elijahmaria
Taxiarches
Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?
I hope so, or else all the fathers of the 4th ecumenical council are in trouble.elijahmaria said:Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?
Ahh, There's one in every crowd. :laugh: :jah777 said:Theosis is indeed possible for those in communion with the Pope of Rome if they turn from their error and enter the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Not to mention many of our ancestors from Galicia, right, Father?FatherHLL said:I hope so, or else all the fathers of the 4th ecumenical council are in trouble.elijahmaria said:Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?
I think that when push really comes to shove the most Orthodox response could be, "Its none of my business."elijahmaria said:Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?
We're glad you have read the Fathers, but you are perhaps a bit to in their spirit and not enough in God's spirit. Remember, the Church is supposed to be inviting sinners to repentance, and if you so strongly feel that the Latins are in such grievous sin and error, and you say they need to come back to us in repentance, should you, me, and we all be a bit more hospitable? We don't badger sinners to repentance, we console them in love and polite admonishment. The Fathers hard-line attitudes are for ourselves, internal housekeeping, so that Orthodox realize to stay loyal to Orthodox, which you faithfully and thankfully are, however, it doesn't give us a free pass to cast scathing blame on others. Repentance is not about finger pointing (John 8 )jah777 said:From the illustrious Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos:
“Thus the heretics are incurably rotten limbs of the Church and are therefore cut off from the Body of the Church. The heretics must be examined in this light. In this way one can see the Church’s love for mankind. For, as we have emphasised elsewhere as well, when someone employs erroneous medical teaching, there are no therapeutic results, one can never achieve the cure. The same is true with the doctrines or the erroneous teaching. An erroneous teaching which is based on a wrong methodology can never lead man to deification.”
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm
“The fact that the Latin Tradition came to confuse these hypostatic properties and teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds in essence from the Son as well shows the nonexistence of empirical theology. Also the fact that it reached the point of speaking about created grace, signifies that it does not have experience of the grace of God. For, when a man attains the experience of God, he then realizes well that this grace is uncreated. Since they did not reach this experience, it is obvious that there is no correct therapeutic method there. And, indeed, in the Latin tradition this therapeutic method -which we find in Orthodoxy- does not exist.”
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b05.en.the_illness_and_cure_of_the_soul.01.htm
"And again I must point out that heresy reverses the true way of man’s cure for reaching deification. If we think that purification of the heart, illumination of the nous is therapy in order for man to take the path to deification, then we understand that heresy reverses this way and leaves man permanently without a cure, without hope of cure and salvation."
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm
This thread does not have to do with the Orthodox Church’s handling of repentant sinners, but with the Orthodox Church’s understanding of the possibility of theosis for unrepentant members of heretical groups. The direct question in the OP was deserving of a direct response. Concerning hospitality, elijahmaria who initiated the thread is not a newbie who is ignorant of Orthodox teaching and interested in asking an innocent question, but a long time member and regular poster (almost 6,000 posts!) who is familiar with these teachings of our saints and Fathers but seems to prefer to ignore them.HabteSelassie said:Remember, the Church is supposed to be inviting sinners to repentance, and if you so strongly feel that the Latins are in such grievous sin and error, and you say they need to come back to us in repentance, should you, me, and we all be a bit more hospitable? We don't badger sinners to repentance, we console them in love and polite admonishment. The Fathers hard-line attitudes are for ourselves, internal housekeeping, so that Orthodox realize to stay loyal to Orthodox, which you faithfully and thankfully are, however, it doesn't give us a free pass to cast scathing blame on others. Repentance is not about finger pointing (John 8 )
But you are also seeming to ignore them, because again, the Fathers define sin for internal housekeeping, that we who are already Orthodox properly understand sin, sound doctrine, and acceptable theology. However, as to regards to outsiders, all such sinners should be treated with kindness, and accepted with hospitality and love that they might be drawn to repentance. The Church is a spiritual hospital, and when you go the ER the staff doesn't coerce you with finger-pointing and name-calling and a cosmic guilt trip, they simply get straight to work caring for the sick. Sinners are spiritually sick, they need a little tender love and care, not to have the Book thrown at themjah777 said:This thread does not have to do with the Orthodox Church’s handling of repentant sinners, but with the Orthodox Church’s understanding of the possibility of theosis for unrepentant members of heretical groups. The direct question in the OP was deserving of a direct response. Concerning hospitality, elijahmaria who initiated the thread is not a newbie who is ignorant of Orthodox teaching and interested in asking an innocent question, but a long time member and regular poster (almost 6,000 posts!) who is familiar with these teachings of our saints and Fathers but seems to prefer to ignore them.
