Is theosis possible for those in communion with Rome?

elijahmaria

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Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon. 
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
 

elijahmaria

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Irish Hermit said:
The citations from the Catechism are not entirely apropos since they do not address the Essence-Energy distinction, nor do they explicilty state that grace is God.  It coyly avoids that since this idea only began to be acceptable in the 1940s with the writings of Karl Rahner and was seen as a revolutionary approach at the time.  It is still not welcomed in much of Catholicism.
This too is nonsense.  Grace is God...Grace is the Indwelling in communication with each person individually.

Ask St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross...

Your Catholic formation leaves a great deal to be desired.
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon. 
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
Nonsense.  The ordinary Catholic priest has never heard of it.  Are they scripturally challenged?  It was completely unknown when I went through the Catholic educational system, primary to tertiary.

Father Adrian Fortescue writes (in the Encyclopedia article) of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration.  That comes with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
The citations from the Catechism are not entirely apropos since they do not address the Essence-Energy distinction, nor do they explicilty state that grace is God.  It coyly avoids that since this idea only began to be acceptable in the 1940s with the writings of Karl Rahner and was seen as a revolutionary approach at the time.  It is still not welcomed in much of Catholicism.
This too is nonsense.  Grace is God...Grace is the Indwelling in communication with each person individually.

Ask St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross...

Your Catholic formation leaves a great deal to be desired.
I invite you to read the work of the great theologian of last century Karl Rahner, a Jesuit theologian who died about 20 years ago. You will discover that he brought back into the Catholic Church the patristic understanding of grace as God.  But you will also discover that this was not a welcome teaching in much of the Catholic Church.  In part the Catholic Church is hampered by a lack of developed knowledge of created and uncreated and it works within the categories of natural, praeternatural, supernatural, God (categories not known in the East.)

As far as I am aware ideas on uncreated grace remain a matter of opinion within RC theological circles and have not been proclaimed as official Catholic doctrine.

For more details please see message 916 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23379.msg436474.html#msg436474

It speaks of the "rediscovery" of uncreated grace in the West commencing in the late 1930s and the 1940s with the writings of Karl Rahner.
 

elijahmaria

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Irish Hermit said:
Ortho_cat said:
460  The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

yep, that's theosis :)
Then somebody should announce the glad tidings to the Catholic faithful.   Talk of theosis and becoming "partakers of the divine nature" generally astounds them and they ask, with a glazed look in their eyes "Father, have you become a Buddhist?"   :laugh:
More nonsense.  I am surrounded by tens of thousands of Roman rite Catholics who read Scripture and know that divinization is participation in the divine life...as it is told them in Scripture.

You make yourself look silly when you do this kind of thing.  I pray you outgrow the need.
 

elijahmaria

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Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon. 
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
Nonsense.  The ordinary Catholic priest has never heard of it.  Are they scripturally challenged?   It was completely unknown when I went through the Catholic educational system, primary to tertiary.

Father Adrian Fortescue writes (in the Encyclopedia article) of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration.  That comes with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
You elide hesychasm with theosis as though they are the same thing.  They are not equivalent.

Father Adrian did not understand that the breathing exercise of hesychasm was not the same thing as the breathing exercise of the oriental monks of Tibet.  His response was culture-bound.

And yes...Your assertion that Catholics do not know that divinization/theosis is our participation in the divine life is indeed nonsense. 

PS: I know a few ignorant priests myself.  I don't evaluate Catholic teaching because of their idiocies.  I remember being told by one that the Church no longer teaches anything about grace because it is too confusing.
 

PJ

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Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon. 
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
Nonsense.  The ordinary Catholic priest has never heard of it.  Are they scripturally challenged?   It was completely unknown when I went through the Catholic educational system, primary to tertiary.

Father Adrian Fortescue writes (in the Encyclopedia article) of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration.  That comes with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
Fr. Ambrose, RCs aren't as united as you seem to believe we are. The fact that Fortescue wrote of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration -- even with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York -- doesn't mean that the Catholic Church officially sees it that way.
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon. 
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
Nonsense.  The ordinary Catholic priest has never heard of it.  Are they scripturally challenged?   It was completely unknown when I went through the Catholic educational system, primary to tertiary.

