relics, etc... but, not the Sacraments.

If laity partake in personal prayer with heterodox, it is a mixed bag. I once found myself in a very stressful situation in a hospital... and I was sitting in the corner of the waiting room in tears, prayer book on my lap... when a family of Evangelicals felt the need to comfort me... so they all sat down around me... bowed their heads, took my hands... and prayed to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Knowing the prohibition of praying with non-Orthodox... I was actually at a loss of what to do... Do I tell them to go away? No. That would be rude. As we are taught to eat meat during Lent if it is offered to us, in order not to insult our host... so, I believe praying with these good-hearted people would be acceptable.

However, going to someone's house for a Seder, or to break fast during Ramadan... well... again, in my opinion... that would not be good... because with our presence we would show acceptance of validity of their Faith.

I even refrain from wishing people Happy Eid, Happy Dawali, Happy this or that... because I do not recognize those holidays... I do wish them an enjoyable and safe weekend, or day or whatever...but, do not specifically call out their celebrations.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,372
Reaction score
239
Points
63
Age
40
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
I agree, of course. Except it seems counterintuitive to condemn multiple patriarchs. What do think about prayer with non-Orthodox, Mor Ephrem?
I think if they want to join us in prayer, they are most welcome, but if we pray with them, it is wrong.
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
98
Reaction score
34
Points
18
Location
Elsewhere
Faith
Private
Jurisdiction
Not shared
In America during WW 2, a pocket prayer book in English was published for the laity...The quote I took is from my own hard copy; it is not found on the link.
What's the name of your hard copy, publisher, and the publication date? I'd like to see if I could find one on eBay or Etsy.
 

Stephen Philips

Sr. Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
244
Reaction score
71
Points
28
Location
Ajax, Ontario
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Coptic
I think I heard that there’s an early canon of the church that forbids prayers with heretics and schismatics. The early canons of the church are not meant to be eternally binding rules or definitions of morality. The Spirit of the canon against praying with heretics or schismatics is to not be influenced by them. I think that principle can apply to us today. It’s not really wrong to pray a theologically correct prayer beside a Catholic person. What’s wrong is to be influenced by Catholicism. In my family we used to, just randomly, attend Protestant services and bible studies even though we were Orthodox. Although we may have gained some benefit, in the long run, doing so would have been damaging because we would be influenced by theological mistakes and emotional songs. So I think the moral we can take from this discussion is, without being legalistic, to have our Orthodox church as the place of spiritual growth.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
2,785
Reaction score
107
Points
63
Age
57
Location
USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Antioch
What's the name of your hard copy, publisher, and the publication date? I'd like to see if I could find one on eBay or Etsy.
Prayer Book for Eastern Orthodox Christians

compiled by Reverend Peter Horton-Billard and Reverend Vasile Hategan

translated by Rev. Archpriest Michael G.H. Gelsinger

Imprimatur: Metropolitan Antony Bashir

Armed Forces Edition of the Army & Navy Dept. of the YMCA agency of the USO c. 1944

( includes a wartime prayer of then Metr, Sergius of Moscow,the prayer seems ok in its wording but I know Sergius cooperation with Stalin has been long considered a problem but most of the world was then ignorant of Stalin’s crimes)

Much of the structure of the later & current ( since the 1950s) American Antiochian prayer book published under Metr Philip seems traceable to this edition.
 
Last edited:

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
8,788
Reaction score
168
Points
63
Age
24
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City
The Heterodox can come to pray with the Orthodox, but not the reverse. Joint prayer is forbidden as well. That's an ancient law of the Church that in my experience is preached by the average bishop, even though there are examples of even high-ranking bishops disrespecting it.
 
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
98
Reaction score
34
Points
18
Location
Elsewhere
Faith
Private
Jurisdiction
Not shared
Prayer Book for Eastern Orthodox Christians

compiled by Reverend Peter Horton-Billard and Reverend Vasile Hategan

translated by Rev. Archpriest Michael G.H. Gelsinger

Imprimatur: Metropolitan Antony Bashir

Armed Forces Edition of the Army & Navy Dept. of the YMCA agency of the USO c. 1944

( includes a wartime prayer of then Metr, Sergius of Moscow,the prayer seems ok in its wording but I know Sergius cooperation with Stalin has been long considered a problem but most of the world was then ignorant of Stalin’s crimes)

Much of the structure of the later & current ( since the 1950s) American Antiochian prayer book published under Metr Philip seems traceable to this edition.
Thanks!
 
Top