Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
This seems to be Papist's department, but I don't know if he is around.Wyatt said:I would be interested in reading it if it exists.Peter J said:I recall reading many of these sorts of explanations of the Orthodox position on the essence/energies distinction.
Does anyone know of a good Roman Catholic treatise that responds to the Orthodox position?
Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
I seem to recall that he didn't agree with Palamism either. The more I hear the more I agree with Papist.Peter J said:This seems to be Papist's department, but I don't know if he is around.Wyatt said:I would be interested in reading it if it exists.Peter J said:I recall reading many of these sorts of explanations of the Orthodox position on the essence/energies distinction.
Does anyone know of a good Roman Catholic treatise that responds to the Orthodox position?
Peter J said:elijahmaria said:Torrell would agree with you. I suppose what I was remembering was the text of a lecture where the instructor indicated that the phrase created grace was never used by St. Thomas without the explanation that is offered in Torrell's text below. I went back and listened to the pertinent section of the lecture and found that I had conflated two ideas and drawn the wrong conclusion. Nevertheless the notion of created grace is not what Orthodox believers generally say that it is in fact:Peter J said:I was under the impression that he did talk about "created grace", so I took a look (not a very thorough look tbh). I managed to find "Is there created grace in Christ?" Now I haven't analysed this very thoroughly, and I can think of a number of possible alternatives (I wouldn't even rule out the possibility that "created grace" is actually a bad translation of something Aquinas said -- just consider situation with the phrase "praying to the saints"). But it appears to go against the idea that 'The phrase "created grace" comes later' than Aquinas.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9s4qJ78nzW8C&pg=PA182&lpg=PA182&dq=Does+Aquinas+use+the+phrase+created+grace&source=bl&ots=rfgAVqHU82&sig=JdWlRNi-OYBUbDno6ITjxzUji4k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QMcYT6O6JuHx0gGg2rjqCw&ved=0CG4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Does%20Aquinas%20use%20the%20phrase%20created%20grace&f=false
I clicked on the link, but then I decided not to wade through several paragraphs. Perhaps you could tell us what conclusion you draw from that article. Does it support:
?elijahmaria said:There is no particular phrase to be translated. He speaks of grace that comes to us in a manner that we, as God's human creatures, are capable of receiving it. The phrase "created grace" comes later.
Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
There are laws of the universe. God cannot contradict them. He made us creatures. We remain creatures. It is not about "want"...It is about "is".Wyatt said:Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
As Mary said, it's not about want. It's simply a limitation of our being. Humans and angels alike do not and will not ever fully know God. For God to make it so would destroy what we are, created beings.Wyatt said:Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
So you're saying that an all powerful God is limited by laws of the universe...laws that He himself created?elijahmaria said:There are laws of the universe. God cannot contradict them. He made us creatures. We remain creatures. It is not about "want"...It is about "is".Wyatt said:Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
The notion that a universal papacy "can be drawn from a reading of scripture" -though inferred and/or claimed enough among amateur apologists- is an anachronistic myth held by not a single major contemporary scholar. No informed major historian today believes such an office even existed in the earliest centuries of Christianity, even in Rome -yes that includes intellectually honest and/or responsible contemporary Roman Catholic historians.[1]elijahmaria said:The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin. Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.
But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.
I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
It is you rather than the Orthodox who sound like the Protestant fundamentalist -on the basis of scripture indeed! As if the position you advocate even existed in either early post-apostolic Christianity or scripture.elijahmaria said:I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
It is not just a limitation, it is also a gift from God to be unique, distinct, and independent. If we were all particles of God as the Brahmans suggest, then our own individual personalities would merely be circumstantial and temporal, our identity, our nature, would be inconsequential in the scheme of eternity. However, by the Grace of God, He has created us all as individuals, who exist as individuals, while sharing a common human nature, we are individual souls. This is how we can exist, contemplate, and either accept or reject God's reality at any given moment. If in Heaven we were to completely "know" God then we would lose this distinction, we would no longer remain independent organs of the Body of Christ, and we would be like the Brahmans say, "A drop of the Godhead coming together as many drops of water form the oneness of the Seas." It is a gift from God, that through the Resurrection, we are allowed to exist by His Will (again we are not self-existing even as spirits) for the potential of Eternity, as ourselves and all that entails. We do not merge with the Godhead, we remain our distinctive human nature, sanctified and glorified just as Jesus Christ by the Union as perfected human nature. So our distinction from God is not strictly a limitation or a punishment, rather it is a wonderful gift from God, the very gift of life. We return the favor through worship, gratitude, and love to God.Cavaradossi said:As Mary said, it's not about want. It's simply a limitation of our being. Humans and angels alike do not and will not ever fully know God. For God to make it so would destroy what we are, created beings.Wyatt said:Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
After explaining the idea that Christ is the only-begotten Son of God, whereas we can be adopted children of God, C.S. Lewis addresses the question of why God did not simply "beget many sons at the outset":Wyatt said:So you're saying that an all powerful God is limited by laws of the universe...laws that He himself created?elijahmaria said:There are laws of the universe. God cannot contradict them. He made us creatures. We remain creatures. It is not about "want"...It is about "is".Wyatt said:Why wouldn't God want us to have this knowledge and experience?elijahmaria said:Right. Not even in heaven. We remain creatures and in that way there will always be something of the divinity that can neither be experienced nor known.Wyatt said:Not even in heaven when we are glorified, our minds are restored and we are in perfect union with God?Ortho_cat said:I've heard it stated this way: we can know God so much as He reveals Himself to us, be we cannot know God as He knows Himself.