Well, to paraphrase someone else's comment elsewhere on this board: Change? In *Orthodoxy*?? Is outrage!!!moronikos said:Wow, leave the board for 6 years, and nothing much has changed.
I Agree With.....jah777 said:From the illustrious Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos:
“Thus the heretics are incurably rotten limbs of the Church and are therefore cut off from the Body of the Church. The heretics must be examined in this light. In this way one can see the Church’s love for mankind. For, as we have emphasised elsewhere as well, when someone employs erroneous medical teaching, there are no therapeutic results, one can never achieve the cure. The same is true with the doctrines or the erroneous teaching. An erroneous teaching which is based on a wrong methodology can never lead man to deification.”
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm
“The fact that the Latin Tradition came to confuse these hypostatic properties and teaches that the Holy Spirit proceeds in essence from the Son as well shows the nonexistence of empirical theology. Also the fact that it reached the point of speaking about created grace, signifies that it does not have experience of the grace of God. For, when a man attains the experience of God, he then realizes well that this grace is uncreated. Since they did not reach this experience, it is obvious that there is no correct therapeutic method there. And, indeed, in the Latin tradition this therapeutic method -which we find in Orthodoxy- does not exist.”
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b05.en.the_illness_and_cure_of_the_soul.01.htm
"And again I must point out that heresy reverses the true way of man’s cure for reaching deification. If we think that purification of the heart, illumination of the nous is therapy in order for man to take the path to deification, then we understand that heresy reverses this way and leaves man permanently without a cure, without hope of cure and salvation."
http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.09.htm
There he is! See, I knew sooner or later he would turn up!! :laugh:stashko said:I Agree With.....
Jah777 He said it better than i could...He's Right ,Our Holy Orthodox Fathers Know Best ......olice:
elijahmaria said:Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?
But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
Good to read you again, Moronikos. How have you been?moronikos said:Wow, leave the board for 6 years, and nothing much has changed.
/\ /\Asteriktos said:elijahmaria said:Is it possible to have a fruitful spiritual life if one is in communion with Rome?![]()
Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
Anybody is able to pray - the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu. But only the baptized have the Holy Spirit living inside them and without His indwelling there is, IMO, no process of divinisation.HabteSelassie said:greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Given that the unbaptized cannot experience theosis, do you believe that the unbaptized are definitely damned?Irish Hermit said:Anybody is able to pray - the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu. But only the baptized have the Holy Spirit living inside them and without His indwelling there is, IMO, no process of divinisation.HabteSelassie said:greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Saint Seraphim of Sarov reveals during the transfiguration which he underwent in the company of Motovilov that theosis and the accompanying phenomena are not available to those outside the Church.
Such things are not accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Please see
St. Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation With Nicholas Motovilov
A Wonderful Revelation to the World
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx
I think that the unbaptized being potentially damned as you put it is a given, what I am asking is if theosis is strictly limited to the Divine Mysteries or if it is a process of prayer in general? Is any communication or experience of God theosis in a more gradual sense? I mean this to say that what is it that brings converts and catechumens into Faith if not a connection with God? What is theosis if not a connection with God? These are merely my humble investigations, which is why I asked what the Fathers may have said specifically regarding theosis and prayer. Also what about Acts 11:44-48?Cavaradossi said:Given that the unbaptized cannot experience theosis, do you believe that the unbaptized are potentially damned?Irish Hermit said:Anybody is able to pray - the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu. But only the baptized have the Holy Spirit living inside them and without His indwelling there is, IMO, no process of divinisation.HabteSelassie said:greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Saint Seraphim of Sarov reveals during the transfiguration which he underwent in the company of Motovilov that theosis and the accompanying phenomena are not available to those outside the Church.
Such things are not accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Please see
St. Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation With Nicholas Motovilov
A Wonderful Revelation to the World
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Beautiful!...just beautiful. This is edging up to being my most favorite response thus far in a range of excellent responses, and I include the more negative ones as well. I very much appreciate the thoughtful responses, because as Jah says, I do have some idea what I am asking...and I am humbled by each response that I read.Shanghaiski said:Does theosis equal salvation? I don't know. Does it equal the mercy of God, I don't know. Perhaps we talk about theosis too much, as if it were something in the abstract, and not a dynamic mystery. I believe schism and heresy can offer hindrances, but God is trying to save everyone, not just the Orthodox. And for those who do not have Orthodoxy, whether they be pagans, Jews, heterodox, or deluded Orthodox, there is one word that, my priest says, is not in God's dictionary--hopeless.
