Is theosis possible for those in communion with Rome?

FatherGiryus

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You and I have the distinction of both having defended Roman Catholic bishops against Mary!  :angel:

Irish Hermit said:
biro said:
Let's remember, only Irish Hermit knows what Roman and Eastern Catholics actually teach and believe, and never mind if the actual experiences of those people should differ.  ::)
biro said:
Let's remember, only Irish Hermit knows what Roman and Eastern Catholics actually teach and believe, and never mind if the actual experiences of those people should differ.  ::)
The teaching of the Catholic belief has been defined by the Pope.  See message 292.  I do at least afford him the courtesy of believing he is knowledgeable about his own belief system.   And I am not going to fudge it.  I know Roman Catholic belief somewhat thanks to passing through their primary, secondary and tertiary institutions.
 

biro

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[quote author=Irish Hermit]
The teaching of the Catholic belief has been defined by the Pope.  See message 292.  I do at least afford him the courtesy of believing he is knowledgeable about his own belief system.   And I am not going to fudge it.  I know Roman Catholic belief somewhat thanks to passing through their primary, secondary and tertiary institutions.
[/quote]

...such as The College of Stuff You Heard Somewhere from Somebody.
 

biro

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[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians. [/quote]

Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
There are excellent texts on the Internet to which I have directed your line of sight many times and you brush it all off like the texts are just so many flies on scat.
Mary,  I am not going to spend time reading through 40 pages of webtext, and I am not even sure that I will find whatever you want me to see.

You want to quote something?  Quote it.  Don't ask your correspondent to spend half an hour reading web material.
 

Irish Hermit

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biro said:
[quote author=Irish Hermit]
The teaching of the Catholic belief has been defined by the Pope.  See message 292.  I do at least afford him the courtesy of believing he is knowledgeable about his own belief system.   And I am not going to fudge it.  I know Roman Catholic belief somewhat thanks to passing through their primary, secondary and tertiary institutions.
...such as The College of Stuff You Heard Somewhere from Somebody.
[/quote]

Whatever! What an insolent little monkey...  :laugh:
 

FatherGiryus

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Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
[/quote]
 

biro

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Wow. You just called me a monkey.

The cake has been duly taken.

It's about time for that letter to my priest- and I'm sorry but neither him nor I are going to like it very much.

I just don't know what I'm going to do about the last two years of my life.

 

biro

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FatherGiryus said:
Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
[/quote]

Ah, the old codicil, the ever-so-valuable eraser: "When is a saint not a saint? When I don't like him very much..."
 

Irish Hermit

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biro said:
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
Here is a listing...

The Holy Orthodox Popes of Rome

See message 128
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13801.msg305418.html#msg305418
 

FatherGiryus

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How about this one: 'Never confuse a Holy Father with the Holy Spirit.'?

No saint is infallible.


biro said:
FatherGiryus said:
Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
Ah, the old codicil, the ever-so-valuable eraser: "When is a saint not a saint? When I don't like him very much..."
[/quote]
 

biro

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FatherGiryus said:
How about this one: 'Never confuse a Holy Father with the Holy Spirit.'?

No saint is infallible.


biro said:
FatherGiryus said:
Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
Ah, the old codicil, the ever-so-valuable eraser: "When is a saint not a saint? When I don't like him very much..."
[/quote]

Okay. I give up. Shame we make all those saints when they're not saints, or something.
 

FatherGiryus

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Biro, saints aren't perfect.  They are 'being perfected' and are much further along than we generally are, but that does not make them 'perfect.'  They are humans who lived as we do and had their own shares of defeats as we all do.

As you progress in your catechism, you'll understand this.  We cannot idealize anyone.  Only God is perfect: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


biro said:
FatherGiryus said:
How about this one: 'Never confuse a Holy Father with the Holy Spirit.'?

