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Islamic brotherhood asks Egyptian military to protect Coptic Christmas...

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Islamic brotherhood asks Egyptian military to protect Coptic Christmas celebration

December 29, 2011
by Catholic World News

Leaders of the Islamic Brotherhood have urged Egypt’s military government to offer special protection to Coptic Christian churches as they celebrate Christmas. (Copts, following the Orthodox calendar, celebrate Christmas on January 7.) The Muslim group also offered to set up its own patrols around Christian churches to ensure a peaceful observance.
 
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Sounds like the sources are not sure who they are referring to? Nonetheless, if an Islamic group will help to protect Copts, then glory to God. Lord, have mercy on those who express love of neighbor.
 

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"Lord have mercy."  The first good action I've heard from the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhod.
 

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Basil 320 said:
"Lord have mercy."  The first good action I've heard from the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhod.

You realize they run some of the best Hospitals and charities in Egypt right and for the poor in Egypt have become a life-line?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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I do not trust these people as far as I can throw them, though individuals may be sincere. God protects us, not any Ikhwani. Still, glory be to God, and may they stay on to protect every other day of the church calendar, too...
 
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From the source, I do not know if it is the Moslem Brotherhood or the "Islamic" (?) Brotherhood Are these 2 different groups or a confusion of the Moslem Brotherhood? I beleive the report is accurate & there is a group that will provide sincere protection but clarification seems needed.
 

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It is the Muslim Brotherhood...the same Muslim Brotherhood that at other times has sanctioned the destruction of churches and the killing of Christians. Hence they are not to be trusted, even if they DO provide "sincere protection"...just as in the days of the Caliphs, we are at the mercy of their whims. Today they are trying to prove to the world that an MB-led Egypt is a good thing, but once the world's attention goes away from the "Arab Spring" countries...Lord have mercy. Already so much is happening while people just sit there, talking about how great it is that there is now democracy...bleh. Muslims cannot be trusted with democracy.
 

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dzheremi said:
It is the Muslim Brotherhood...the same Muslim Brotherhood that at other times has sanctioned the destruction of churches and the killing of Christians. Hence they are not to be trusted, even if they DO provide "sincere protection"...just as in the days of the Caliphs, we are at the mercy of their whims. Today they are trying to prove to the world that an MB-led Egypt is a good thing, but once the world's attention goes away from the "Arab Spring" countries...Lord have mercy. Already so much is happening while people just sit there, talking about how great it is that there is now democracy...bleh. Muslims cannot be trusted with democracy.
I agree completely with your analysis (in fact, NO ONE seems to be trustworthy of democracy, we Christians have an equally bad track record at home :() , however you are not being optimistically Christian enough to accept an olive branch when you see one.  We can either fight genocidal wars until someone is eliminated from a scorched earth, or we can come to grips with our differences and find a mutually amicable solution, just as we have with our Protestant and Communist enemies of the past.  It is the same situation as the US/NATO war in Afghanistan.  Folks are here in the US are very upset at the idea of negotiating with the Taliban, but newsflash, isn't that how wars end? Don't wars end at the bargaining table? Only genocides don't end with negotiations.  So we have then these two options, to negotiate mutual peace or continue with mutually assured destruction.  

I agree that we can't realistically trust the Muslim Brotherhood with our interests as Christians, but considering we are a native minority in that country and region as a whole, shouldn't we play better realpolitik chess here and take a good move when it opens? We can sort out our beef later, lets negotiate at least a transitional peace to work on.  Besides, the NUMBER one complaint against Muslims I read on this forum is that folks claim Muslims do not speak out enough against and denounce radicalism, isn't this a step then in the right direction?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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Don't spit on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting, Habte. Enough with the "mutually amicable solution" business -- that's not what the MB and the majority of Muslims in Egypt want (at least if their voting in recent election says anything). No one would like to live and let live more than the Copts. The problem is entirely on the other side.
 

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dzheremi said:
Don't spit on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting, Habte. Enough with the "mutually amicable solution" business -- that's not what the MB and the majority of Muslims in Egypt want (at least if their voting in recent election says anything). No one would like to live and let live more than the Copts. The problem is entirely on the other side.
I didn't say that is necesarily what they or we want, I am saying that is the only solution we should work towards, unless you want to rally the Crusade.  No problem is entirely one-sided and you know it, we Christians have as much baggage and drama as anyone else in the world, and so we should as Jesus told us and Peter Tosh affirmed "If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones."
Again, I am saying we need to build on this opportunity, not necessarily because the Muslim Brotherhood is saintly or has the best of intentions, but rather because this is a circumstance of some of the best options we've had in a long time, and we should milk it while the opportunity lasts.  If we dismiss this brief window, we only have ourselves to blame when the Brotherhood increases its radicalism.  Radicalism of any religion or politics tends to grow in a vacuum of isolation and lack of communication, if we want the Muslim Brotherhood or any Egyptian party or regime to respect our Christian interests and security, we need to increase our communication, and that means accepting any and every olive branch opportunity, thorns and all  :-\

I know our Coptic brothers and sisters would like nothing more than to live and let  live, and yet also from my experience there is a lot of underlying and understandable tension and hostility there as well.  We need to work that out of our own hearts, extract our own beams so to speak, because we can only adjust and control our own reactions. We can't control the Muslims, but we can control the way we react to provocation.  If we react as Christ reacts, with patience and love, then we shall overcome in the end as we always have and always will, but if we get caught up in judgment and fear we will only get what we give.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

 

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Alright, let me make it more explicit to you: Problems in general are not one-sided. I am not going to sit here and say that no individual Copt is EVER at fault in any instance. Copts are people too, not perfect saints (if they were, why would they let the likes of me be anywhere near them?). However, THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM of Islamic violence and oppression in Egypt is not the fault of the Copts.