Father Adrian Fortescue writes (in the Encyclopedia article) of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration.  That comes with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
You elide hesychasm with theosis as though they are the same thing.  They are not equivalent.

Father Adrian did not understand that the breathing exercise of hesychasm was not the same thing as the breathing exercise of the oriental monks of Tibet.  His response was culture-bound.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07301a.htm

Fortescue:  There was a very faint echo of Hesychasm in the West. Latin theology on the whole was too deeply impregnated with the Aristotelean Scholastic system to tolerate a theory that opposed its very foundation. That all created beings are composed of actus and potentia, that God alone is actus purus, simple as He is infinite — this is the root of all Scholastic natural theology. Nevertheless one or two Latins seem to have had ideas similar to Hesychasm. Gilbertus Porretanus (de la Porrée, d. 1154) is quoted as having said that the Divine essence is not God — implying some kind of real distinction; John of Varennes, a hermit in the Diocese of Reims (c. 1396), said that the Apostles at the Transfiguration had seen the Divine essence as clearly as it is seen in heaven. About the same time John of Brescain made a proposition: Creatam lucem infinitam et immensam esse. But these isolated opinions formed no school. We know of them chiefly through the indignant condemnations they at once provoked. St. Bernard wrote to refute Gilbert de la Porrée; the University of Paris and the legate Odo condemned John of Brescain's proposition. Hesychasm has never had a party among Catholics. In the Orthodox Church the controversy, waged furiously just at the time when the enemies of the empire were finally overturning it and unity among its last defenders was the most crying need, is a significant witness of the decay of a lost cause.
 

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
The citations from the Catechism are not entirely apropos since they do not address the Essence-Energy distinction, nor do they explicilty state that grace is God.  It coyly avoids that since this idea only began to be acceptable in the 1940s with the writings of Karl Rahner and was seen as a revolutionary approach at the time.  It is still not welcomed in much of Catholicism.
This too is nonsense.  Grace is God...Grace is the Indwelling in communication with each person individually.

Ask St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross...

Your Catholic formation leaves a great deal to be desired.
I thought grace was created according to Catholics?
 

Irish Hermit

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Peter J said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
Do Catholics understand theosis in the same way that we do?
If you understand it as a creature's share in the divine life?...yes.
I've never seen any magisterial proclamation on theosis from the Catholic Church.  I suspect that it is not Catholic teaching but something borrowed from the Orthodox by Catholics of the Eastern Rites as a kind of personal theologoumenon.  
Nonsense.  It is Scriptural.
Nonsense.  The ordinary Catholic priest has never heard of it.  Are they scripturally challenged?   It was completely unknown when I went through the Catholic educational system, primary to tertiary.

Father Adrian Fortescue writes (in the Encyclopedia article) of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration.  That comes with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

Fr. Ambrose, RCs aren't as united as you seem to believe we are. The fact that Fortescue wrote of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration -- even with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York -- doesn't mean that the Catholic Church officially sees it that way.
Then please give us the official magisterial teaching.

As I have mentioned the Orthodox have been rebuked here repeatedly for assuming things are Catholic teaching when in fact there is no basis in magisterial teaching.    Absent something from the Magisterium it is pie in the sky - and this is what we see here.
 

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
Ortho_cat said:
460  The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

yep, that's theosis :)
Then somebody should announce the glad tidings to the Catholic faithful.   Talk of theosis and becoming "partakers of the divine nature" generally astounds them and they ask, with a glazed look in their eyes "Father, have you become a Buddhist?"   :laugh:
More nonsense.  I am surrounded by tens of thousands of Roman rite Catholics who read Scripture and know that divinization is participation in the divine life...as it is told them in Scripture.