St. Silouan the Athonite, IIRC, was troubled over the salvation the Orthodox, the non-Orthodox, indeed all mankind for he was a great saint. Who can tell the vigils and prayers he made on behalf of all men? In prayer, being troubled very much in spirit about the salvation of mankind, the Lord Christ appeared to him that He would have mercy upon each person who asked Him for mercy even once. St. Silouan then asked, what about those who had left all to follow the Lord? The Lord said that these would be His friends, the others he would merely have mercy upon.
Merely. This is not any small thing. The mercy of God is deeper than the ocean, broader than the sky, higher than the heavens, sweeter than honey, and better than life itself, or even many lives. It endures forever.
So, about theosis, I don't even know about myself. But I ask God to have mercy on me and all mankind.
HabteSelassie said:Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
I think that the unbaptized being potentially damned as you put it is a given, what I am asking is if theosis is strictly limited to the Divine Mysteries or if it is a process of prayer in general? Is any communication or experience of God theosis in a more gradual sense? I mean this to say that what is it that brings converts and catechumens into Faith if not a connection with God? What is theosis if not a connection with God? These are merely my humble investigations, which is why I asked what the Fathers may have said specifically regarding theosis and prayer. Also what about Acts 11:44-48?Cavaradossi said:Given that the unbaptized cannot experience theosis, do you believe that the unbaptized are potentially damned?Irish Hermit said:Anybody is able to pray - the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu. But only the baptized have the Holy Spirit living inside them and without His indwelling there is, IMO, no process of divinisation.HabteSelassie said:greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Saint Seraphim of Sarov reveals during the transfiguration which he underwent in the company of Motovilov that theosis and the accompanying phenomena are not available to those outside the Church.
Such things are not accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Please see
St. Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation With Nicholas Motovilov
A Wonderful Revelation to the World
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
I am in now way trying to suggest that full theosis is possible outside of the Mysteries, however I am trying to understand what part theosis may have in the conversion experience which brings folks into the Church.
Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
Very definitely not. Saying the unbaptized are damned is contrary to the teaching of the holy apostles.Cavaradossi said:Given that the unbaptized cannot experience theosis, do you believe that the unbaptized are definitely damned?Irish Hermit said:Anybody is able to pray - the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu. But only the baptized have the Holy Spirit living inside them and without His indwelling there is, IMO, no process of divinisation.HabteSelassie said:greetings in that divine and most precious name of our lord and savior jesus christ!
So is prayer separate from theosis according to the fathers?Irish Hermit said:Is theosis possible outside the Church? For those who are not baptized into Christ? For those who do not have Holy Communion?William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).
stay blessed,
habte selassie
Saint Seraphim of Sarov reveals during the transfiguration which he underwent in the company of Motovilov that theosis and the accompanying phenomena are not available to those outside the Church.
Such things are not accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Please see
St. Seraphim of Sarov's Conversation With Nicholas Motovilov
A Wonderful Revelation to the World
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx
Is this part of your experience when interacting with Orthodox - some of them (many of them?) believe Catholics are going to hell? I can absolutely assure you that this is not the teaching of the bishops and the priests, so God only knows where the laity are picking this up.HandmaidenofGod said:I know, I was just trying to keep it light and funny before the thread devolved into "All Catholics are going to hell". :J Michael said:I know---very sad, isn't it? On the other hand, Matt. 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." He didn't specify what the "where" should look like.![]()
I didn't say they produced the 'fruits of theosis'. In fact quite the opposite. My point was that the thread title asks about 'theosis' but in the body of her post 'elijahmaria' asked about a fruitful spiritual life. And they are not the same question--at least not without considerable definition of exactly what is meant by 'fruits' and 'spiritual'.William said:But witega, if someone produces the fruits of theosis how do they not have it?witega said:You're asking 2 separate questions.
Gandhi to all external knowledge found a fulfilling spiritual life in his particular version of Hindu ascetism and produced visible fruits of virtue. St. Paul speaks of pagans who produce the fruits of moral virtue through observance of natural law, and the best evidence that some pagan found their beliefs spiritually fulfilling is that they didn't immediately replace them upon hearing the Word of God. But theosis comes only through union with Jesus Christ.
(And no, I'm not saying that Roman Catholics are the same as pagans. I'm using an extreme example to point out that the question of whether they are able to have 'fruitful spiritual lives' is a separate question from whether they experience theosis).