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Is the government of Russia part of the Holy Rus?

Second Chance

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Although the setting is political, I believe that we could address here the religious implications of the Ukrainian crisis.

Setting: Great Lent/Holy Week 2014. Russia has invaded Ukraine, annexed Crimea, is causing unrest in Easter Ukraine and has massed troops on Ukraine's border.

Religious implications/questions:

Is President Putin a nominal Orthodox, what it is called a "candle holder" or is he a true member? If the latter, why has he caused this crisis and continues to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine? If the former, why is Patriarch Kirill such an ardent supporter?

If the Russian governing class is still composed of bunch of goons that wrap themselves in the Romanov flag rather than the hammer and sickle, is the idea of a Holy Rus bogus?

If the Russian Orthodox Church is supporting a government of goons, hasn't she learned anything from history?
 

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We are commanded not to judge anyone regardless of political affiliation. Putin can should be criticized without questoning his religious views. IMO that is really none of our business. His political views on the other hand... :police:
 

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Big ole huge pile of messy and very dry wood....



Holy Tuesday....perfect time to pass out the matches...


 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Is President Putin a nominal Orthodox, what it is called a "candle holder" or is he a true member? If the latter, why has he caused this crisis and continues to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine? If the former, why is Patriarch Kirill such an ardent supporter?
Different people have different opinions about what it means to be a true member. Ideally, Ukraine would be at peace within and without, but I can't speak for what's happening now.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian governing class is still composed of bunch of goons that wrap themselves in the Romanov flag rather than the hammer and sickle, is the idea of a Holy Rus bogus?
I never thought of Holy Rus as being physical inasmuch as it was spiritual, a reflection of the Heavenly Kingdom in a particular context, the legacy of Russian saints. It may very well align with worldly powers but it certainly doesn't have to. I don't see why a bunch of goons have to ruin it for the rest of us.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian Orthodox Church is supporting a government of goons, hasn't she learned anything from history?
I ask this sincerely, what should she have learned?
 

Second Chance

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Alpo said:
We are commanded not to judge anyone regardless of political affiliation. Putin can should be criticized without questoning his religious views. IMO that is really none of our business. His political views on the other hand... :police:
You cannot deny that the Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus has allied himself (and by extension the ROC) with Putin. In this context, Putin's religion (or lack thereof) is important.

I simply cannot cease wandering how an Orthodox Christian leader can do the things that Putin has done during Great Lent and now during the Holy Week.
 

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The point is...

for two weeks now...there has been a -new- thread about the current issues in Ukraine and Russia every single day, and threads that were not about it were suddenly transformed into ones about the issue.

There are many emotions involved...and people cannot -help- themselves but start the inevitable back and forth.


It's like watching a crowd of people fighting with bamboo skewers...poking and poking and poking at each other until everyone is sore...and everyone is -already- sore...

its like seeing a bear be baited into attacking...distressing and sad. :'(



 

Second Chance

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Hawkeye said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Is President Putin a nominal Orthodox, what it is called a "candle holder" or is he a true member? If the latter, why has he caused this crisis and continues to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine? If the former, why is Patriarch Kirill such an ardent supporter?
Different people have different opinions about what it means to be a true member. Ideally, Ukraine would be at peace within and without, but I can't speak for what's happening now.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian governing class is still composed of bunch of goons that wrap themselves in the Romanov flag rather than the hammer and sickle, is the idea of a Holy Rus bogus?
I never thought of Holy Rus as being physical inasmuch as it was spiritual, a reflection of the Heavenly Kingdom in a particular context, the legacy of Russian saints. It may very well align with worldly powers but it certainly doesn't have to. I don't see why a bunch of goons have to ruin it for the rest of us.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian Orthodox Church is supporting a government of goons, hasn't she learned anything from history?
I ask this sincerely, what should she have learned?
A starting point is the article by Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfayev), Atheism and Orthodoxy in Modern Russia, where he says

"I should like to begin with the following questions. How did it happen that the country known as 'Holy Russia', with such a long history of Orthodox Christianity, was in a very short period of time turned by the Bolsheviks into 'the first atheist state in the world'? How was it possible that the very same people who were taught religion in secondary schools in the 1910s with their own hands destroyed churches and burned holy icons in the 1920s? What is the explanation of the fact that the Orthodox Church, which was so powerful in the Russian Empire, was almost reduced to zero by its former members?