We have a creature's share in the divine life.
M.
P.S. Thanks, Wyatt, for this rare opportunity to bring in Lewis. (And take that anyone who thought that Anglicans never did anything worthwhile.)All Christians are agreed that there is, in the full and original sense, only one "Son of God." If we insist on asking "But could there have been many?" we find ourselves in very deep water. Have the words "Could have been" any sense at all when applied to God? You can say that one particular finite thing "could have been" different from what it is, because it would have been different if something else had been different, and the something else would have been different if some third thing had been different, and so on. (The letters on this page would have been red if the printer had used red ink, and he would have used red ink if he had been instructed to, and so on.) But when you are talking about God-i.e. about the rock bottom, irreducible Fact on which all other facts depend- it is nonsensical to ask if It could have been otherwise. It is what It is, and there is an end of the matter.
-Mere Christianity
St. Gregory writes:elijahmaria said:His essence and His energies are not two separate things. Not even St. Gregory goes that far...St. Basil the Great said:"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach." -St. Basil
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
M.
St. Gregory continues:elijahmaria said:IF they were indeed...in reality...two separate things then you would actually have a created reality in the energies...
M.
elijahmaria said:This is where a huge portion of the problem lies. There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.FatherGiryus said:And so we have the problem: it seems like the priority within the RCC is the magisterium, which can both pronounce and exempt dogmas, enforcing them here but permit their renunciation elsewhere. So, a RCC priest may serve in a Latin Rite parish for many years and utter the filioque as fact, but then be reassigned to an Byz-Rite Catholic parish and skip over that dogma thus rejecting it.
The magisterial charge is the charge to go and make disciples. In order to do that the Apostles and those who came after were given the Spirit led power and authority to discern and teach the truths of revelation.
I find it difficult to believe that Orthodoxy does not claim such a charge for itself.
HOW that magisterial charge is executed and whether or not there's room for discussion on points of doctrine/truth and their expression is what we are really talking about here.
Dogma is a manner of defining that which is already recognized as truth. It is not some super-Truth or hyper-Truth that trumps all other truths. The truth of revelation is the truth.
The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin. Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.
But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.
I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
elijahmaria said:This is where a huge portion of the problem lies. There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.FatherGiryus said:And so we have the problem: it seems like the priority within the RCC is the magisterium, which can both pronounce and exempt dogmas, enforcing them here but permit their renunciation elsewhere. So, a RCC priest may serve in a Latin Rite parish for many years and utter the filioque as fact, but then be reassigned to an Byz-Rite Catholic parish and skip over that dogma thus rejecting it.
The magisterial charge is the charge to go and make disciples. In order to do that the Apostles and those who came after were given the Spirit led power and authority to discern and teach the truths of revelation.
I find it difficult to believe that Orthodoxy does not claim such a charge for itself.
HOW that magisterial charge is executed and whether or not there's room for discussion on points of doctrine/truth and their expression is what we are really talking about here.
Dogma is a manner of defining that which is already recognized as truth. It is not some super-Truth or hyper-Truth that trumps all other truths. The truth of revelation is the truth.
The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin. Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.
But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.
I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
I don't think anyone is denying that. The post you're responding to said that there is no magisterium "as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church".FatherGiryus said:But, there are plenty of RCC sources that state there is a magisterium
Well, the example you gave was:FatherGiryus said:Perhaps you are not seeing my point. The problem we see is that the Pope grants the Eastern Catholics to maintain Orthodox dogmatic theology, which contradicts Rome's dogmas. It seems to us, through cause and effect, that the priority is not in the theology but in the authority.
