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Is support of abortion is rampant in Orthodox christians like the Catholics?

Raafat

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Hello,

I would like to know whether the Eastern Church has suffered from the prevalent culture of death in the world, especially the west now, ironic that they are the champions of human rights supposedly, or that position is still a minority in the church?

Is there any kind of activism to end this position?

Thanks!
 

FinnJames

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Raafat said:
Saxon said:
Raafat said:
biro said:
Roman Catholics are anti-abortion.
The church is, many of the supposed adherents aren't.
The same can be said for the Orthodox Church.
Are they the majority, a 50/50 split or a minority?
I'm just wondering how anyone could know this. Unless people are on the front lines of pro- or anti-abortion protests it's hard to tell where they stand on the issue.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Sadly, I know many who are pro-abortion, and recognize as Orthodox Christians. 

However, these same people rarely come to church... so, there's a bigger problem than just their thoughts on abortion.  It is all tied together.

Someone who truly understands Orthodoxy, their Faith, they would never approve of abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, stealing, lying, etc.  We may "fall" due to weakness, but we do not side with the sin, but, try to fix ourselves and our ways.
 

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Quick post from this ecumenical guest: sorry; every ethnic Orthodox politician in America I can think of is pro-death or a sellout on abortion, just like a lot of ethnic Catholics such as the former vice president and the speaker of the House. But as Liza has pointed out, the Orthodox ones probably don't go to church so at least they're not hypocritical. They just have Greek last names; big deal. But there's a lot of ignorance among churchgoers. Once a 70-some-year-old lifelong Orthodox one said to me of the babies, "They're not people!" To be fair, lots of Catholics are no better. Knowledgeable people know that both churches oppose abortion. Once all the Protestants did too.

Fair question: today's James Stewart, the talented and likable Tom Hanks, is a marriage convert to Greek Orthodoxy. What has he done to save the babies? His celebrity could go a long way for that. As the upper class once understood, with that power comes social responsibility.
 

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Raafat said:
Hello,

I would like to know whether the Eastern Church has suffered from the prevalent culture of death in the world, especially the west now, ironic that they are the champions of human rights supposedly, or that position is still a minority in the church?
What matters is what the Church teaches.  The private opinions of any adherents is on their own head. 

Raafat said:
Is there any kind of activism to end this position?
The activity of the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments.    :)
 

RaphaCam

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In my experience, support to abortion is much, much lower among church-going Orthodox Christians than among church-going Catholics, but in either church the same can't be said for the general lukewarm bunch and even a couple of religious compartimentalisers.
 

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RaphaCam said:
In my experience, support to abortion is much, much lower among church-going Orthodox Christians than among church-going Catholics, but in either church the same can't be said for the general lukewarm bunch and even a couple of religious compartimentalisers.
My guess is this was true of Catholics in the '70s and '80s when boomer Catholics who lost their faith in any real sense kept going to Mass, a habit from childhood. It's less and less true as the old pro-choicers, Catholic in name only, die off, and the young ones don't go to church anymore because there's no social pressure to, quite the opposite. So more and more what you have left in Catholic pews are 35-year-old married people with three kids, going out of their way to the traditional Latin Mass and believing all the teachings. A much smaller church than before. Similar in Byzantine Rite churches in America, Catholic and Orthodox: the ones who didn't believe left when they assimilated, and the old Orthodox in name only are dying, so the people who bother to go really believe, including on this.
 

noahzarc1

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The young fogey said:
RaphaCam said:
In my experience, support to abortion is much, much lower among church-going Orthodox Christians than among church-going Catholics, but in either church the same can't be said for the general lukewarm bunch and even a couple of religious compartimentalisers.
My guess is this was true of Catholics in the '70s and '80s when boomer Catholics who lost their faith in any real sense kept going to Mass, a habit from childhood. It's less and less true as the old pro-choicers, Catholic in name only, die off, and the young ones don't go to church anymore because there's no social pressure to, quite the opposite. So more and more what you have left in Catholic pews are 35-year-old married people with three kids, going out of their way to the traditional Latin Mass and believing all the teachings. A much smaller church than before. Similar in Byzantine Rite churches in America, Catholic and Orthodox: the ones who didn't believe left when they assimilated, and the old Orthodox in name only are dying, so the people who bother to go really believe, including on this.
I think as you rightly point out, there is a younger generation that is not going to go stand in front of an abortion clinic to prove they are anti-abortion. How the generations oppose abortion I think is what has changed. I would not characterize this current generation as any less opposed to abortion as previous ones. I am not really sure how one would measure it anyway. I grew up in the hotbed of the raging protests of the late 80's early 90's; particularly during a time when an obstetrician was assassinated in his home and several other doctors around the country were killed during the 90's. I don't know if they ever found the killers. So I would say there are many Catholics today opposed to abortion who are also opposed to blocking traffic and parking lots too.
 