And the rest of your post is just nonsense. Sorry, I am not a Rasta and I don't take my philosophy from musicians. We do not live in "glass houses" -- the faith of the Copts is built on ROCK, and you know it. I am pretty well sick and tired of this "but the Christians ____" crap. We have done nothing to deserve ill-treatment and any window we take advantage of now may have no connection to future events (you'll note, for instance, how Coptic prayers were once held in Tahrir square during the revolution, and yet the violence was soon increased against the Copts in Minya, at Maspero, etc). All I'm saying is that if the best we can hope for from Egypt is sporadic recognition of our rights connected to MB PR campaigns, then there really isn't any deeper communication to be had, and that fact certainly isn't our fault.

We have never succeeded by anything but prayer and fasting. Remember the miracle at Moqattam, not this Muslim PR stunt.
 

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dzheremi said:
We have never succeeded by anything but prayer and fasting. Remember the miracle at Moqattam, not this Muslim PR stunt.
Agreed but even through fasting and prayer, Christ is not going to simply make the Muslims in Egypt evaporate and disappear for the sake of the Copts (it would surely have happened by now), so that being said, even if we Christians in Egypt have abusive neighbors, we can either do what we have to do to make peace, or move, and I for one am not interesting in seeing the See of Saint Mark relocate from Her rightful home in Alexandria anytime soon, so that leaves us with the first option, negotiations supported by fasting and prayer. I am being pragmatic here and trying to work with what options are available.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 
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dzheremi said:
Alright, let me make it more explicit to you: Problems in general are not one-sided. I am not going to sit here and say that no individual Copt is EVER at fault in any instance. Copts are people too, not perfect saints (if they were, why would they let the likes of me be anywhere near them?). However, THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM of Islamic violence and oppression in Egypt is not the fault of the Copts.

And the rest of your post is just nonsense. Sorry, I am not a Rasta and I don't take my philosophy from musicians. We do not live in "glass houses" -- the faith of the Copts is built on ROCK, and you know it. I am pretty well sick and tired of this "but the Christians ____" crap. We have done nothing to deserve ill-treatment and any window we take advantage of now may have no connection to future events (you'll note, for instance, how Coptic prayers were once held in Tahrir square during the revolution, and yet the violence was soon increased against the Copts in Minya, at Maspero, etc). All I'm saying is that if the best we can hope for from Egypt is sporadic recognition of our rights connected to MB PR campaigns, then there really isn't any deeper communication to be had, and that fact certainly isn't our fault.

We have never succeeded by anything but prayer and fasting. Remember the miracle at Moqattam, not this Muslim PR stunt.
So exactly what are you suggesting the Copts do here?

MB: "We are going to offer protection so you guys can have a Merry Christmas and not get killed."

CO: "We don't trust you!" *Spits in face of MB, then punches them out*

Seriously, what do you want the Coptic Orthodox Church to do? They are a powerless minority. What action do you suggest they take?
 

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Handmaiden, did I not make it clear in my first post that I praise God for this action and actually hope it continues and becomes an everyday thing, rather than some big, media-grabbing announcement as it is now? (And as it has been in the recent past during other highly visible visits to the church by Muslims during the revolution)

I think I did, so I don't know why you'd think I would want the COC to do anything else, let alone anything like in your fantasy where we punch the MB. All I'm saying is accept it graciously, but don't rely on it, and don't expect it to be the start of some new era for the Copts in Egypt. That era has already started, but it is an era of martyrdom, not of "protection" from the MB. As I stated earlier, God protects us, not the MB.
 

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dzheremi said:
I think I did, so I don't know why you'd think I would want the COC to do anything else, let alone anything like in your fantasy where we punch the MB. All I'm saying is accept it graciously, but don't rely on it, and don't expect it to be the start of some new era for the Copts in Egypt.
Agreed.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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The issue here may be one of practicality: the Moslem Brotherhood needs votes now against other fundislamic parties.  If they can attract Coptic votes by being nice to them, then they will.  A few years ago, about the only people you could legally hate were the Copts.

Now, the rules have changed.  Watch how the IB will also act very differently towards the Israelis once they are in power and the Camp David Accords come into question.
 

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I see only a certain personality that equates opposing radical Islam as waging a genocidal war. outrageous and unreal as that comparison may seem it has been used to effectively silence any opposition towards radical Islam, and the battling of the constant misinformation that claims that Islam is a peaceful religion, with no theocratic fascistic domination as its political agenda.

Information is power! those under Islamic theocratic rule , both Muslim and Christians need their voices heard, and those governments that support those forces who play the PR game of masquerading as angels of peace, while doing their systematic eradication and genocide , need to be held accountable by the public whose tax money is being used in executing foregin political and economic policies.

it is at the heart of the battle of misinformation that these groups run to claim such expositions of atrocities and political autocratic aspirations will only aggravate those who are in power to continue and up their violence. so let us out of our incapacity to bring change right now, be quite and submit to agreesion, brutality, slavery, fascism, all manner of human right violations and civil right violations. quite , do not speak for those who die under that aggression, and injustice, because  where you to speak up against fascism, slavery, Nazisim, Communism, Theocratic Fascism, oh you are going to be labled a prejudiced fear monger. No wait, there is more, the genocide card will also be played, with the fallacious logic of , how can you speak against what is inherently wrong when the number of people who are under it are so many, how can you hope to stop the pervalence of injustice when the majority believes it to be right, Without resorting to Genocide which we all agree is not the way  to go, so please be silent and submit to injustice, stop Whining they got you good since they are the majority, your little voice ain't going to make a difference, lose hope of your right ever being respected, take what they give you, be glad that they let you eat and live, stop demanding for more. these are the voices that those who have fought fascism and Nazism, Communism , and all other authentic domination have faced and overcome, and are overcoming. Those who want those voices to be silent quickly resort to saying but Christians have not been always good etc, but this only comes from their own limited view of the world and the diverseness of the people and their belief , what the copts and even those Muslims who love justice yet see that their rights are being violated by Islamic sharia are asking for is for the separation of state and religion, for the tolerance of all non Muslims, be it Christians, Hindus, budhists, atheists etc.. This is what it is about!

