Is theosis possible for those in communion with Rome?

FatherGiryus

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Er, no, he's been making pretty clear points.

Denying the existence of the magisterium in RC teaching is bizarre, simply because there isn't an office with a desk called 'the magisterium.'  It clearly exists, just as we say here in the US that there is an 'Obama Administration' even though no such thing as that 'exists' as a separate office.

Such a contention is clearly dodgy.  Perhaps a 'red herring' to stray off the earlier point?  ;)


J Michael said:
Fr. Ambrose's fingers typing on the keyboard  ;D ;D!

FatherGiryus said:
What is the sound of one hair splitting?    :D

J Michael said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
 There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium.  Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?
 

FatherGiryus

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So, Mary, why was it so important to talk about this to begin with since you brought it up?

elijahmaria said:
FatherGiryus said:
But, there are plenty of RCC sources that state there is a magisterium: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

I'm not inventing this.
I gave you a thumbnail sketch of what it was and what it was NOT...

So I am not sure how to respond to this comment which indicates, apparently, that you think I've said that the magisterial charge, and the teaching of those with the power and authority to interpret the truths of revelation...don't exist.

All I can say to you is that I never said what it appears to me that you are saying I said by your question.

How confusing... ;)
 

FatherGiryus

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This post contains several problematic assertions that the argument over 'magisterium' derailed:

First, would you agree that RC bishops are governed by canon law?

Second, would you agree that the Pope regulates the expression of RC doctrine and its teaching?

Third, would you not agree that the Pope has 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' over all bishop and laity in the RCC?

You might want to rephrase your post.


elijahmaria said:
FatherGiryus said:
Mary, my sense is that we Orthodox see the Magisterium of Rome as the 'lynch pin' of Roman Catholic teachings.  There is a single point of reference, a single authority, for all teachings.

This has given the RCC the ability to conduct major changes in theology and practice in a very brief period of time, such as the Novo Ordo, which the Orthodox Church simply could never do even if a majority of the bishops resolved to do just that.  Our diversification of authority, through the notion of common Apostolic succession to all bishops, prevents such changes.

For this reason, we tend to look at RCC tradition as a dictate of the Magisterium.  All saints, all writings, all teachings come through this single entity, whereas Orthodox teachings come from a consensus perspective: we don't have a single interpretive office.

Now, there may be particulars in how that single office conducts business, and I imagine that given the size and history of the Vatican makes even small changes rather difficult, but they are certainly easier to accomplish than getting a room full of Russians and Greeks to sit down and agree to anything! 
  :police:
Father,

I do understand what you are saying and appreciate the impact that vision would have on those outside of the Church.  

But I must add this to what you have said.  The very fact that the Novus Ordo and many many of the changes that are comprised today, by the normative Roman rite, actually were implemented on the orders of various bishop's delegates in committee and not by the papal office nor even the documents from a general council, ought to make it plain as day that there is a fearsome amount of power in the office of bishop in the Catholic Church.

The truth is that there is no one single locus of magisterial teaching.  There is indeed one single locus for collecting the documents and teachings of the ages, coming from councils and synodal meetings and curial texts so that it becomes that much more efficient to devise a catechism or a code of canons...but to think that the contents of those tomes come from one single point on some triangle of a hierarchy is simply a delusion.

But the magisterial charge was given to the bishops and that is where the locus of power in the Church remains to this day.  The source of the petrine authority may indeed be divine, but the successful daily and pedestrian exercise of that authority is absolutely dependent upon the good will of Catholic bishops all over the world.

Short of an act of God there is nothing that can break the power of a bishop.

In that spirit, I believe that the cracking open of the sexual scandal in the Church is such and act of divine providence.  For all of the ensuing distress, I believe there will be great good emerge from it.  God help those who have been accused falsely however.  Lord have mercy.

Without that understanding then it is impossible to grasp the glory of the Catholic Church.  It is also impossible to really understand and forgive those who bear the magisterial ugliness that too often resides within.

There's more but that's enough for the moment.

M.
 

J Michael

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Er, yes.

