• A blessed Nativity / Theophany season to all! For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Is there a "Feeneyite Workaround?"

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
Something that's confused me lately. St. Gregory Dialogist is said to have prayed the Roman Emperor Trajan out of Hell. Thomas Aquinas reasoned that this must mean that Trajan was brought back to life long enough for Gregory to baptize him.

So, assuming this is true, why is the debate about the fates of unbaptized babies (and others, whoever they are, who are not capable of being baptized but would otherwise be saved) even a thing? If you absolutely have to take a Feeney-like stance on baptism, why not just say that (40 days after their death, maybe) God miraculously translates their bodies to some other planet or something, resurrects them temporarily, and has a Saint like Gregory standing by to baptize them? Then they die again and God puts their bodies back where they were. Seems like a plausible enough solution, to me.
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,971
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Everyone's situation is different.  The thief on the cross was saved so you can't just say baptism is the only means to salvation.  I don't think an all powerful god would hold back salvation on a technically. Plus judging from the text. Salvation can be more difficult depending on aptitude and various conditions related to individuality. So for normal life expectancy its best to follow the sacraments after baptism and the most important is repentance and the Eucharist. Both will be needed for the majority of baptized anyway.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
Tzimis said:
Everyone's situation is different.  The thief on the cross was saved so you can't just say baptism is the only means to salvation.  I don't think an all powerful god would hold back salvation on a technically. Plus judging from the text. Salvation can be more difficult depending on aptitude and various conditions related to individuality. So for normal life expectancy its best to follow the sacraments after baptism and the most important is repentance and the Eucharist. Both will be needed for the majority of baptized anyway.
Oh, yes. I totally agree that the normative thing everybody should do is get baptized. I'm more talking about a dead baby whose parents didn't baptize them, someone who died without hearing the Gospel, a dead Orthodox Catechumen, etc.

Some seem to be very confident in saying these are in Hell and I can understand the reasoning behind it even as it bothers me. But I question whether even the rigorist position has to be as hopeless as it sounds.
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,971
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Everyone's situation is different.  The thief on the cross was saved so you can't just say baptism is the only means to salvation.  I don't think an all powerful god would hold back salvation on a technically. Plus judging from the text. Salvation can be more difficult depending on aptitude and various conditions related to individuality. So for normal life expectancy its best to follow the sacraments after baptism and the most important is repentance and the Eucharist. Both will be needed for the majority of baptized anyway.
Oh, yes. I totally agree that the normative thing everybody should do is get baptized. I'm more talking about a dead baby whose parents didn't baptize them, someone who died without hearing the Gospel, a dead Orthodox Catechumen, etc.

Some seem to be very confident in saying these are in Hell and I can understand the reasoning behind it even as it bothers me. But I question whether even the rigorist position has to be as hopeless as it sounds.
Well i won't pretend to be god on that issue because I probably don't know everything involved with determining that. All I know is all children are innocent of personal sin.
 

Xavier

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
1,189
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
32
Website
marianapostolate.com
Yes, and beside that it is commonly taught that no one knows for certain what happens in the hour of death; Mother Church offers up hundreds of thousands of Masses every day where She specifically prays for dying souls, and also teaches the laity to do so in their private devotions - see for e.g. the Chaplet of the Dying and the Holy Souls which the Lord God Himself taught St. Gertrude the Great. And it is not credible that so many prayers will not have any effect, when Our Lord in fact has promised everything to prayer in the Gospel, when the prayer is focused on accomplishing His will, and giving glory to Him. And it is His will that no one should be lost, but that all come to repentance. That not one should perish, but all may come to know the Truth and be saved, as the Apostle and the Lord Himself declare. Moreover, the salvation of one single soul gives very great glory to God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOuZr2BfSSU

CCC 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/848.htm

An example of a holy Priest who was praying most fervently for his mother to come to Christ. At first, it seemed sadly as if she had not. But after speaking to St. John Marie Vianney, happily, it was revealed there was still hope, and a letter on the prophesied date confirmed it: ""God has struck a terrible blow to my heart. My poor mother is dead ... and I remain in incertitude! However we have so much prayed that we must hope that something has passed between her soul and God during these last moments that we cannot know about. ..." We can easily imagine the pain of Father Hermann in learning of the death of his mother. He had so much prayed and so much had prayers said for her conversion, and she came to appear before the tribunal of God without having received holy Baptism! ...