No we will not be silent. No we will not stop from informing the world what the true face of theocratic fascism is like. No we are not advocating genocide, rather we are advocating the END of systematic genocide.  No we are not advocating the dominance of our rights over others, but we are advocating the End of the dominance of others over our rights . we are advocating  the right of all citizens to live with equal citizenship rights in their own country.

People have the right to know where their money is going, what kind of regimes they are supporting, what the cost of trade they support is. how the rights of the minority some where in Egypt being violated will eventually through the domino effect will lead to the triumph of the evil that perpetrated that violence. people need to be conscious of their decisions, even the decision to speak up or remain silent for the oppressed.

IB, knows how to play the diplomatic PR game, while we are thankful to God, that our Coptic brothers are  presently benefiting out of the IB's present political needs, the very fact that the Copts needed protection from a threat of violence in their own country speaks volumes as to the nature of oppression that goes on. the very fact that IB with its record of violence against the Copts now is indirectly informing them that so long as they make no noise that it will protect them however the threat of violence still hangs over the Copts, where they to oppose anything that has to do with the IB's violation of their rights. this is a complicated scenario that the copts and many other Christian and other non Muslims are under in Islamic nations, choosing the lesser of two evils, does not make one a good angel.

the international community who values justice for all, need to wake up and use all diplomatic and economic tools to make sure that human and civil rights are respected in these countries. the war against Nazism did not end in genocide, the war against fascism did not end in genocide, rather it had effectively ENDED JENOCIDE! committed by the Nazis and fascists. this is the lesson of history we must never forget. I grow weary and sick at heart, when the demand for justice for all, is equated as a cry for Genocide. where human rights are left to the whim of the majority. No it is not Acceptable!

yes Let us talk in truth, for mutual respect of human and civil rights, I am 100% sure the copts and all the none Muslim under Islamic nations are all for that ! let us see who it is that will in reality  back out of such an opportunity to talk and come up with a mutually respectful Law. we know who, so please let us not project the autocratic tendencies of the other party over to those who hunger and thirst for equality , truth and justice.

Peace.
 

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oh for those who think these jihadist headache is the headache of the minority Copts  somewhere in North Africa... with sporadic small occurrences of few people in the west... well the rest of the world who have been dealing with militant Islam for more than a 1000 year, says wake up and smell the coffee.

democracy can be used to overthrow and kill the principles of democracy do not forget it has been done before.

anyway .. it might be worth your time to listen to this one Muslim, who cares about Justice and Equality, and Democracy!

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/the_third_jihad
 

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I shouldn't dump on the Moslem Brotherhood (Maybe it is "Islamic," I don't know for sure; I refuse to use the words "Islam," or "Muslim" because they're some more revisionist names-they were "Moslem's" when I was young and that's how I'll address them until I die.) under this topic because their official action which is the topic is to protect the Coptic Christians during their celebrations of the Nativity Feast, but, weren't they responsible for the assassination of Anwar Sadat?
 

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Basil 320 said:
I refuse to use the words "Islam," or "Muslim" because they're some more revisionist names-they were "Moslem's" when I was young and that's how I'll address them until I die.
This is odd. It is "Muslim" now because that is more faithful to the original (as Standard Arabic lacks "e" or "o"), though "Moslem" is fine too, as there are no long vowels in the word, so what kind of short vowel would go in there is somewhat variable according to dialect.
 

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Hiwot said:
I see only a certain personality that equates opposing radical Islam as waging a genocidal war. outrageous and unreal as that comparison may seem it has been used to effectively silence any opposition towards radical Islam, and the battling of the constant misinformation that claims that Islam is a peaceful religion, with no theocratic fascistic domination as its political agenda.

Information is power! those under Islamic theocratic rule , both Muslim and Christians need their voices heard, and those governments that support those forces who play the PR game of masquerading as angels of peace, while doing their systematic eradication and genocide , need to be held accountable by the public whose tax money is being used in executing foregin political and economic policies.

it is at the heart of the battle of misinformation that these groups run to claim such expositions of atrocities and political autocratic aspirations will only aggravate those who are in power to continue and up their violence. so let us out of our incapacity to bring change right now, be quite and submit to agreesion, brutality, slavery, fascism, all manner of human right violations and civil right violations. quite , do not speak for those who die under that aggression, and injustice, because  where you to speak up against fascism, slavery, Nazisim, Communism, Theocratic Fascism, oh you are going to be labled a prejudiced fear monger. No wait, there is more, the genocide card will also be played, with the fallacious logic of , how can you speak against what is inherently wrong when the number of people who are under it are so many, how can you hope to stop the pervalence of injustice when the majority believes it to be right, Without resorting to Genocide which we all agree is not the way  to go, so please be silent and submit to injustice, stop Whining they got you good since they are the majority, your little voice ain't going to make a difference, lose hope of your right ever being respected, take what they give you, be glad that they let you eat and live, stop demanding for more. these are the voices that those who have fought fascism and Nazism, Communism , and all other authentic domination have faced and overcome, and are overcoming. Those who want those voices to be silent quickly resort to saying but Christians have not been always good etc, but this only comes from their own limited view of the world and the diverseness of the people and their belief , what the copts and even those Muslims who love justice yet see that their rights are being violated by Islamic sharia are asking for is for the separation of state and religion, for the tolerance of all non Muslims, be it Christians, Hindus, budhists, atheists etc.. This is what it is about!

No we will not be silent. No we will not stop from informing the world what the true face of theocratic fascism is like. No we are not advocating genocide, rather we are advocating the END of systematic genocide.  No we are not advocating the dominance of our rights over others, but we are advocating the End of the dominance of others over our rights . we are advocating  the right of all citizens to live with equal citizenship rights in their own country.