He's taking a sentence completely out of context and making of it a non-truth.  It certainly gives the impression of hair-splitting and pot-stirring.  And I think he knows better.  So, he really should put his hair in the pot, heat, stir, and serve.  What you'll get is a bowl full of nonsense.  See Mary's comment above.

No one ever denied the existence of the Magisterium.  It's just that it doesn't have a physical address and all that goes along with that.  C'mon, now!

FatherGiryus said:
Er, no, he's been making pretty clear points.

Denying the existence of the magisterium in RC teaching is bizarre, simply because there isn't an office with a desk called 'the magisterium.'  It clearly exists, just as we say here in the US that there is an 'Obama Administration' even though no such thing as that 'exists' as a separate office.

Such a contention is clearly dodgy.  Perhaps a 'red herring' to stray off the earlier point?  ;)


J Michael said:
Fr. Ambrose's fingers typing on the keyboard  ;D ;D!

FatherGiryus said:
What is the sound of one hair splitting?    :D

J Michael said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium.  Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?
 

Ortho_cat

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another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven, but most Orthodox believe that theosis continues forever.
 

J Michael

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Ortho_cat said:
another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven, but most Orthodox believe that theosis continues forever.
They do?  Where'd you get that idea?  As I said before, most RC's (and probably not a few Orthodox) have never even heard the term, let alone know whether it is complete or continues forever.
 

Ortho_cat

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J Michael said:
Ortho_cat said:
another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven, but most Orthodox believe that theosis continues forever.
They do?  Where'd you get that idea?  As I said before, most RC's (and probably not a few Orthodox) have never even heard the term, let alone know whether it is complete or continues forever.
of the RC's who hold to some understanding of theosis, I meant.
 

FatherGiryus

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Why is that important?

J Michael said:
Er, yes.

He's taking a sentence completely out of context and making of it a non-truth.  It certainly gives the impression of hair-splitting and pot-stirring.  And I think he knows better.  So, he really should put his hair in the pot, heat, stir, and serve.  What you'll get is a bowl full of nonsense.  See Mary's comment above.

No one ever denied the existence of the Magisterium.  It's just that it doesn't have a physical address and all that goes along with that.  C'mon, now!

FatherGiryus said:
Er, no, he's been making pretty clear points.

Denying the existence of the magisterium in RC teaching is bizarre, simply because there isn't an office with a desk called 'the magisterium.'  It clearly exists, just as we say here in the US that there is an 'Obama Administration' even though no such thing as that 'exists' as a separate office.

Such a contention is clearly dodgy.  Perhaps a 'red herring' to stray off the earlier point?  ;)


J Michael said:
Fr. Ambrose's fingers typing on the keyboard  ;D ;D!

FatherGiryus said:
What is the sound of one hair splitting?    :D

J Michael said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium.  Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?
 

J Michael

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Ortho_cat said:
J Michael said:
Ortho_cat said:
another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven, but most Orthodox believe that theosis continues forever.
They do?  Where'd you get that idea?  As I said before, most RC's (and probably not a few Orthodox) have never even heard the term, let alone know whether it is complete or continues forever.
of the RC's who hold to some understanding of theosis, I meant.
That'd be a *far* cry from "most RC's", now, wouldn't it?  Not to mention a bunch of Orthodox, too.

Seems to me that the merry-go-round is gathering speed  ::) ;D ::).
 

J Michael

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What is the "that" that you're referring to?  That Fr. A. would take something out of context and spin it?  Or that there is, in fact, a Magisterium that exists beyond the confines of a single physical space, contrary to the impression he and one or two others would like to give?

FatherGiryus said:
Why is that important?

J Michael said:
Er, yes.

He's taking a sentence completely out of context and making of it a non-truth.  It certainly gives the impression of hair-splitting and pot-stirring.  And I think he knows better.  So, he really should put his hair in the pot, heat, stir, and serve.  What you'll get is a bowl full of nonsense.  See Mary's comment above.

No one ever denied the existence of the Magisterium.  It's just that it doesn't have a physical address and all that goes along with that.  C'mon, now!