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...there is a younger generation that is not going to go stand in front of an abortion clinic to prove they are anti-abortion. How the generations oppose abortion I think is what has changed.
I hadn't thought of it that way, noazarc1, but it makes me think. Thank you. I have long noticed that anti-abortion activism 1) doesn't stop abortions and 2) became a substitute for specifically Catholic life for some of the faithful, after Vatican II in practice took that culture away from them. The March for Life is more a Novus Ordo pep rally for people who don't have neighborhood processions anymore than an effective way to save babies. One of my sayings: Catholic ghetto is Christian community that liberals don't like. Good Catholics who lived through the Sixties nonsense missed that. And now the few believing kids who stay are bringing it back. The Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics had the sense not to monkey with their culture like that but have a different problem, massive losses from assimilation.
 

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I don't support abortion but I support removing religion from politics. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.."

I don't feel like I accomplish anything in terms of my salvation and relationship with Christ by forcing other people to follow the laws of the Orthodox Faith. I don't agree with it.. but what's the point of discussing it with non-Orthodox folks who don't care what we have to say? Do we think we Christ would be proud of us or happy for forcing people to follow Orthodox laws?

If people are this concerned with others not following the teachings of the Church, do they also go around and survey their neighbors to see if they are partaking in activities that would be frowned upon?

It always seemed like a way for people to feel like they're being a good Christian instead of actually working on themselves. Why pray more, fast, go help the needy, etc. when you can just sit back and be militantly against abortions.
 

LizaSymonenko

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All those go hand in hand. Standing up against abortions should also mean the person fasts, prays, and helps the needy. It is a package deal.

Additionally, we do not protest against abortion to judge those who are for it, or to puff ourselves up, but to save the lives of those humans who are yet voiceless in the womb. For the Lord instructed us to save life... all life... the unborn, the orphan, the widow, the sick, the dying, the elderly, the rich, the outspoken, the criminal... it doesn't matter... we are to stand up for all life.
 

noahzarc1

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I don't support abortion but I support removing religion from politics. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.."

I don't feel like I accomplish anything in terms of my salvation and relationship with Christ by forcing other people to follow the laws of the Orthodox Faith. I don't agree with it.. but what's the point of discussing it with non-Orthodox folks who don't care what we have to say? Do we think we Christ would be proud of us or happy for forcing people to follow Orthodox laws?

If people are this concerned with others not following the teachings of the Church, do they also go around and survey their neighbors to see if they are partaking in activities that would be frowned upon?

It always seemed like a way for people to feel like they're being a good Christian instead of actually working on themselves. Why pray more, fast, go help the needy, etc. when you can just sit back and be militantly against abortions.
Removing religion from politics is what has given us the politics we are now dealing with today.
 

Hawkeye

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I don't support abortion but I support removing religion from politics. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.."

I don't feel like I accomplish anything in terms of my salvation and relationship with Christ by forcing other people to follow the laws of the Orthodox Faith. I don't agree with it.. but what's the point of discussing it with non-Orthodox folks who don't care what we have to say? Do we think we Christ would be proud of us or happy for forcing people to follow Orthodox laws?

If people are this concerned with others not following the teachings of the Church, do they also go around and survey their neighbors to see if they are partaking in activities that would be frowned upon?

It always seemed like a way for people to feel like they're being a good Christian instead of actually working on themselves. Why pray more, fast, go help the needy, etc. when you can just sit back and be militantly against abortions.
Abortion is as much a religious question as euthanasia is, which is to say, not at all. Binding it to religion is simply a tactic to dismiss it, to reduce it to a private matter -- of faith or otherwise -- and thereby make it beyond public reproach.

It is ridiculous enough for someone to cede their place in the public square just because faith might factor into their worldview, but it's reprehensible to do so when the matter concerns life and death. Private failings are no excuse.

Regardless, all things belong God.
 

xariskai

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nikoniko said: ....I support removing religion from politics.
To be truly separate from religion (not just separate in name) politics would have to be severed from the demonic.
 
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One of my final straws before leaving "orthodoxy" was the priest stating from the amvon that "sadly abortion is necessary sometimes."
 

Ainnir

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So what are you now?
 

nikoniko

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To be truly separate from religion (not just separate in name) politics would have to be severed from the demonic.
Sure, but I’m not going to wait for everybody else to do the right thing before I do.
 

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Abortion is as much a religious question as euthanasia is, which is to say, not at all. Binding it to religion is simply a tactic to dismiss it, to reduce it to a private matter -- of faith or otherwise -- and thereby make it beyond public reproach.

It is ridiculous enough for someone to cede their place in the public square just because faith might factor into their worldview, but it's reprehensible to do so when the matter concerns life and death. Private failings are no excuse.

Regardless, all things belong God.
Let’s be honest here.. the majority of the anti-abortion crowd holds their views because of religious reasons. Don’t act like it’s not related to religion.

It’s not your life or place to interject.. It’s not your sin to prevent. Do you go out on community patrol to prevent crime? Are you this vocal about violent crime? Since that’s a moral issue too? What about capitalism and greed? Probably nothing.. when I see the anti-abortion People being vocal and acting like it’s their business I see Orthodox Christians worrying about the lives and sins of others like it impacts their salvation. Spoiler alert: it doesn’t 😒

Read, pray, fast, go help young pregnant mothers and offer counseling, do something. Sitting back from a moral high ground.. pointing fingers and trying to run somebody else’s life literally won’t go anywhere.. good luck with that though 🤙🏽
 

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Has someone done that? In this discussion or elsewhere?
What other reason would a person have for obsessing over the sins of somebody else where there is no change to make?