People have the right to know where their money is going, what kind of regimes they are supporting, what the cost of trade they support is. how the rights of the minority some where in Egypt being violated will eventually through the domino effect will lead to the triumph of the evil that perpetrated that violence. people need to be conscious of their decisions, even the decision to speak up or remain silent for the oppressed.

IB, knows how to play the diplomatic PR game, while we are thankful to God, that our Coptic brothers are  presently benefiting out of the IB's present political needs, the very fact that the Copts needed protection from a threat of violence in their own country speaks volumes as to the nature of oppression that goes on. the very fact that IB with its record of violence against the Copts now is indirectly informing them that so long as they make no noise that it will protect them however the threat of violence still hangs over the Copts, where they to oppose anything that has to do with the IB's violation of their rights. this is a complicated scenario that the copts and many other Christian and other non Muslims are under in Islamic nations, choosing the lesser of two evils, does not make one a good angel.

the international community who values justice for all, need to wake up and use all diplomatic and economic tools to make sure that human and civil rights are respected in these countries. the war against Nazism did not end in genocide, the war against fascism did not end in genocide, rather it had effectively ENDED JENOCIDE! committed by the Nazis and fascists. this is the lesson of history we must never forget. I grow weary and sick at heart, when the demand for justice for all, is equated as a cry for Genocide. where human rights are left to the whim of the majority. No it is not Acceptable!

yes Let us talk in truth, for mutual respect of human and civil rights, I am 100% sure the copts and all the none Muslim under Islamic nations are all for that ! let us see who it is that will in reality  back out of such an opportunity to talk and come up with a mutually respectful Law. we know who, so please let us not project the autocratic tendencies of the other party over to those who hunger and thirst for equality , truth and justice.

Peace.
Objection. I did not 'equate opposing radical Islam with genocidal war.' There are many here who simply equate all Muslims with Islamic fundamentalists who would subjugate others under a totalitarian form of 'religious' authority. What I have been saying is that any attempt to eradicate Islam 'per se' by means of armed struggle, as implied - if not actually suggested -  by some posters, would lead to a catastrophic, genocidal war.

And yes, of course democracy can lead to the suppression of minorities and minority rights. For that reason, the some of the framers of the American Constitution demanded the inclusion of the Bill of Rights as a precondition to acceptance of the 1788 efforts. They also crafted a system intended to be slow, clumsy and often divided among its three parts in order to ensure a 'safety valve' if you will to slow down the tyranny of majoritarianism. It didn't always work as intended, but , on the whole we have been able to live relatively at peace within our borders since the war between the states ended.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Habte is right - waging a genocidal war is MAD - Mutally Assured Destruction - .
Only if you loose.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Hiwot said:
I see only a certain personality that equates opposing radical Islam as waging a genocidal war. outrageous and unreal as that comparison may seem it has been used to effectively silence any opposition towards radical Islam, and the battling of the constant misinformation that claims that Islam is a peaceful religion, with no theocratic fascistic domination as its political agenda.

Information is power! those under Islamic theocratic rule , both Muslim and Christians need their voices heard, and those governments that support those forces who play the PR game of masquerading as angels of peace, while doing their systematic eradication and genocide , need to be held accountable by the public whose tax money is being used in executing foregin political and economic policies.

it is at the heart of the battle of misinformation that these groups run to claim such expositions of atrocities and political autocratic aspirations will only aggravate those who are in power to continue and up their violence. so let us out of our incapacity to bring change right now, be quite and submit to agreesion, brutality, slavery, fascism, all manner of human right violations and civil right violations. quite , do not speak for those who die under that aggression, and injustice, because  where you to speak up against fascism, slavery, Nazisim, Communism, Theocratic Fascism, oh you are going to be labled a prejudiced fear monger. No wait, there is more, the genocide card will also be played, with the fallacious logic of , how can you speak against what is inherently wrong when the number of people who are under it are so many, how can you hope to stop the pervalence of injustice when the majority believes it to be right, Without resorting to Genocide which we all agree is not the way  to go, so please be silent and submit to injustice, stop Whining they got you good since they are the majority, your little voice ain't going to make a difference, lose hope of your right ever being respected, take what they give you, be glad that they let you eat and live, stop demanding for more. these are the voices that those who have fought fascism and Nazism, Communism , and all other authentic domination have faced and overcome, and are overcoming. Those who want those voices to be silent quickly resort to saying but Christians have not been always good etc, but this only comes from their own limited view of the world and the diverseness of the people and their belief , what the copts and even those Muslims who love justice yet see that their rights are being violated by Islamic sharia are asking for is for the separation of state and religion, for the tolerance of all non Muslims, be it Christians, Hindus, budhists, atheists etc.. This is what it is about!

No we will not be silent. No we will not stop from informing the world what the true face of theocratic fascism is like. No we are not advocating genocide, rather we are advocating the END of systematic genocide.  No we are not advocating the dominance of our rights over others, but we are advocating the End of the dominance of others over our rights . we are advocating  the right of all citizens to live with equal citizenship rights in their own country.

People have the right to know where their money is going, what kind of regimes they are supporting, what the cost of trade they support is. how the rights of the minority some where in Egypt being violated will eventually through the domino effect will lead to the triumph of the evil that perpetrated that violence. people need to be conscious of their decisions, even the decision to speak up or remain silent for the oppressed.