FatherGiryus said:
Er, no, he's been making pretty clear points.

Denying the existence of the magisterium in RC teaching is bizarre, simply because there isn't an office with a desk called 'the magisterium.'  It clearly exists, just as we say here in the US that there is an 'Obama Administration' even though no such thing as that 'exists' as a separate office.

Such a contention is clearly dodgy.  Perhaps a 'red herring' to stray off the earlier point?  ;)


J Michael said:
Fr. Ambrose's fingers typing on the keyboard  ;D ;D!

FatherGiryus said:
What is the sound of one hair splitting?    :D

J Michael said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium.  Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?
 

PJ

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I think we should all take a breath and give elijahmaria a chance to explain what she means by

elijahmaria said:
 There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
 

Ortho_cat

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J Michael said:
Ortho_cat said:
J Michael said:
Ortho_cat said:
another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven, but most Orthodox believe that theosis continues forever.
They do?  Where'd you get that idea?  As I said before, most RC's (and probably not a few Orthodox) have never even heard the term, let alone know whether it is complete or continues forever.
of the RC's who hold to some understanding of theosis, I meant.
That'd be a *far* cry from "most RC's", now, wouldn't it?  Not to mention a bunch of Orthodox, too.

Seems to me that the merry-go-round is gathering speed  ::) ;D ::).
of course, i'm implying that those i have included are familiar with the concept/understanding of such...
 

elijahmaria

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FatherGiryus said:
This post contains several problematic assertions that the argument over 'magisterium' derailed:

First, would you agree that RC bishops are governed by canon law?

Second, would you agree that the Pope regulates the expression of RC doctrine and its teaching?

Third, would you not agree that the Pope has 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' over all bishop and laity in the RCC?

You might want to rephrase your post.
You might want to take a better, closer and more detailed and accurate look at Catholic reality, and a more nuanced look at her teachings.

And no.  The pope does not "regulate" the "expression" of RC doctrine and its teaching.  The papacy is NOT a regulatory office.

And no I do not want to rephrase my note to you concerning the magisterial charge, the bishops, the papacy and revealed truth...
 

elijahmaria

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Ortho_cat said:
another difference in opinion is that most RC's believe theosis is complete once one reaches heaven
There are over a billion Catholics worldwide...I think you are over-reaching here... ;)

There is a formal teaching that says we continue to grow in grace and wisdom, knowledge and understanding by sharing in the divine life throughout everlasting life. 

So...you can start your head count on how many have read the memo any time you like... ;)
 

elijahmaria

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Pope Benedict on the Petrine Ministry:

"The Catholic Church understands the Petrine ministry as a gift of the Lord to His Church. This ministry should not be interpreted in the perspective of power, but within an ecclesiology of communion, as a service to unity in truth and charity. The Bishop of the Church of Rome, which presides in charity ... is understood to be the 'Servus Servorum Dei' (Servant of the Servants of God). ... It is a question of seeking together, inspired by the model of the first millennium, the forms in which the ministry of the Bishop of Rome may accomplish a service of love recognised by one and all".

http://storico.radiovaticana.org/en1/storico/2009-11/338524_pope_on_understanding_the_petrine_ministry.html
 

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FatherGiryus said:
Ah, well, you know that the Church recognizes St. Augustine as a martyr, not as a theologian.  Sainthood does not make everything a saint did or said perfect...

biro said:
[quote author="xariskai"]There are far too many things taught by the Roman Catholic Magisterium as dogma that there is no scrap of whatsoever in the entire first Christian millennium. The notion that the papacy in the form amateur Catholic apologists argue for goes back to the first centuries of Christianity is an anachronistic myth according to all major contemporary church historians.
Somebody better tell St. Pope Martin and the other Roman Popes who are still commemorated in the Orthodox Church.
[/quote]

St. Augustine is a confessor, not a martyr.
 

FatherGiryus

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Yes, the Pope regulates RC teachings.  He is infallible when he chooses to speak ex cathedra, correct?  Therefore, he has the ultimate veto-power over RC doctrine.

