Is theosis possible for those in communion with Rome?

Irish Hermit

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Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
 

Ortho_cat

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Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."

 

PJ

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Ortho_cat said:
Peter J said:
Ortho_cat said:
I knwo enough about Orthodoxy to say that "contemplating and seeing the divine essence of God" is completely opposite/heretical to Orthodox teaching. Some may call it splitting hairs, but if I ever heard an Orthodox person teach or claim such, I would be dumbfounded.
Just speaking for myself, I don't call it splitting hairs.
ok thanks :)
No need for thanks.

Speaking of splitting hairs, I don't understand the distinction between saying "enjoying the Divine Essence" and "participating in the Divine Essence". I guess I might call that "splitting hairs".

Irish Hermit said:
The dogmatic teaching of Rome is clear - your people in heaven contemplate and enjoy the Divine Essence and Mary says they participate in it.
 

Cavaradossi

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I don't understand how people think we can see or experience an essence without actually becoming an object within the general group of things which have the essence in common. Would anybody be so absurd to presume that because we have seen the operations of cows or swine that we can understand and experience what being a cow or a pig is like?
 

elijahmaria

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FatherGiryus said:
Mary, my sense is that we Orthodox see the Magisterium of Rome as the 'lynch pin' of Roman Catholic teachings.  There is a single point of reference, a single authority, for all teachings.

This has given the RCC the ability to conduct major changes in theology and practice in a very brief period of time, such as the Novo Ordo, which the Orthodox Church simply could never do even if a majority of the bishops resolved to do just that.  Our diversification of authority, through the notion of common Apostolic succession to all bishops, prevents such changes.

For this reason, we tend to look at RCC tradition as a dictate of the Magisterium.  All saints, all writings, all teachings come through this single entity, whereas Orthodox teachings come from a consensus perspective: we don't have a single interpretive office.

Now, there may be particulars in how that single office conducts business, and I imagine that given the size and history of the Vatican makes even small changes rather difficult, but they are certainly easier to accomplish than getting a room full of Russians and Greeks to sit down and agree to anything! 
  :police:
Father,

I do understand what you are saying and appreciate the impact that vision would have on those outside of the Church.  

But I must add this to what you have said.  The very fact that the Novus Ordo and many many of the changes that are comprised today, by the normative Roman rite, actually were implemented on the orders of various bishop's delegates in committee and not by the papal office nor even the documents from a general council, ought to make it plain as day that there is a fearsome amount of power in the office of bishop in the Catholic Church.

The truth is that there is no one single locus of magisterial teaching.  There is indeed one single locus for collecting the documents and teachings of the ages, coming from councils and synodal meetings and curial texts so that it becomes that much more efficient to devise a catechism or a code of canons...but to think that the contents of those tomes come from one single point on some triangle of a hierarchy is simply a delusion.

But the magisterial charge was given to the bishops and that is where the locus of power in the Church remains to this day.  The source of the petrine authority may indeed be divine, but the successful daily and pedestrian exercise of that authority is absolutely dependent upon the good will of Catholic bishops all over the world.

Short of an act of God there is nothing that can break the power of a bishop.

In that spirit, I believe that the cracking open of the sexual scandal in the Church is such and act of divine providence.  For all of the ensuing distress, I believe there will be great good emerge from it.  God help those who have been accused falsely however.  Lord have mercy.

Without that understanding then it is impossible to grasp the glory of the Catholic Church.  It is also impossible to really understand and forgive those who bear the magisterial ugliness that too often resides within.

There's more but that's enough for the moment.

M.
 

elijahmaria

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FatherGiryus said:
And so we have the problem: it seems like the priority within the RCC is the magisterium, which can both pronounce and exempt dogmas, enforcing them here but permit their renunciation elsewhere.  So, a RCC priest may serve in a Latin Rite parish for many years and utter the filioque as fact, but then be reassigned to an Byz-Rite Catholic parish and skip over that dogma thus rejecting it.
This is where a huge portion of the problem lies.  There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.

The magisterial charge is the charge to go and make disciples.  In order to do that the Apostles and those who came after were given the Spirit led power and authority to discern and teach the truths of revelation.

I find it difficult to believe that Orthodoxy does not claim such a charge for itself.

HOW that magisterial charge is executed and whether or not there's room for discussion on points of doctrine/truth and their expression is what we are really talking about here.

Dogma is a manner of defining that which is already recognized as truth.  It is not some super-Truth or hyper-Truth that trumps all other truths.  The truth of revelation is the truth.

The Catholic Church says that the petrine ministry, the power and authority of the office, is of divine origin.  Protestants and Orthodox say that is a load of crap.

But that idea certainly can be drawn from a reading of scripture.  

I'd certainly like to see the basis in Scripture from which one can assert without fear of contradiction that the conciliar path is the ONLY path...

M.
 

elijahmaria

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FatherGiryus said:
So, what you are saying is that in order to be fair about addressing something, one must first believe it to be true?

elijahmaria said:
<snip>You are quick to say that you don't believe we are one, holy, catholic or apostolic, so why would you express her teaching with anything approximating a principled approach? 
<snip>
My comments to Father Ambrose come from his periodic assertions that the Catholic Church is out to destroy Orthodoxy and therefore must be attacked with vigor and it's so-called lies and duplicity exposed to Orthodox believers.  Father Ambrose does an excellent job of doing just that...very often at the expense of the truth. 