IB, knows how to play the diplomatic PR game, while we are thankful to God, that our Coptic brothers are  presently benefiting out of the IB's present political needs, the very fact that the Copts needed protection from a threat of violence in their own country speaks volumes as to the nature of oppression that goes on. the very fact that IB with its record of violence against the Copts now is indirectly informing them that so long as they make no noise that it will protect them however the threat of violence still hangs over the Copts, where they to oppose anything that has to do with the IB's violation of their rights. this is a complicated scenario that the copts and many other Christian and other non Muslims are under in Islamic nations, choosing the lesser of two evils, does not make one a good angel.

the international community who values justice for all, need to wake up and use all diplomatic and economic tools to make sure that human and civil rights are respected in these countries. the war against Nazism did not end in genocide, the war against fascism did not end in genocide, rather it had effectively ENDED JENOCIDE! committed by the Nazis and fascists. this is the lesson of history we must never forget. I grow weary and sick at heart, when the demand for justice for all, is equated as a cry for Genocide. where human rights are left to the whim of the majority. No it is not Acceptable!

yes Let us talk in truth, for mutual respect of human and civil rights, I am 100% sure the copts and all the none Muslim under Islamic nations are all for that ! let us see who it is that will in reality  back out of such an opportunity to talk and come up with a mutually respectful Law. we know who, so please let us not project the autocratic tendencies of the other party over to those who hunger and thirst for equality , truth and justice.

Peace.
Objection. I did not 'equate opposing radical Islam with genocidal war.' There are many here who simply equate all Muslims with Islamic fundamentalists who would subjugate others under a totalitarian form of 'religious' authority. What I have been saying is that any attempt to eradicate Islam 'per se' by means of armed struggle, as implied - if not actually suggested -  by some posters, would lead to a catastrophic, genocidal war.

And yes, of course democracy can lead to the suppression of minorities and minority rights. For that reason, the some of the framers of the American Constitution demanded the inclusion of the Bill of Rights as a precondition to acceptance of the 1788 efforts. They also crafted a system intended to be slow, clumsy and often divided among its three parts in order to ensure a 'safety valve' if you will to slow down the tyranny of majoritarianism. It didn't always work as intended, but , on the whole we have been able to live relatively at peace within our borders since the war between the states ended.
I was not referring to your general agreement on genocides which as I have said before We all agree on, the person's comment I was refering to was Habte's. Habte on the other hand has been bringing out the genocidal card consistently in response to any form of opposition of the militant Islam we are seeing, along with ‘ prejudice card ’. On this post and his previous ones regarding the opposition of Islamic rule ( regardless of what realities such as the ideology’s disregard for mutual respect and dialogue that the none Muslim in Islamic countries are facing, he has diagnosed and prescribed the solution to the problem in only his way and those who do not agree are told :if you are not saying we have to go in a genocidal war then there is no other alternative but to talk to them for mutual respect, this seems to be the tune played over and over). And I say if one steps into the kitchen and starts to throw around words like that  when they are uncalled for, one should expect a reply fit for that kind of perversion of intent. This is not to convince him or any other person but to get the other side of the story heard in plain terms. I will say my piece and will end it with this post on this thread.

  In this forum those who opposed Islam oppose it as a political ideology that seeks dominance over all non- Muslims, how to deal with the inherent ideological fascistic aggression within it that must be addressed and vehemently opposed. This however does not mean the solution offered then must be armed struggle, we know better than to run for war each time some fascistic ideology rears its nasty head. What is being opposed is the unequivocal support of the west of the so called ‘democracy’ of the emerging Islamic states, whose ideology is being sold to the western populous as a quest for genuine democracy as we know it. That has all the vanguards of democracy in place, starting from the checks and balances of government to the supremacy of just law that will protect the rights of the minority. What is being advocated by all those that oppose Islamic law is that if these countries are to get the support of the west then they should have genuine democracies that will protect the rights of the minorities under the law of the land. However without having such law in place and the enforcing mechanism in place then all we are doing is be an agent of tyranny that even as we have learnt from our history will only end blowing up on our faces. There is however certain groups within the militant Islam that one cannot negotiate with by giving in to their demands will only strengthen them for completing their fascistic mission. The sort of negotiation that is being advocated is what Chamberlain did with the Nazis, he gave them Czechoslovakia believing that they will stop there, and said we have achieved “Peace in Our Time” to his people and the rest of the world, the cost of his ‘peace’ was astronomical both in giving time for the evil of Nazism to grow to immense proportion and in failing to prepare the rest of the world for what was coming, as well as for all those millions that suffered the atrocity of Nazism . But soon Nazism started to knock every door in Europe.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement



The human right violation that goes on in Islamic countries along with the civil right violation, have to be addressed by the international community. This does not necessarily mean military war; there are other means that have helped these countries to peruse the rule of Theocratic fascism. It’s high time we take a closer look at what WE are doing in aiding them monetarily and giving political recognition when we should have been demanding that they live up to the “ democratic” principles they claim to peruse and our media tells us that they are perusing. Sacrificing the few for a sham of peace will not guaranty us peace. Islam is also interpreted as “peace” by the Islamists; only the peace they are talking about is the peace that does not include the non-Muslim.

Peace.
 

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45867719/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/  here is the new development in Egypt

and we are to expect the same principles of modern democracy to be in place or so we are told

The reversal also reflects the administration’s growing acceptance of the Brotherhood’s repeated assurances that its lawmakers want to build a modern democracy that will respect individual freedoms, free markets and international commitments, including Egypt’s treaty with Israel.
 

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Hiwot said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45867719/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/  here is the new development in Egypt

and we are to expect the same principles of modern democracy to be in place or so we are told

The reversal also reflects the administration’s growing acceptance of the Brotherhood’s repeated assurances that its lawmakers want to build a modern democracy that will respect individual freedoms, free markets and international commitments, including Egypt’s treaty with Israel.
While they sharpen their knives.....

PP
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

As usual Sister Hiwot has misconstrued or misunderstood what I said or suggested ;)

Let me explain for the benefit of clarification for others who may actually read what I write:

By genocidal war I mean a war that has no end until everybody is DEAD.  If folks oppose negotiations, such as many Americans in this war with the Taliban or Al Qaeda, or if we don't negotiate with radical Islam in Somalia or Egypt, or Iraq or any such place, if we simply decide we will continually wage an open war, the only end-game is to destroy all opposition, and that folks, is a genocidal campaign in the sense that there is no end game.  If we fail to accept the reality that ALL wars either end in negotiations or they simply go on unending then we are left with few options.