" I also have a mother," would he write one day, "I have left her to follow Jesus Christ, she no longer calls me her 'good son'. Already her hair is silvered, already her brow is furrowed, and I am afraid to see her die. Oh! no I would not like to see her die before loving Jesus Christ, and already for many years I await for my mother that which Monica awaited for Augustine..." God seemed to have despised all his prayers and rejected his loving and legitimate desires. His faith and his love were put through a harsh trial. Nevertheless, if his sorrow was deep, his hope in the infinite goodness of God would not allow itself to be struck down...

I dared to ask of my Jesus how it was that He, who was goodness itself, had been able to resist the prayers of Father Hermann, and not grant the conversion of his mother ...

My Jesus then enlightened me with a ray of His divine light and had me understand or rather to see in Him that which I want to try to relate.

At the moment where the mother of Father Hermann was on the point of rendering her last breath; at the moment that she seemed deprived of awareness, almost without life; Mary, our good Mother, presented Herself before Her Divine Son, and prostrate at His feet, She said to Him: "Pardon and mercy, o my Son! for this soul who is going to perish. Yet another instant and she will be lost, lost for eternity. I beseech you, do for the mother of my servant Hermann, that which you would like to be done for your own, if She was in her place and if you were in his. The soul of his mother is his most precious good; he has consecrated her to me a thousand times; he has consecrated her to the tenderness and solicitude of my heart. Could I suffer her to perish? No, no, this soul is mine; I will it, I claim it as an inheritance, as the price of your blood and of my sufferings at the foot of your Cross ... Hardly had the sacred suppliant ceased speaking, when a strong, powerful grace, came forth from the source of all graces, from the adorable Heart of our Jesus, and came to enlighten the soul of the poor dying Jewess; instantly triumphing over her stubbornness and resistances.

This soul immediately turned herself with loving confidence towards Him whose mercy had persued her as far as the arms of death and said to Him: "O Jesus, God of the Christians, God whom my son adores, I believe, I hope in Thee, have pity on me."

In this cry, heard by God alone and which came from the intimate depths of the heart of the dying woman, were enclosed the sincere sorrow for her obstination and for her sins, the desire of baptism, the express will to receive it and to live according to the rules and precepts of our holy religion, if she had been able to return to life ... This leap of faith and hope in Jesus was the last sentiment of that soul; it was made at the moment when she brought towards the throne of the divine mercy. Breaking away the weak bonds which held her to her mortal casing, she fell at the feet of Him who had been her Saviour before being her Judge." http://papastronsay.blogspot.com/2011/10/text-of-letter-prophesied-to-father.html
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
8
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Volnutt said:
Something that's confused me lately. St. Gregory Dialogist is said to have prayed the Roman Emperor Trajan out of Hell. Thomas Aquinas reasoned that this must mean that Trajan was brought back to life long enough for Gregory to baptize him.

So, assuming this is true, why is the debate about the fates of unbaptized babies (and others, whoever they are, who are not capable of being baptized but would otherwise be saved) even a thing? If you absolutely have to take a Feeney-like stance on baptism, why not just say that (40 days after their death, maybe) God miraculously translates their bodies to some other planet or something, resurrects them temporarily, and has a Saint like Gregory standing by to baptize them? Then they die again and God puts their bodies back where they were. Seems like a plausible enough solution, to me.
God being omnipotent could of course do this.  And indeed something similiar appears to have happened in Romania: https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2009/11/unbelievable-yet-true-miracle-of-saint.html

If that incident happened, and was not an imposter, then it would imply either resurrection for a specific purpose or space/time travel, which in turn corresponds to the bilocation reported in the case of other saints like St. John Maximovitch.
 
Top