I should say at once that I cannot interpret what happened in Russia in 1917 as an accident, the seizure of power by a small group of villains. Rather I perceive in the Russian revolution the ultimate outcome of the processes which were going on within the pre-revolutionary society and so, to a considerable extent, within the Russian Church (as there was no separation between Church and society). I would claim that the Russian revolution was the offspring of both the Russian monarchy and the Church. The roots of the post-revolutionary atheism should be looked for in pre-revolutionary Russian society and in the Church."

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/01/atheism-and-orthodoxy-in-modern-russia.html
 
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Hawkeye said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
Is President Putin a nominal Orthodox, what it is called a "candle holder" or is he a true member? If the latter, why has he caused this crisis and continues to foment unrest in Eastern Ukraine? If the former, why is Patriarch Kirill such an ardent supporter?
Different people have different opinions about what it means to be a true member. Ideally, Ukraine would be at peace within and without, but I can't speak for what's happening now.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian governing class is still composed of bunch of goons that wrap themselves in the Romanov flag rather than the hammer and sickle, is the idea of a Holy Rus bogus?
I never thought of Holy Rus as being physical inasmuch as it was spiritual, a reflection of the Heavenly Kingdom in a particular context, the legacy of Russian saints. It may very well align with worldly powers but it certainly doesn't have to. I don't see why a bunch of goons have to ruin it for the rest of us.

Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
If the Russian Orthodox Church is supporting a government of goons, hasn't she learned anything from history?
I ask this sincerely, what should she have learned?
A starting point is the article by Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfayev), Atheism and Orthodoxy in Modern Russia, where he says

"I should like to begin with the following questions. How did it happen that the country known as 'Holy Russia', with such a long history of Orthodox Christianity, was in a very short period of time turned by the Bolsheviks into 'the first atheist state in the world'? How was it possible that the very same people who were taught religion in secondary schools in the 1910s with their own hands destroyed churches and burned holy icons in the 1920s? What is the explanation of the fact that the Orthodox Church, which was so powerful in the Russian Empire, was almost reduced to zero by its former members?

I should say at once that I cannot interpret what happened in Russia in 1917 as an accident, the seizure of power by a small group of villains. Rather I perceive in the Russian revolution the ultimate outcome of the processes which were going on within the pre-revolutionary society and so, to a considerable extent, within the Russian Church (as there was no separation between Church and society). I would claim that the Russian revolution was the offspring of both the Russian monarchy and the Church. The roots of the post-revolutionary atheism should be looked for in pre-revolutionary Russian society and in the Church."

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/01/atheism-and-orthodoxy-in-modern-russia.html
That essay captures the situation brilliantly, as I have seen and studied it. 

While I don't always agree with Met. Hilarions views, he is a brilliant thinker and on this one he nailed it.  Anyone interested in Russian Orthodoxy should read it. 
 

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Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
 

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And more importantly, it's not Putin himself as an individual that is the problem.

It's the combination of two factors: the tradition of government by secret police together with messianic and expansionist imperialism.

We will always have some sort of empire. Either it will be the Western European (Luso-Spanish/Anglo-Saxon) model where a loose "guild" of money moguls has as the ultimate aim commercial hegemony, or the "classical" form of empire where actual direct annexation under a ruling military-like elite is the final aim. The former wants to have a McDonald's in every town and treats "dissidents" by social ostracism in not consuming what is "cool", the later wants a military base in every town and treat dissedents with death and torture. I'd much rather have the first.

Russia is the last country in the world to insist in the "classical" model. I hope they make the transition without spilling much blood, russian or any other. Having land access to Europe, the Middle East, borders with China, the factory of the world, and sea borders with North America, the largest consuming market, Russia could become the financial and commercial empire of the next centuries. But alas, they want the "glory" of the Soviet Union back.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
Which god do you want them to turn to?  Moloch or Baal?  Because turning to the West, responsible for the Pink Mafia, Femen, and the Banksters isn't going to bring them any closer to the Christian God.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
And more importantly, it's not Putin himself as an individual that is the problem.

It's the combination of two factors: the tradition of government by secret police together with messianic and expansionist imperialism.

We will always have some sort of empire. Either it will be the Western European (Luso-Spanish/Anglo-Saxon) model where a loose "guild" of money moguls has as the ultimate aim commercial hegemony, or the "classical" form of empire where actual direct annexation under a ruling military-like elite is the final aim. The former wants to have a McDonald's in every town, the later a military base. I'd much rather have the first.