I for one, am an absolute pacifist.  That being said, war is hardly ever justified,  and so we should as Christian seek peace.  How do you end wars? Oh right, the negotiating table. You can still end from a position of strength, but negotiations and inevitable mutual tolerance and reintegration is the only way that ALL wars have ever ended, and if we ever expect to end these wars we are fighting now, then we need to accept that as both adults and Christians, otherwise we will simply keep kicking the can down the road an allowing more and more human beings, soldiers and civilians, be killed.  Sorry y'all, I refuse to have that on my conscience and so I will pull ANYONE'S and EVERYONE'S card here who speaks so hawkishly about warring against anyone, Islamic or otherwise. It sure is easy for folks [and this is not to you personally Sis Hiwot, there are lot of hawks here on OC.net) to be Internet Armchair Generals when talking about war, but lets see them talk so hawkish when we put the literal gun in their hands and say shoot.  It is easy to say WAR WAR WAR when we are sending other men and women in uniform to do all the killing in other countries far far away.  That is cognitive dissonance.  War is ugly and love  is lovely, so make love and not war.

Brotherly peace is what Christ called us here for, and we demonstrate His love in the way we let love move our  hearts and let faith guide our actions.  I am sorry but war is not love and faith, love is simply hate and fear manifested.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

 

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Habte, there is a middle ground between total annihilation and a negotiation where you must give up key points.  (Somewhere between WWI and the Third Punic War  ;).)  That is permanent destabilization.  Basically, any nation friendly to our interests would reap all the benefits of mutual trade.  Any unfriendly power could be kept down, destabilized.  Any time they get into a position of strength knock them flat.  Let's peg the price of oil to the price of grain and see what happens.  We need oil, they need food.  You can't eat sand.  Starving people are the ones willing to revolt.  As soon as someone else takes power see if they want to cut a deal.  You join us in the modern world, send us oil to keep our modern infrastructure going and we will send you the fruits on post-medieval agriculture.

Remember, war is ugly, love is lovely, but love requires mutual effort from two partners.  War has no such complications and favours the more motivated party.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
vamrat said:
Habte, there is a middle ground between total annihilation and a negotiation where you must give up key points.  (Somewhere between WWI and the Third Punic War  ;).)  That is permanent destabilization.  Basically, any nation friendly to our interests would reap all the benefits of mutual trade.  Any unfriendly power could be kept down, destabilized.  Any time they get into a position of strength knock them flat.  Let's peg the price of oil to the price of grain and see what happens.  We need oil, they need food.  You can't eat sand.  Starving people are the ones willing to revolt.  As soon as someone else takes power see if they want to cut a deal.  You join us in the modern world, send us oil to keep our modern infrastructure going and we will send you the fruits on post-medieval agriculture.

Remember, war is ugly, love is lovely, but love requires mutual effort from two partners.  War has no such complications and favours the more motivated party.
There is no middle ground once the war machine is busy dropping bombs and raining bullets.  In the heat of battle, it is exactly that, total annihilation.  That being said, if we don't seek mechanisms to stop the fighting, then the annihilation is endless.  If we can't come to terms with the reality that we need to negotiate an end to our wars we are currently fighting, then we will only continue to war, continue the annihilation, and until folks finally decide to negotiate, then it is genocide in the sense that everyone involved will be killed.  That, or we can stop the fighting.  Since we can't control them, we can only control ourselves, then we need to look within ourselves as to why we are fighting, how we are fighting, and what we are fighting, killing, and dying for..


Sorry, the Love which Christ commanded us to give even our enemies is strictly within ourselves, and again, you get what you give.  
If we sit around waiting for love while belligerently beating our own war drums at every opportunity, then what can we expect? I stand by my point, the end of all and every war is inevitably the negotiating table, for those folks both here on OC.net and around the world who feel like there will never be or that there never should be negotiations with Al-Shabab or Al Qaeda or the Taliban or the Moslem Brotherhood or Hezbollah or Hamas or Boko Haram or any such radicalized Islamic militias such attitudes are crassly misinformed.  ALL wars end at the negotiating table, but like Presidents Johnson and Nixon learned the hard way, negotiations have to be sincere, we can't pretend to negotiate from a position of aggression. How did that war with the Nazis and Fascists end? Oh right, the negotiating tables..

We can't commit drone strikes and covert assassinations and other forward military operations while at the same time pretending to want peace.  If we want peace, we have to make the concessions we Westerners never seem to be willing to make, and that is to accept some obvious facts of reality, and that is that while the tactics of radical Islam are blatantly wrong, the grievances which motivate individuals to join the war tend to be perfectly legitimate.  Those are the concessions we need to be willing to make which we seem to be unwilling to budge on.  Further, if we want to bring about social justice and positive political change in those Islamic regions which are corrupt and inept, we need to expect to give some honey with our vinegar of bombs and war.  We will never coerce or force by strictly arms political change, just as we didn't achieve that here in the US or Europe.  It is a combination of both, surely, I concede that acts of war can have their justifications (sometimes) but we as CHRISTIANS should be in a unique position to act on our faith and take a bigger risk and abandon war as a strategy, and get to the bargaining table already.  We've been fighting for what, 20-30, or perhaps 200-300, wait maybe even 2000-3000 years already? Lord Have His Mercy, sounds like its about time to squash all this.

The attitudes folks express here on OC.net when they demonize ALL of Islam is not friendly to negotiations, and it reflects intolerance which means that even with negotiations hostility will continue again.  Just because it seems we can't trust them, doesn't mean we can't trust God. Again, war is manifestations of hate and fear, but we need to manifest our Love and Faith.  