Does that person specifically? I don’t know. Do people do that? Absolutely, all the time. I see it almost daily where I live. It’s easier to point out the flaws in others then it is to pray more, work on your relationship with Christ, fast more, etc.
 

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Being worried about the kids?
What exactly do you do to combat abortions? Because if it’s just being vocal online then you’re just as productive as I am.

What about medical emergencies? What if you had a 13 year old child raped? You’d force your teenage daughter to carry a rape-baby to term? My biggest issue is when people act like it’s a black and white issue.. it’s not. No idea why all those Church Fathers write about the spiritual struggle of life and Faith are so simple and right or wrong 🤷🏽‍♂️

If you want to talk nuances then we can.. if you’re going to act like it’s a zero-sum game and nobody can have an abortion or allow them and be Christians then there’s no point in talking.
 

xariskai

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To be truly separate from religion (not just separate in name) politics would have to be severed from the demonic.
Sure, but I’m not going to wait for everybody else to do the right thing before I do.
If a person holds a religious value (any religious value in principle) that is also a political issue would you claim there is some imperative for a religious person to oppose that religious value's implementation in the political sphere?
 
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hecma925

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What exactly do you do to combat abortions?
Set fire to abortion clinics. It's great, because no one gets hurt.

hecma925: Even if this is a tongue-in-cheek joke (and it is not apparent to everyone that it is), advocating the use of violence for whatever reason is not acceptable. Don't do it again here, or you WILL receive a warning.
Pravoslavbob, Non-Religious Topics Moderator
 
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ROCOR is definitely anti-abortion, if you go about their consistent stands on moral issues. ROCOR hierarchs in the past have protested against homosexual "marriage", closing churches due to the coronavirus, and other moral issues. In DC, ROCOR parishioners have shown up at the March for Life. I wouldn't be surprised to see the ROCOR Synod of Bishops issuing a pro-life amicus curiae brief if there is another court case challenging Roe v. Wade.
 

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Salem, Rafaat. Everyone who is a repentant member of the church, seeking Christ, would follow the faith that the church received from the time of the Apostles with a whole heart. The church is not a democracy, we follow the faith we received. If anyone doubts that what the church teaches is what was taught in the time of the apostles, they can just look to the Didache. The Didache is an early Christian document, which some historians believe was written before the New Testament was finished. It explicitly forbids abortion. Belief that life begins from conception is part of the apostolic faith received by the church, from Christ, through the apostles. There may be those who identify as Orthodox, who stray from the faith. How many, I don't know!
 

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Numbers 5:11-31


11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— 14 if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance.


16 ‘And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord. 17 The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 Then the priest shall stand the woman before the Lord, uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 And the priest shall put her under oath, and say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you, and if you have not gone astray to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you”— 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh [a]rot and your belly swell; 22 and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”

‘Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”


23 ‘Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape them off into the bitter water. 24 And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her to become bitter. 25 Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, shall wave the offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her and become bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children.


29 ‘This is the law of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, and he becomes jealous of his wife; then he shall stand the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute all this law upon her. 31 Then the man shall be free from [b]iniquity, but that woman shall bear her [c]guilt.’ ”
 

hecma925

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Numbers 5:11-31


11 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught— 14 if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself— 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it is a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance.


16 ‘And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord. 17 The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 Then the priest shall stand the woman before the Lord, uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering for remembering in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 And the priest shall put her under oath, and say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you, and if you have not gone astray to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you”— 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman—“the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh [a]rot and your belly swell; 22 and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make your belly swell and your thigh rot.”

‘Then the woman shall say, “Amen, so be it.”


23 ‘Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape them off into the bitter water. 24 And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her to become bitter. 25 Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman’s hand, shall wave the offering before the Lord, and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn it on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her and become bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children.


29 ‘This is the law of jealousy, when a wife, while under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, 30 or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, and he becomes jealous of his wife; then he shall stand the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute all this law upon her. 31 Then the man shall be free from [b]iniquity, but that woman shall bear her [c]guilt.’ ”
That's exactly just like abortion. Nailed it.
 

RaphaCam

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This rite obviously brought the guilt of abortion upon the woman who swore she couldn't be pregnant. There is a guilt, belonging to the person who committed adultery and broke an oath that could have otherwise spared the fruit of this adultery, not a blameless woman who chose to interrupt a pregnancy. Also, as repeatedly stated across the text, the rite is meant to satisfy the "spirit of jealousy" (the hardness of heart), it's not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it's not possible in the New Testament. It's a huge stretch to read it as an okay sign for abortion.
 

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The early church fathers were against abortion.

Abortion is a form of child sacrifice, how could anyone orthodox condone it?

Abortion is even mentioned in the didache.
 
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