Russia is the last country in the world to insist in the "classical" model. I hope they make the transition without spilling much blood, russian or any other. Having land access to Europe, the Middle East, borders with China, the factory of the world, and sea borders with North America, the largest consuming market, Russia could become the financial and commercial empire of the next centuries. But alas, they want the "glory" of the Soviet Union back.
That is exactly why I placed this thread here rather than on politics. The whole idea of Third Rome implies a totally coordinated, if not integrated, church-state approach to "messianic and expansionist imperialism." I would submit to you that the Russian version was inspired by the Second Rome, an echo of which survives today in the theory that Hellenism is the supra-national approach to overcoming crass nationalistic and imperialistic endeavors.
 
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vamrat said:
Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
Which god do you want them to turn to?  Moloch or Baal?  Because turning to the West, responsible for the Pink Mafia, Femen, and the Banksters isn't going to bring them any closer to the Christian God.
Good grief.  Where did they teach you such garbage?
 

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vamrat said:
Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
Which god do you want them to turn to?  Moloch or Baal?  Because turning to the West, responsible for the Pink Mafia, Femen, and the Banksters isn't going to bring them any closer to the Christian God.
To Christ, the same God who told the Jews that requiring a king to do their biding was a direct negation of Himself. The "god" that Putin and the ruling elites of Russia offer the country is far worse than Moloch or Baal: it's Satan himself, who offered Christ Himself and now offers to naïve Christians the temptation: "kneel to me and I will give you the world". That is all that the promises of Russia "saving the world" is at just the cost of affirming the totalitarian regime of its secret police. That is all that its messianic imperialistic dreams are: prelest.

Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least. It's time they give us something to be proud of again. And pride in Christianity means repentance and humility. Ousting Putin, putting old KGB officials and voluntary collaborators on trial is the *only* way to even start.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least.
I would think that the multitudes of martyrs and confessors in the Russian lands of the last century would be the glory of Orthodoxy rather than its shame.
 

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Hawkeye said:
Fabio Leite said:
Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least.
I would think that the multitudes of martyrs and confessors in the Russian lands of the last century would be the glory of Orthodoxy rather than its shame.
Identifying Holy Rus and the unholy Russian Federation as one and the same is to fail to separate chalk from cheese, surely?
 

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Hawkeye said:
Fabio Leite said:
Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least.
I would think that the multitudes of martyrs and confessors in the Russian lands of the last century would be the glory of Orthodoxy rather than its shame.
They are. But the same officials who proclaimed their glory, and are the public face of Orthodoxy, pander to the heirs of their persecutors, and maybe even to some who were actual persecutors.

One can't say you love someone when in practice you support the aggressors of the one you love. The glorification of the Holy New-Martyrs will only be complete with the corresponding "anathemas" of their persecutors and of those who chose to inherit their works.
 

vamrat

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Fabio Leite said:
Hawkeye said:
Fabio Leite said:
Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least.
I would think that the multitudes of martyrs and confessors in the Russian lands of the last century would be the glory of Orthodoxy rather than its shame.
They are. But the same officials who proclaimed their glory, and are the public face of Orthodoxy, pander to the heirs of their persecutors, and maybe even to some who were actual persecutors.

One can't say you love someone when in practice you support the aggressors of the one you love. The glorification of the Holy New-Martyrs will only be complete with the corresponding "anathemas" of their persecutors and of those who chose to inherit their works.
I think the Donatists had something to say about repentance. 
 

Second Chance

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DeniseDenise said:
The point is...

for two weeks now...there has been a -new- thread about the current issues in Ukraine and Russia every single day, and threads that were not about it were suddenly transformed into ones about the issue.

There are many emotions involved...and people cannot -help- themselves but start the inevitable back and forth.


It's like watching a crowd of people fighting with bamboo skewers...poking and poking and poking at each other until everyone is sore...and everyone is -already- sore...

its like seeing a bear be baited into attacking...distressing and sad. :'(
I am truly sorry for I was under the impression that there was a paucity of postings on what has been happening in Ukraine. I am aware that we talked about this a lot but since the Crimea affair, nothing that I am aware of. As I indicated elsewhere, I am very frustrated and ashamed as an Orthodox Christian that this is going on during Holy Week.
 