You make yourself look silly when you do this kind of thing.  I pray you outgrow the need.
Please be mindful that you are talking to a member of our clergy... :(
 

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Irish Hermit said:
They will then try to explain to you that eternal life is NOT about participation in Divinity but about the Beatific Vision of God.  And that is indeed the authentic Catholic teaching.

"That the blessed see God is a dogma of faith, expressly defined by Benedict XII (1336):

"We define that the souls of all the saints in heaven have seen and do see the Divine Essence by direct intuition and face to face [visione intuitivâ et etiam faciali], in such wise that nothing created intervenes as an object of vision, but the Divine Essence presents itself to their immediate gaze, unveiled, clearly and openly; moreover, that in this vision they enjoy the Divine Essence, and that, in virtue of this vision and this enjoyment, they are truly blessed and possess eternal life and eternal rest" (Denzinger, Enchiridion, ed. 10, n. 530--old edition, n, 456; cf. nn. 693, 1084, 1458 old, nn. 588, 868)."

"Supernatural character of heaven and the beatific vision"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

There is no need to point out how entirely antithetical the papal teaching is for the Orthodox.
Wow that is completely opposed to EO thought...so if Catholics believe in theosis, would they believe that they participate in the essence of God (i.e. become God by nature)?  :eek: Sounds like a slippery slope for me...if they can clearly see and "enjoy" the Divine Essence, then what stops them from participating in it?
 

elijahmaria

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Ortho_cat said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
The citations from the Catechism are not entirely apropos since they do not address the Essence-Energy distinction, nor do they explicilty state that grace is God.  It coyly avoids that since this idea only began to be acceptable in the 1940s with the writings of Karl Rahner and was seen as a revolutionary approach at the time.  It is still not welcomed in much of Catholicism.
This too is nonsense.  Grace is God...Grace is the Indwelling in communication with each person individually.

Ask St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross...

Your Catholic formation leaves a great deal to be desired.
I thought grace was created according to Catholics?
"Created grace" is a manner of speaking.  It does not mean that grace is something that is created by God, that is aside from God.  It means that God imparts himself to us in such a way so as we are not burned to a crisp by His gift of grace...so to speak.  Aquinas, who offers the teaching, never uses the phrase "created grace".  The west does not use the language of essence and energies but he speaks in terms the sun and the sun's rays by analogy.  It became common in the more recent centuries to refer to "created grace"...but the meaning is as I have described it here.

M.
 

elijahmaria

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Ortho_cat said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
Ortho_cat said:
460  The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

yep, that's theosis :)
Then somebody should announce the glad tidings to the Catholic faithful.   Talk of theosis and becoming "partakers of the divine nature" generally astounds them and they ask, with a glazed look in their eyes "Father, have you become a Buddhist?"   :laugh:
More nonsense.  I am surrounded by tens of thousands of Roman rite Catholics who read Scripture and know that divinization is participation in the divine life...as it is told them in Scripture.

You make yourself look silly when you do this kind of thing.  I pray you outgrow the need.
Please be mindful that you are talking to a member of our clergy... :(
I am mindful.  That is precisely what upsets me. 
 

Irish Hermit

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Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
They will then try to explain to you that eternal life is NOT about participation in Divinity but about the Beatific Vision of God.  And that is indeed the authentic Catholic teaching.

"That the blessed see God is a dogma of faith, expressly defined by Benedict XII (1336):

"We define that the souls of all the saints in heaven have seen and do see the Divine Essence by direct intuition and face to face [visione intuitivâ et etiam faciali], in such wise that nothing created intervenes as an object of vision, but the Divine Essence presents itself to their immediate gaze, unveiled, clearly and openly; moreover, that in this vision they enjoy the Divine Essence, and that, in virtue of this vision and this enjoyment, they are truly blessed and possess eternal life and eternal rest" (Denzinger, Enchiridion, ed. 10, n. 530--old edition, n, 456; cf. nn. 693, 1084, 1458 old, nn. 588, 868)."

"Supernatural character of heaven and the beatific vision"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

There is no need to point out how entirely antithetical the papal teaching is for the Orthodox.