War is serious, and for those who have lived in war zones they should simply know better than to be such hawks, and for those who haven't, they should especially pray for peace. I may be spoiled enough to have not had to live in an active military war zone, but from my own limited experience with acts of violence, with shootings, I've seen enough tattoo tear drops and have had enough friends and family buried in the cemetery to understand directly how ugly even just a little bit of war on the streets can be, I wouldn't want that nightmare to spread.  God be with those going through war, and for those of us on the outside who can stop it, why don't we?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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Schultz said:
primuspilus said:
So Habte, is war ever justified?

PP
I believe he already answered that. 

That being said, war is hardly ever justified,  and so we should as Christian seek peace.
Well yeah, but I was wanting clarification on the "hardly" part. Wiggle room makes me curious :0

PP
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

primuspilus said:
So Habte, is war ever justified?

PP
When we wage war against Evil through fasting and prayer.

We should assume that picking up bombs and guns is an absolute no-no, and that way, when we do such, we will not waste time trying to exonerate, vindicate, or justify our killing other human beings with acts of violence, instead we will come to same conclusion we do with all Sins in our lives, Repentance and Confession.  If we confess in sincerity sins like arguments with our brothers and sisters, or lusting after each other, or lying or cheating or stealing, how come killing each other is somehow vindicated from the list?  Sin is sin, and we know we will always sin, so we never seek to justify our sins, rather we repent.  War should be the same, it is not a necessary evil, it is simply another evil which we as flawed humans commit, but we should consider it no different than our other sins, something we need to Repent and Confess to God from the depth of our hearts and souls.  War is pride.  War is hatred.  War is casting judgment.  War is taking innocent life as collateral damage, can we ever honestly justify these actions before our Creator who commands us to love one another at all costs?

James 4:1-5


It seems bizarre to me that we will fast and abstain from lawful foods to demonstrate and exercise our faith, and would confess as a sin if we willfully broke the fast with something as simple as a milk chocolate chip cookie, and yet we can pretend killing other human beings is perfectly acceptable in given circumstances? If we abstain from foods out of our faith in God, couldn't we abstain from taking each others' lives?



stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

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HabteSelassie said:
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
vamrat said:
Habte, there is a middle ground between total annihilation and a negotiation where you must give up key points.  (Somewhere between WWI and the Third Punic War  ;).)  That is permanent destabilization.  Basically, any nation friendly to our interests would reap all the benefits of mutual trade.  Any unfriendly power could be kept down, destabilized.  Any time they get into a position of strength knock them flat.  Let's peg the price of oil to the price of grain and see what happens.  We need oil, they need food.  You can't eat sand.  Starving people are the ones willing to revolt.  As soon as someone else takes power see if they want to cut a deal.  You join us in the modern world, send us oil to keep our modern infrastructure going and we will send you the fruits on post-medieval agriculture.

Remember, war is ugly, love is lovely, but love requires mutual effort from two partners.  War has no such complications and favours the more motivated party.
There is no middle ground once the war machine is busy dropping bombs and raining bullets.  In the heat of battle, it is exactly that, total annihilation.  That being said, if we don't seek mechanisms to stop the fighting, then the annihilation is endless.  If we can't come to terms with the reality that we need to negotiate an end to our wars we are currently fighting, then we will only continue to war, continue the annihilation, and until folks finally decide to negotiate, then it is genocide in the sense that everyone involved will be killed.  That, or we can stop the fighting.  Since we can't control them, we can only control ourselves, then we need to look within ourselves as to why we are fighting, how we are fighting, and what we are fighting, killing, and dying for..


Sorry, the Love which Christ commanded us to give even our enemies is strictly within ourselves, and again, you get what you give.  
If we sit around waiting for love while belligerently beating our own war drums at every opportunity, then what can we expect? I stand by my point, the end of all and every war is inevitably the negotiating table, for those folks both here on OC.net and around the world who feel like there will never be or that there never should be negotiations with Al-Shabab or Al Qaeda or the Taliban or the Moslem Brotherhood or Hezbollah or Hamas or Boko Haram or any such radicalized Islamic militias such attitudes are crassly misinformed.  ALL wars end at the negotiating table, but like Presidents Johnson and Nixon learned the hard way, negotiations have to be sincere, we can't pretend to negotiate from a position of aggression. How did that war with the Nazis and Fascists end? Oh right, the negotiating tables..

We can't commit drone strikes and covert assassinations and other forward military operations while at the same time pretending to want peace.  If we want peace, we have to make the concessions we Westerners never seem to be willing to make, and that is to accept some obvious facts of reality, and that is that while the tactics of radical Islam are blatantly wrong, the grievances which motivate individuals to join the war tend to be perfectly legitimate.  Those are the concessions we need to be willing to make which we seem to be unwilling to budge on.  Further, if we want to bring about social justice and positive political change in those Islamic regions which are corrupt and inept, we need to expect to give some honey with our vinegar of bombs and war.  We will never coerce or force by strictly arms political change, just as we didn't achieve that here in the US or Europe.  It is a combination of both, surely, I concede that acts of war can have their justifications (sometimes) but we as CHRISTIANS should be in a unique position to act on our faith and take a bigger risk and abandon war as a strategy, and get to the bargaining table already.  We've been fighting for what, 20-30, or perhaps 200-300, wait maybe even 2000-3000 years already? Lord Have His Mercy, sounds like its about time to squash all this.

The attitudes folks express here on OC.net when they demonize ALL of Islam is not friendly to negotiations, and it reflects intolerance which means that even with negotiations hostility will continue again.  Just because it seems we can't trust them, doesn't mean we can't trust God. Again, war is manifestations of hate and fear, but we need to manifest our Love and Faith.  