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Santagranddad said:
Hawkeye said:
Fabio Leite said:
Russia has been the shame of Orthodoxy for the last century at least.
I would think that the multitudes of martyrs and confessors in the Russian lands of the last century would be the glory of Orthodoxy rather than its shame.
Identifying Holy Rus and the unholy Russian Federation as one and the same is to fail to separate chalk from cheese, surely?
I was not the one who identified Russia with Orthodoxy; I merely ran with it.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
When you take it upon yourself to call a confessed Orthodox Christian a blasphemer, you have clearly shown that you are far worse and less of a Christian than the one you judge.
 

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I have to say that I have been surprised and disheartened by the amount of hate expressed towards Russia, President Putin, and the Russian Orthodox Church over the last couple of weeks. It is shameful.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
I have to say that I have been surprised and disheartened by the amount of hate expressed towards Russia, President Putin, and the Russian Orthodox Church over the last couple of weeks. It is shameful.
Inciting riots and invading countries is even more shameful.

Although the ROC isn't to blame.
 

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Cyrillic said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I have to say that I have been surprised and disheartened by the amount of hate expressed towards Russia, President Putin, and the Russian Orthodox Church over the last couple of weeks. It is shameful.
Inciting riots and invading countries is even more shameful.

Although the ROC isn't to blame.
Indeed.

But there's nothing unusual about devoutly religious people behaving badly in the public sphere.  Whether said behavior is because of their beliefs or in spite of them is another matter altogether.
 

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Punch said:
Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
When you take it upon yourself to call a confessed Orthodox Christian a blasphemer, you have clearly shown that you are far worse and less of a Christian than the one you judge.
It's either naïve or outright stupidity to judge people on their words instead of their acts. Putin is a murderer who rose to power based on assassinations after heading the institution that most killed Orthodox Christians in the world. His relation to Orthodoxy is just because there are enough anti-Americans in it that are willing to join him out of common hatred. Putin/Dugin's new alliance of hate is nothing short of demonic.
 

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Fabio Leite said:
Punch said:
Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
When you take it upon yourself to call a confessed Orthodox Christian a blasphemer, you have clearly shown that you are far worse and less of a Christian than the one you judge.
It's either naïve or outright stupidity to judge people on their words instead of their acts. Putin is a murderer who rose to power based on assassinations after heading the institution that most killed Orthodox Christians in the world. His relation to Orthodoxy is just because there are enough anti-Americans in it that are willing to join him out of common hatred. Putin/Dugin's new alliance of hate is nothing short of demonic.
Once again, research Donatism.  Communism was wrong and evil, but denying repentance is outright heresy. 
 

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vamrat said:
Fabio Leite said:
Punch said:
Fabio Leite said:
Putin and the FSB are the final test for the "Russian revival".

Should the Russian people, and mainly the Russian church, at last oust these blasphemers who say the name of God in vain, then Russia will have at last outgrown the worst parts of its history.

If they buy into it again, the world, the Church, and themselves, will pay a sad price.
When you take it upon yourself to call a confessed Orthodox Christian a blasphemer, you have clearly shown that you are far worse and less of a Christian than the one you judge.
It's either naïve or outright stupidity to judge people on their words instead of their acts. Putin is a murderer who rose to power based on assassinations after heading the institution that most killed Orthodox Christians in the world. His relation to Orthodoxy is just because there are enough anti-Americans in it that are willing to join him out of common hatred. Putin/Dugin's new alliance of hate is nothing short of demonic.
Once again, research Donatism.  Communism was wrong and evil, but denying repentance is outright heresy.  
Donatism is denying repentance in principle. I am saying that the attitude of Russia's ruling class, of which Putin is just the current alpha, clearly shows that they, in particular, have not repented.

They exalt the "glory" of the persecutors of Orthodoxy. They pursue the same objectives of the persecutors of Orthodoxy. They reinstate the symbols (and we know the power of icons) of the persecutors of Orthodoxy.  The only reason they "support" Orthodoxy now is because they think they can use it as yet another source of hate and despise against the West.

Again I say: what they offer to Orthodox Christians is Satan's very temptation: kneel to me and I'll give you the world. And not few Orthodox are buying it, unfortunately. It's just ironic that these are the same people who complain about the excesses in Papal powers. They obviously exist, but they are nothing compared to the kind of excesses the opressors of Russia already have and plan to boost even more.
 