See how this looks?
but I have a problem with the logic of assuming that everyone who doesn't say the filioque in the creed, rejects it.FatherGiryus said:So, a RCC priest may serve in a Latin Rite parish for many years and utter the filioque as fact, but then be reassigned to an Byz-Rite Catholic parish and skip over that dogma thus rejecting it.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium. Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.elijahmaria said:There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
PRECISELY!!xariskai said:It is you rather than the Orthodox who sound like the Protestant fundamentalist -on the basis of scripture indeed! As if the position you advocate even existed in either early post-apostolic Christianity or scripture.
_________________________
[1] There was nothing corresponding to even the level of Metropolitan Bishop until the Council of Nicea in AD 325. An outline of the usual picture was given here; http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42259.msg694815.html#msg694815
This is an exceptionally important element of the entire question. Our unique personhood which remains with us through everlasting life.HabteSelassie said:Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
It is not just a limitation, it is also a gift from God to be unique, distinct, and independent.
Have you never heard of a distinction without a difference?xariskai said:St. Gregory writes:elijahmaria said:His essence and His energies are not two separate things. Not even St. Gregory goes that far...St. Basil the Great said:"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach." -St. Basil
http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
M.
"According to the true faith of God's Church which by His grace we hold, God possess inherent energy that makes Him manifest and is in this respect distinct from His essence..." (Philokalia: The Complete Texts, Vol. 4, p. 411)
St. Gregory continues:elijahmaria said:IF they were indeed...in reality...two separate things then you would actually have a created reality in the energies...
M.
"Because those diseased in soul with Akindynos's delusions say that the energy that is distinct from God's essence is created, they conclude that God's creative power is created. For it is impossible to act and create without an energy, just as it is impossible to exist without existence. Therefore just as one cannot say that God's existence is created and at the same time affirm that His being is uncreated, so also one cannot say that God's energy is created and at the same time affirm that his power to act and create is uncreated" (ibid, p. 412)
Precisely; the difference is that all of the above fits in quite nicely with the historic view of the Orthodox regarding the offices of the Church but very poorly with medieval to second millennium Roman Catholic views.elijahmaria said:PRECISELY!!xariskai said:The notion that a universal papacy "can be drawn from a reading of scripture" -though inferred and/or claimed enough among amateur apologists- is an anachronistic myth held by not a single major contemporary scholar. No informed major historian today believes such an office even existed in the earliest centuries of Christianity, even in Rome -yes that includes intellectually honest and/or responsible contemporary Roman Catholic historians.[1]elijahmaria said:The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin. Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.
But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.
I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
The *actual* petrine ministry as it was understood in earliest Christianity is another thing entirely. The earliest witnesses conceived of it as operative in all bishops, as St. Cyprian and other early witnesses and all Orthodox writers who address it maintain. This historic early view of the petrine ministry in fact has continued unbroken after the Schism and to this present day. It is amateur Roman Catholic apologists who here as elsewhere wish to maintain a POV which was actually unknown, unheard of, and unspoken of in earliest Christianity even in Rome (I use the phrase amateur Roman Catholic apologists to demarcate this group -so furiously active on the internet and in print- from academic Roman Catholic historians and theologians who these days sound more like the mainstream scholars on such matters).
Any claim, therefore, that Orthodox Christians regard the biblical petrine ministry as "a load of crap" would constitute crass misrepresentation and/or gross ignorance of the Orthodox POV.
"The 'Peter Syndrome' is the automatic (and unjustified) application of anything about Peter to the bishop of Rome exclusively." (Fr. Cleenwerke, His Broken Body,p. 78).
It is you rather than the Orthodox who sound like the Protestant fundamentalist -on the basis of scripture indeed! As if the position you advocate even existed in either early post-apostolic Christianity or scripture.elijahmaria said:I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
_________________________
[1] There was nothing corresponding to even the level of Metropolitan Bishop until the Council of Nicea in AD 325. An outline of the usual picture was given here; http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42259.msg694815.html#msg694815
You got yours about the same way we got ours.
Thanks for making it so apparent.
xariskai said:Precisely; the difference is that all of the above fits in quite nicely with the historic view of the Orthodox regarding the offices of the Church but very poorly with medieval to second millennium Roman Catholic views.elijahmaria said:PRECISELY!!xariskai said:The notion that a universal papacy "can be drawn from a reading of scripture" -though inferred and/or claimed enough among amateur apologists- is an anachronistic myth held by not a single major contemporary scholar. No informed major historian today believes such an office even existed in the earliest centuries of Christianity, even in Rome -yes that includes intellectually honest and/or responsible contemporary Roman Catholic historians.[1]elijahmaria said:The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin. Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.