No saint is infallible.


biro said:
FatherGiryus said:
Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
Ah, the old codicil, the ever-so-valuable eraser: "When is a saint not a saint? When I don't like him very much..."
Okay. I give up. Shame we make all those saints when they're not saints, or something.
[/quote]
 

Ortho_cat

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I knwo enough about Orthodoxy to say that "contemplating and seeing the divine essence of God" is completely opposite/heretical to Orthodox teaching. Some may call it splitting hairs, but if I ever heard an Orthodox person teach or claim such, I would be dumbfounded.
 

biro

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So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
 

Wyatt

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biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
 

biro

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Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Oy, oy, oy.  :-[ :'(
 

Ortho_cat

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elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
Irish Hermit said:
Deacon Lance said:
Irish Hermit said:
Since the teaching that we can contemplate the divine essence is tantamount to heresy for the Orthodox how do Catholics of the Easterrn rite handle this claim in the universal Catechism?

What says the section on heaven in the new Ukrainian Catechism?  Do they follow Rome and speak of contemplating God's essence?
1 John 3:2 - Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/browse.html
You are saying that the Roman Catholic teaching that eternity is the contemplation of the divine essence in the Beatific Vision is also the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches?
It's beginning to make sense why Dragani sees Purgatory as the Final Theosis.  The theosis leads to a perfect purgation which makes it possible to enter heaven with the capacity to see and contemplate the Divine Essence.
You and most of the Orthodox that I know treat the beatific vision as though it is a movie on a screen or a lovely sunrise or something to be viewed.  I suppose it is because of the word "vision"...

I've sent several links to this thread where it is clear that the beatific vision refers to our participation in the divine life, in life everlasting...We become both the image and likeness of God and we participate in his essential nature as adopted sons and daughters...greater even than the angels.

You cannot read Aquinas on existence and essence, act and potentiality, nature and being at the level of "See John run...Run John run"  Literal and unschooled readings will simply will lead you to the kinds of stiff and inaccurate conclusions that are in evidence here in this thread.

Mary
If we participate in his nature as you claim, how does this understanding safeguard against teaching that we become God himself or become absorbed into the Godhead?
 

PJ

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Ortho_cat said:
I knwo enough about Orthodoxy to say that "contemplating and seeing the divine essence of God" is completely opposite/heretical to Orthodox teaching. Some may call it splitting hairs, but if I ever heard an Orthodox person teach or claim such, I would be dumbfounded.
Just speaking for myself, I don't call it splitting hairs.
 

biro

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Ortho_cat said:
elijahmaria said:
Irish Hermit said:
Irish Hermit said:
Deacon Lance said:
Irish Hermit said:
Since the teaching that we can contemplate the divine essence is tantamount to heresy for the Orthodox how do Catholics of the Easterrn rite handle this claim in the universal Catechism?

What says the section on heaven in the new Ukrainian Catechism?  Do they follow Rome and speak of contemplating God's essence?
1 John 3:2 - Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor 13:12 - For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/browse.html
You are saying that the Roman Catholic teaching that eternity is the contemplation of the divine essence in the Beatific Vision is also the teaching of the Eastern Catholic Churches?
It's beginning to make sense why Dragani sees Purgatory as the Final Theosis.  The theosis leads to a perfect purgation which makes it possible to enter heaven with the capacity to see and contemplate the Divine Essence.
You and most of the Orthodox that I know treat the beatific vision as though it is a movie on a screen or a lovely sunrise or something to be viewed.  I suppose it is because of the word "vision"...

I've sent several links to this thread where it is clear that the beatific vision refers to our participation in the divine life, in life everlasting...We become both the image and likeness of God and we participate in his essential nature as adopted sons and daughters...greater even than the angels.

You cannot read Aquinas on existence and essence, act and potentiality, nature and being at the level of "See John run...Run John run"  Literal and unschooled readings will simply will lead you to the kinds of stiff and inaccurate conclusions that are in evidence here in this thread.

Mary
If we participate in his nature as you claim, how does this understanding safeguard against teaching that we become God himself or become absorbed into the Godhead?
When you take part in a concert, does that mean you become a member of the band?
 

Ortho_cat

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Peter J said:
Ortho_cat said:
I knwo enough about Orthodoxy to say that "contemplating and seeing the divine essence of God" is completely opposite/heretical to Orthodox teaching. Some may call it splitting hairs, but if I ever heard an Orthodox person teach or claim such, I would be dumbfounded.
Just speaking for myself, I don't call it splitting hairs.
ok thanks :)
 
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