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All empires fell. The FSB/KGB will in time fall as well, God willing as soon as possible. And may the intercessions of the Theotokos, supreme general of Christians, and the intercessions of the Russian New Martyrs, make the liberation of Russia from her opressors be swift for the glory of the Church, joy of the Slavs and witness to the world.
 

vamrat

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Fabio Leite said:
All empires fell. The FSB/KGB will in time fall as well, God willing as soon as possible. And may the intercessions of the Theotokos, supreme general of Christians, and the intercessions of the Russian New Martyrs, make the liberation of Russia from her opressors be swift for the glory of the Church, joy of the Slavs and witness to the world.
And then what?  Will the Theotokos make them into the next Greece?  Make them enslaved by loans?  I seriously doubt it.  The Theotokos has been a good guardian of the Russian people.  I would not expect Her to betray them so.
 

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ICXCNIKA said:
I have to say that I have been surprised and disheartened by the amount of hate expressed towards Russia, President Putin, and the Russian Orthodox Church over the last couple of weeks. It is shameful.
I must confess that I am disheartened by the resurgence of the  kind of state-church relations that existed in Russia before 1918, as well as Great Russian oppression of fellow Orthodox Christians in Georgia and Ukraine.

Putin is a murderous thug, always has been. I am judging him by his actions and I am not judging the state of his soul. But, it is true that a tree is known by its fruit, no?

Patriarch Kirill should not have backed Putin as he has made himself, and by extension the ROC, complicit in Putin's crimes. I am sorry that you see such views as hate; I apologize for not having expressed myself better. I should have said that I am saddened by this turn of events, particularly because the Russian Orthodox Church is the bulwark against the rhetorical and canonical excesses of Constantinople. Being allied with  the increasingly dictatorial Putin is diminishing the moral authority of the ROC. And, in the long run, that is a real danger for all of us, not just for the long-suffering Russian people and her unfortunate neighbors.
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I have to say that I have been surprised and disheartened by the amount of hate expressed towards Russia, President Putin, and the Russian Orthodox Church over the last couple of weeks. It is shameful.
I must confess that I am disheartened by the resurgence of the  kind of state-church relations that existed in Russia before 1918, as well as Great Russian oppression of fellow Orthodox Christians in Georgia and Ukraine.

Putin is a murderous thug, always has been. I am judging him by his actions and I am not judging the state of his soul. But, it is true that a tree is known by its fruit, no?

Patriarch Kirill should not have backed Putin as he has made himself, and by extension the ROC, complicit in Putin's crimes. I am sorry that you see such views as hate; I apologize for not having expressed myself better. I should have said that I am saddened by this turn of events, particularly because the Russian Orthodox Church is the bulwark against the rhetorical and canonical excesses of Constantinople. Being allied with  the increasingly dictatorial Putin is diminishing the moral authority of the ROC. And, in the long run, that is a real danger for all of us, not just for the long-suffering Russian people and her unfortunate neighbors.
The existance of a Second Rome does imply the possibility of a Third. ROC association with the FSB/KGB thugs against the Russian people and the world makes it impossible for Moscow to be so.
 
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vamrat said:
Fabio Leite said:
All empires fell. The FSB/KGB will in time fall as well, God willing as soon as possible. And may the intercessions of the Theotokos, supreme general of Christians, and the intercessions of the Russian New Martyrs, make the liberation of Russia from her opressors be swift for the glory of the Church, joy of the Slavs and witness to the world.
And then what?  Will the Theotokos make them into the next Greece?  Make them enslaved by loans?  I seriously doubt it.  The Theotokos has been a good guardian of the Russian people.  I would not expect Her to betray them so.
What about October 1917?  Was this not punishment for the sins of the Russian Empire?

Met. Onufry of the UOC-MP has made similar arguments. 

And now, given a chance to do things right, it seems that the dog returns to his vomit. 

I truly wish it were otherwise.
 