He is at the head of the magisterium, and has 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' over all RCs.  To have this claim, but then say he does not have regulatory power is a failure either of logic or one's choice in understanding the term 'regulate.'  He regulates in the sense that he has supreme authority over all the RCC.

Mary, let me ask you this as a matter of clarification: can a RC deny the accuracy and truthfulness of a proclamation of the Pope and still be considered a RC in good standing?

You can't have it both ways: either the Pope has 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' or he does not.  While he may choose to not exercise it or to follow certain procedures (i.e. protocols, canon law, etc.) he does have the final say.  This is at the heart of 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction'.  Procedures and protocols are not nuances because they are subject to alteration, whereas the claims of Petrine supremacy are ontological: 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' gives the Pope the ability to amend these processes, since they are established under his authority.


elijahmaria said:
FatherGiryus said:
This post contains several problematic assertions that the argument over 'magisterium' derailed:

First, would you agree that RC bishops are governed by canon law?

Second, would you agree that the Pope regulates the expression of RC doctrine and its teaching?

Third, would you not agree that the Pope has 'ordinary and immediate jurisdiction' over all bishop and laity in the RCC?

You might want to rephrase your post.
You might want to take a better, closer and more detailed and accurate look at Catholic reality, and a more nuanced look at her teachings.

And no.  The pope does not "regulate" the "expression" of RC doctrine and its teaching.   The papacy is NOT a regulatory office.

And no I do not want to rephrase my note to you concerning the magisterial charge, the bishops, the papacy and revealed truth...
 

FatherGiryus

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I'm still trying to figure out what all the controversy is over the existence of the magisterium?  It is pretty clear that it exists as an expression of papal administration.

J Michael said:
What is the "that" that you're referring to?  That Fr. A. would take something out of context and spin it?  Or that there is, in fact, a Magisterium that exists beyond the confines of a single physical space, contrary to the impression he and one or two others would like to give?

FatherGiryus said:
Why is that important?

J Michael said:
Er, yes.

He's taking a sentence completely out of context and making of it a non-truth.  It certainly gives the impression of hair-splitting and pot-stirring.  And I think he knows better.  So, he really should put his hair in the pot, heat, stir, and serve.  What you'll get is a bowl full of nonsense.  See Mary's comment above.

No one ever denied the existence of the Magisterium.  It's just that it doesn't have a physical address and all that goes along with that.  C'mon, now!

FatherGiryus said:
Er, no, he's been making pretty clear points.

Denying the existence of the magisterium in RC teaching is bizarre, simply because there isn't an office with a desk called 'the magisterium.'  It clearly exists, just as we say here in the US that there is an 'Obama Administration' even though no such thing as that 'exists' as a separate office.

Such a contention is clearly dodgy.  Perhaps a 'red herring' to stray off the earlier point?  ;)


J Michael said:
Fr. Ambrose's fingers typing on the keyboard  ;D ;D!

FatherGiryus said:
What is the sound of one hair splitting?    :D

J Michael said:
Irish Hermit said:
elijahmaria said:
There is no "magisterium" as in an office or organization in the Catholic Church.
The Code of Canon Law certainly speaks of the Magisterium.  Canon Law speaks of its acts and it requires submission and obedience to its teachings and decisions.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/LX.HTM
Did anyone say there was *not* a Magisterium?
 

FatherGiryus

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A beautiful statement, and something Orthodox Church agrees with in terms of the equality of all bishops, not just the Bishop of Rome.

elijahmaria said:
Pope Benedict on the Petrine Ministry:

"The Catholic Church understands the Petrine ministry as a gift of the Lord to His Church. This ministry should not be interpreted in the perspective of power, but within an ecclesiology of communion, as a service to unity in truth and charity. The Bishop of the Church of Rome, which presides in charity ... is understood to be the 'Servus Servorum Dei' (Servant of the Servants of God). ... It is a question of seeking together, inspired by the model of the first millennium, the forms in which the ministry of the Bishop of Rome may accomplish a service of love recognised by one and all".

http://storico.radiovaticana.org/en1/storico/2009-11/338524_pope_on_understanding_the_petrine_ministry.html
 
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