If that is what you are asking me about...sure...I think that one can easily bear false witness if one is so inclined, and justify it as being for the greater good.

I say only God has that power and authority to use evil to do good.
 

elijahmaria

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biro said:
Let's remember, only Irish Hermit knows what Roman and Eastern Catholics actually teach and believe, and never mind if the actual experiences of those people should differ.  ::)
Or that words should have meaning beyond the literal meaning or the contemporary meaning...or whatever meaning Father Ambrose needs to suit his purpose.
 

elijahmaria

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Irish Hermit said:
biro said:
Let's remember, only Irish Hermit knows what Roman and Eastern Catholics actually teach and believe, and never mind if the actual experiences of those people should differ.  ::)
biro said:
Let's remember, only Irish Hermit knows what Roman and Eastern Catholics actually teach and believe, and never mind if the actual experiences of those people should differ.  ::)
The teaching of the Catholic belief has been defined by the Pope.  See message 292.  I do at least afford him the courtesy of believing he is knowledgeable about his own belief system.   And I am not going to fudge it.  I know Roman Catholic belief somewhat thanks to passing through their primary, secondary and tertiary institutions.
Often, knowing a thing makes it all the more easy to distort it.  

That's how individuals most often do the worst damage to the ones they know best...'

It's almost axiomatic.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Peter J said:
Speaking of splitting hairs, I don't understand the distinction between saying "enjoying the Divine Essence" and "participating in the Divine Essence". I guess I might call that "splitting hairs".
 

Wyatt

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Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
 

Irish Hermit

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elijahmaria said:
FatherGiryus said:
So, what you are saying is that in order to be fair about addressing something, one must first believe it to be true?

elijahmaria said:
<snip>You are quick to say that you don't believe we are one, holy, catholic or apostolic, so why would you express her teaching with anything approximating a principled approach?
<snip>

My comments to Father Ambrose come from his periodic assertions that the Catholic Church is out to destroy Orthodoxy
Yes, I believe that.

See message 109 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41126.msg675922.html#msg675922

and therefore must be attacked with vigor
I do not believe I have said that.  So far the attacks are coming from Rome, via the Eastern Catholic Churches, the Croatian Franciscans, etc.


and it's so-called lies and duplicity exposed to Orthodox believers.
I do not believe I have said that either, although I agree with it.

 Father Ambrose does an excellent job of doing just that...very often at the expense of the truth.
That is not true.  But I know a certain Cartholic lady of whom it is true... who falsely accuses the Orthodox of sexual liberalism, of approving abortion,  of lying by suppressing our supposed earlier belief in the Immaculate Conception.

If that is what you are asking me about...sure...I think that one can easily bear false witness if one is so inclined,
Congratulations.  You have demonstrated the truth of your words.


 

Irish Hermit

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Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
Everything that Jesus Christ is, is present in the Holy Mysteries.
 

Wyatt

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Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
Everything that Jesus Christ is, is present in the Holy Mysteries.
So...essence and energies or just energies, Father?
 

Irish Hermit

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Wyatt said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
Everything that Jesus Christ is, is present in the Holy Mysteries.
So...essence and energies or just energies, Father?
E~v~e~r~y~t~h~i~n~g    :laugh:
 

Ortho_cat

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I believe that us receiving Christ in the eucharist can be likened to Mary receiving Christ in her womb...she received the fullness of God in her womb, and we receive him similarly in the eucharist. That does not mean that we participate in God's nature or essence however.
 

Cavaradossi

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Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
To know God's essence is basically equivalent to saying that we will come to comprehend what it is to be uncreated, infinite and uncircumscribed. It would imply some sort of pantheism.
 

Wyatt

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Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
Everything that Jesus Christ is, is present in the Holy Mysteries.
So...essence and energies or just energies, Father?
E~v~e~r~y~t~h~i~n~g    :laugh:
So then our communion with God in the Eucharist is more complete than our communion with God in heaven?
 

witega

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Wyatt said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
Ortho_cat said:
Irish Hermit said:
Wyatt said:
biro said:
So when you 'go to Heaven'  ??? and 'enter the Presence of God,' what is it? A test pattern?  :p
Apparently you won't ever get to fully experience God, not even in heaven, since there is a part of God known as His "essence" that is forever hidden from us.
Saint Basil the Great, answering the objection that Christians are idiots because they worship a God who cannot be known in His essence...

http://www.voskrese.info/spl/basil234.html
this part sums it up for me:

"But we say that we know our God from His operations,
But do not undertake to approach near to His essence.
His operations come down to us,
But His essence remains beyond our reach."
That makes sense when speaking of our experience on Earth, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that we will never know God's essence even in heaven. Do the Eastern Orthodox believe God is fully present in the Holy Eucharist, or just His "energies"?
Everything that Jesus Christ is, is present in the Holy Mysteries.
So...essence and energies or just energies, Father?
In context of this thread to date, this question appears to be trying to imply some sort of contradiction between the Orthodox insistence that we cannot know God in His essence and the Orthodox belief that Christ Himself is present in the Eucharist? If I've misunderstood where you are going with that I apologize, but there is no contradiction. I can 'receive' something without 'understanding' it--as RCs should understand as well as we do since we both practice infant baptism. Or to Cavaradossi's point, I know my wife, and interact with her regularly on multiple levels. But that doesn't mean I understand her 'in her essence' (a claim that would make her laugh and laugh and laugh if I was silly enough to make it).
 
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