But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.
I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
The *actual* petrine ministry as it was understood in earliest Christianity is another thing entirely. The earliest witnesses conceived of it as operative in all bishops, as St. Cyprian and other early witnesses and all Orthodox writers who address it maintain. This historic early view of the petrine ministry in fact has continued unbroken after the Schism and to this present day. It is amateur Roman Catholic apologists who here as elsewhere wish to maintain a POV which was actually unknown, unheard of, and unspoken of in earliest Christianity even in Rome (I use the phrase amateur Roman Catholic apologists to demarcate this group -so furiously active on the internet and in print- from academic Roman Catholic historians and theologians who these days sound more like the mainstream scholars on such matters).
Any claim, therefore, that Orthodox Christians regard the biblical petrine ministry as "a load of crap" would constitute crass misrepresentation and/or gross ignorance of the Orthodox POV.
"The 'Peter Syndrome' is the automatic (and unjustified) application of anything about Peter to the bishop of Rome exclusively." (Fr. Cleenwerke, His Broken Body,p. 78).
It is you rather than the Orthodox who sound like the Protestant fundamentalist -on the basis of scripture indeed! As if the position you advocate even existed in either early post-apostolic Christianity or scripture.elijahmaria said:I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...
M.
_________________________
[1] There was nothing corresponding to even the level of Metropolitan Bishop until the Council of Nicea in AD 325. An outline of the usual picture was given here; http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42259.msg694815.html#msg694815
You got yours about the same way we got ours.
Thanks for making it so apparent.
(A) RC insists that offices above local bishop to have been instituted by divine right from the beginning, which is obscurantist historical nonsense no major contemporary scholar accepts, as described in detail above.
(B) Orthodox by contrast accept St. Justin's argument that all developments of office beyond the local bishop are not divinely ordained or necessary to the Church although they are justifiably adopted for pragmatic reasons; this is essentially the same thing writers like Fr. Laurent Cleenwercke mean when they distinguish functional from ontological primacy ("ontological" in the sense of supposedly corresponding to actual divine mandate rather than just for practical reasons) in the Church. Functional primacy is fine -for purely human/practical reasons, so long as it does not violate the necessity of the Church to be of the same mind on the issue.
1 Cor 1:10: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought."
It is historically obscurantist to claim a divinely instituted office actually existed from the beginning which looked anything like the papacy even of the 4th century -absolutely unbelievable from an academic perspective without committing intellectual suicide. Dissenting Roman Catholics holding a more Conciliar perspective have argued this point very well. This fits in just fine with what the Orthodox Church believes and practices.
Meanwhile we still have amateur Roman Catholic apologists flooding the internet with "proofs" from the Gospel of Matthew etc. ad nauseum. Go figure!
Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?xariskai said:Not just your dissenters; all major contemporary historians. And the Holy Orthodox Church!
Is that a serious question?Peter J said:Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?xariskai said:Not just your dissenters; all major contemporary historians. And the Holy Orthodox Church!
Wow.Peter J said:Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?xariskai said:Not just your dissenters; all major contemporary historians. And the Holy Orthodox Church!
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?Irish Hermit said:The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium. Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.elijahmaria said:There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Peter J said:but I have a problem with the logic of assuming that everyone who doesn't say the filioque in the creed, rejects it.
As a matter of fact, I know a number of people who doesn't say the filioque in the creed, but accept the dogma (and said so explicitly).
J Michael said:Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?Irish Hermit said:The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium. Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.elijahmaria said:There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Peter J said:Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?
FatherGiryus said:What is the sound of one hair splitting?
J Michael said:Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?Irish Hermit said:The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium. Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.elijahmaria said:There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Well of course it is! No wait, the other thing ... isn't.witega said:Is that a serious question?Peter J said:Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?xariskai said:Not just your dissenters; all major contemporary historians. And the Holy Orthodox Church!
It's Monday morning and I was only half-way through my first cup of coffee. I think I'm following now.Peter J said:Well of course it is! No wait, the other thing ... isn't.witega said:Is that a serious question?Peter J said:Wait, so are you saying that the Orthodox don't consider themselves dissenters from Catholicism? Why didn't anyone tell me this before?xariskai said:Not just your dissenters; all major contemporary historians. And the Holy Orthodox Church!
(Sorry, I guess Futurama has warped me sense of humor a little.)
I gave you a thumbnail sketch of what it was and what it was NOT...FatherGiryus said:But, there are plenty of RCC sources that state there is a magisterium: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
I'm not inventing this.