Wow that is completely opposed to EO thought...so if Catholics believe in theosis, would they believe that they participate in the essence of God (i.e. become God by nature)?  :eek: Sounds like a slippery slope for me...if they can clearly see and "enjoy" the Divine Essence, then what stops them from participating in it?
There we see something clearly defined by the Pope as dogma - the blessed in heaven see and enjoy the Divine Essence.

If theosis is also a dogma we would expect a similar dogmatic statement.  Theosis is, after all. a major truth. As far as I am aware there is no papal or magisterial statement and those promoting it are really flying by the seat of their pants.
 

PJ

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elijahmaria said:
 Aquinas, who offers the teaching, never uses the phrase "created grace".
Heck, I don't think he even spoke English.
 

PJ

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Irish Hermit said:
Peter J said:

Fr. Ambrose, RCs aren't as united as you seem to believe we are. The fact that Fortescue wrote of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration -- even with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York -- doesn't mean that the Catholic Church officially sees it that way.
Then please give us the official magisterial teaching.
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I don't know if I can.

Irish Hermit said:
As I have mentioned the Orthodox have been rebuked here repeatedly for assuming things are Catholic teaching when in fact there is no basis in magisterial teaching.  
If it makes you feel any better, I have many times witness Catholics making that same assumption.
 

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elijahmaria said:
Ortho_cat said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
Ortho_cat said:
460  The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

yep, that's theosis :)
Then somebody should announce the glad tidings to the Catholic faithful.  Talk of theosis and becoming "partakers of the divine nature" generally astounds them and they ask, with a glazed look in their eyes "Father, have you become a Buddhist?"  :laugh:
More nonsense.  I am surrounded by tens of thousands of Roman rite Catholics who read Scripture and know that divinization is participation in the divine life...as it is told them in Scripture.

You make yourself look silly when you do this kind of thing.  I pray you outgrow the need.
Please be mindful that you are talking to a member of our clergy... :(
I am mindful.  That is precisely what upsets me. 
What upsets me is that you project, at least on this forum, a piecemeal view of Catholic theology.  Play up theosis as a personal predilicton.  Never mention that the Beatific Vision of the Divine Essence is the authentic Catholic teaching on life after death.  When we were kids the Beatific Vision was a frequent topic in catechism classes. 

The Baltimore Catechism....

420. Q. What is Heaven?

A. Heaven is the state of everlasting life in which we see God face to face, are made like unto Him in glory, and enjoy eternal happiness.


"God face to face,"--that is, as He is. We shall not see Him with the eyes of the body, but of the soul. That we may see with our natural eyes, two things are necessary: first, an object to look at, and secondly, light to see it. Now, to see God in Heaven we need a special light, which is called the "light of glory." God Himself gives us this light and thus enables us to see Him as He is. This beautiful vision of God in Heaven is called the "beatific vision," and thus our whole life in Heaven--our joy and happiness--consists in the enjoyment of the beatific vision.
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
 Aquinas, who offers the teaching, never uses the phrase "created grace".
Who would expect him to?

Catholic understanding is...

Natural
Praeternatural
Supernatural
God

There has been no comprehension of the very important orthodox distinction of

Created
Uncreated.
 

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Peter J said:
Irish Hermit said:
Peter J said:

Fr. Ambrose, RCs aren't as united as you seem to believe we are. The fact that Fortescue wrote of hesychasm/theosis theology as a weird aberration -- even with the Imprimatur of John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York -- doesn't mean that the Catholic Church officially sees it that way.
Then please give us the official magisterial teaching.
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I don't know if I can.

Irish Hermit said:
As I have mentioned the Orthodox have been rebuked here repeatedly for assuming things are Catholic teaching when in fact there is no basis in magisterial teaching.  
If it makes you feel any better, I have many times witness Catholics making that same assumption.
Exactly.  And that is why we cannot claim that theosis is part of Catholicism's magisterial teaching.

If you or Mary could claim it, you would have the statement on the table in two seconds flat.
 
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