Luka

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The actions of every government acknowledging the Christian faith can and should be measured against the example of our Lord. It is some devilish idea to take the legitimacy for rule from the Christian faith ('I am just fulfilling my Christian duty regarding my nation/fellow-citizens' etc.) and to shun from being scrutinized - ideed judged - against the faith of Christ. It's a demonic parody of Christianity. Christ did not lay example only for the slaves, the laity and for mere citizens, but even more for masters, for those in charge, for rulers. His exaltation, His enthronement took place on His cross and because of this many say that His example is not applicable for everyday reality of governance or power, they say it's unrealistic. Well, the fact is that only this humiliated Jesus Christ of all rulers has been raised by God and made the Lord of all Lords, King of all Kings, President of all Presidents. Every ruler who confesses Him, should be aware that following Him in His understanding of power is not only realistic, but ultimately decides whether one will be ruling with Him in His Kingdom or begging mountains and hills: 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb'. There are many - at least superficially - noble agendas a ruler can be dedicated to, but only one is Christian: the Cross.
 

podkarpatska

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Luka said:
The actions of every government acknowledging the Christian faith can and should be measured against the example of our Lord. It is some devilish idea to take the legitimacy for rule from the Christian faith ('I am just fulfilling my Christian duty regarding my nation/fellow-citizens' etc.) and to shun from being scrutinized - ideed judged - against the faith of Christ. It's a demonic parody of Christianity. Christ did not lay example only for the slaves, the laity and for mere citizens, but even more for masters, for those in charge, for rulers. His exaltation, His enthronement took place on His cross and because of this many say that His example is not applicable for everyday reality of governance or power, they say it's unrealistic. Well, the fact is that only this humiliated Jesus Christ of all rulers has been raised by God and made the Lord of all Lords, King of all Kings, President of all Presidents. Every ruler who confesses Him, should be aware that following Him in His understanding of power is not only realistic, but ultimately decides whether one will be ruling with Him in His Kingdom or begging mountains and hills: 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb'. There are many - at least superficially - noble agendas a ruler can be dedicated to, but only one is Christian: the Cross.
Great observations for Holy Week ! Thank you for posting this!
 

NicholasMyra

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Luka said:
The actions of every government acknowledging the Christian faith can and should be measured against the example of our Lord. It is some devilish idea to take the legitimacy for rule from the Christian faith ('I am just fulfilling my Christian duty regarding my nation/fellow-citizens' etc.) and to shun from being scrutinized - ideed judged - against the faith of Christ. It's a demonic parody of Christianity. Christ did not lay example only for the slaves, the laity and for mere citizens, but even more for masters, for those in charge, for rulers. His exaltation, His enthronement took place on His cross and because of this many say that His example is not applicable for everyday reality of governance or power, they say it's unrealistic. Well, the fact is that only this humiliated Jesus Christ of all rulers has been raised by God and made the Lord of all Lords, King of all Kings, President of all Presidents. Every ruler who confesses Him, should be aware that following Him in His understanding of power is not only realistic, but ultimately decides whether one will be ruling with Him in His Kingdom or begging mountains and hills: 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb'. There are many - at least superficially - noble agendas a ruler can be dedicated to, but only one is Christian: the Cross.
PotM
 

Punch

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Luka said:
The actions of every government acknowledging the Christian faith can and should be measured against the example of our Lord. It is some devilish idea to take the legitimacy for rule from the Christian faith ('I am just fulfilling my Christian duty regarding my nation/fellow-citizens' etc.) and to shun from being scrutinized - ideed judged - against the faith of Christ. It's a demonic parody of Christianity. Christ did not lay example only for the slaves, the laity and for mere citizens, but even more for masters, for those in charge, for rulers. His exaltation, His enthronement took place on His cross and because of this many say that His example is not applicable for everyday reality of governance or power, they say it's unrealistic. Well, the fact is that only this humiliated Jesus Christ of all rulers has been raised by God and made the Lord of all Lords, King of all Kings, President of all Presidents. Every ruler who confesses Him, should be aware that following Him in His understanding of power is not only realistic, but ultimately decides whether one will be ruling with Him in His Kingdom or begging mountains and hills: 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb'. There are many - at least superficially - noble agendas a ruler can be dedicated to, but only one is Christian: the Cross.
So, none of the Orthodox kings in history, including the ones we consider Saints, were Christian because they did not live up to your bull manure view of the way the world turns?
 

Luka

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podkarpatska said:
Great observations for Holy Week ! Thank you for posting this!
You're welcome!
Punch said:
So, none of the Orthodox kings in history, including the ones we consider Saints, were Christian because they did not live up to your bull manure view of the way the world turns?
There is a difference between trying to live up to Christ's example and ignoring it except for externals. It's interesting how Christian kings of old had often a deep conviction that they are only kings serving another and greater King, who was for them a model of justice. Contemporary "Christian" rulers seem rather to follow an Enlightenment vision of God being up in the sky having nothing to do with day-to-day politics.
 

minasoliman

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Locking thread for review.

Mina
 
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