War is serious, and for those who have lived in war zones they should simply know better than to be such hawks, and for those who haven't, they should especially pray for peace. I may be spoiled enough to have not had to live in an active military war zone, but from my own limited experience with acts of violence, with shootings, I've seen enough tattoo tear drops and have had enough friends and family buried in the cemetery to understand directly how ugly even just a little bit of war on the streets can be, I wouldn't want that nightmare to spread.  God be with those going through war, and for those of us on the outside who can stop it, why don't we?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
You are ignoring some of my points.  Plenty of wars have ended away from the negotiating table.  I brought up the Third Punic War.  There never was a Fourth Punic War.  You brought up WWII.  Yes, we went to the negotiating table at the end...after he fire bombed and nuked their cities, encircled and smashed their army groups, dug them out of islands by bayonet and flamethrower, after the Soviets raped their way through Berlin.  When the Germans and Japanese went to the table they knew they were beat.  Then we went ahead and hung plenty of them after the war, or sent them to internment caps out East. 

Besides, I gave an example of how we could negotiate with them.  If you are the little guy at the negotiations, there will be no negotiations.  There will be a list of demands and the consequences you will reap if you don't accept them.  It is always best to be the big guy at the negotiations.  Only the big guy gets to be magnanimous. 
 

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vamrat said:
podkarpatska said:
Habte is right - waging a genocidal war is MAD - Mutally Assured Destruction - .
Only if you loose.
Just to clarify, MAD was a central defense strategy of both the NATO alliance and the Soviet Union during the cold war. The whole point of Mutual Assured Destruction required at least three  central assumptions.

The first was that each side possessed the nuclear strength to destroy the other many times over. The second was that a first strike could never compromise the entirety of the other side's arsenal. The third was critical. It required each to assume that the leadership of the enemy wanted to 'smell the roses', play with their children and live to see another day. Hence, it would be " 'MAD'ness " to provoke a nuclear war.(i.e. insanity to use nuclear weaponry as a strategic option.)

State use of terror as a weapon ( as well as state-complicit organizations like Al-Queda or the Taliban) does change the equation. The use of terror as a tactic can never compromise the strategic retaliatory power of technologically advanced adversary. Hence it's spectacular use (i.e. September 11th) will usually require a measured, strong and focused strategic response. When you are dealing with extemists whose ideology or faith governs their reason, one can not assume a 'sane' response from the leadership. Just ask Neville Chamberlain or Marshall Petain! Yet a massive military response without long term focus, commitment and clear goals will go for naught.

(Just a side point: As to the Germans and Japanese 'going' to the table at the end of WW2 history tells us that the Allies insisted upon unconditional surrender with a dictation of terms - so there was no negotiation.)

Seriously, I don't think that the west has developed a long term strategic response to religious and nationalistic extremism in the 21st century. World wide instant television of events and wars really precludes any protracted, bloody war as was witnessed in the past. One could not imagine the public in the west tolerating three days of CNN and foxnews coverage of a 21st century Gettysburg, the Ardennes or Normandy....

So, I suppose at this time we can only pray that 'realpolitik' influences the MB in Egypt and that the more 'moderate' and Westernized of their element prevails.



 

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podkarpatska said:
vamrat said:
podkarpatska said:
Habte is right - waging a genocidal war is MAD - Mutally Assured Destruction - .
Only if you loose.
Just to clarify, MAD was a central defense strategy of both the NATO alliance and the Soviet Union during the cold war. The whole point of Mutual Assured Destruction required at least three  central assumptions.

The first was that each side possessed the nuclear strength to destroy the other many times over. The second was that a first strike could never compromise the entirety of the other side's arsenal. The third was critical. It required each to assume that the leadership of the enemy wanted to 'smell the roses', play with their children and live to see another day. Hence, it would be " 'MAD'ness " to provoke a nuclear war.(i.e. insanity to use nuclear weaponry as a strategic option.)

State use of terror as a weapon ( as well as state-complicit organizations like Al-Queda or the Taliban) does change the equation. The use of terror as a tactic can never compromise the strategic retaliatory power of technologically advanced adversary. Hence it's spectacular use (i.e. September 11th) will usually require a measured, strong and focused strategic response. When you are dealing with extemists whose ideology or faith governs their reason, one can not assume a 'sane' response from the leadership. Just ask Neville Chamberlain or Marshall Petain! Yet a massive military response without long term focus, commitment and clear goals will go for naught.

(Just a side point: As to the Germans and Japanese 'going' to the table at the end of WW2 history tells us that the Allies insisted upon unconditional surrender with a dictation of terms - so there was no negotiation.)

Seriously, I don't think that the west has developed a long term strategic response to religious and nationalistic extremism in the 21st century. World wide instant television of events and wars really precludes any protracted, bloody war as was witnessed in the past. One could not imagine the public in the west tolerating three days of CNN and foxnews coverage of a 21st century Gettysburg, the Ardennes or Normandy....

So, I suppose at this time we can only pray that 'realpolitik' influences the MB in Egypt and that the more 'moderate' and Westernized of their element prevails.
Brilliant!!! Thank you!
 

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The problem with telling the truth is that it can appear awfully insensitive...

One of the reasons why many Egyptian Christians converted to Islam in the 8th century is, the Muslim rulers treated them “better” than the Byzantine Christian rulers. Back then, the Copts didn't know and understand the evil and cunning nature of Islam, just like the Ethiopian king who gave refugee to the followers Mohammad during the so-called, 1st Hijira. The Muslims deceived the Christian king by reading selected stories about Mariam and Isa from the Quran.

There is no peaceful coexistence for minorities in a Muslim majority country, there is no justice, love, self-control in Islam as its chief-architect, devil,  the deceiver, the thief,  the liar, and the murderer is not confident enough of his own power

It must be obvious by now that Islam was specifically designed by the devil to damn the descendants of Ishmael. The devil has used the hatred that the descendants of Ishmael have for the descendants of Isaac, to damn the descendants of Ishmael.

You know, the Muslim gangs like the MB send their soldiers to kill Christians while congregating in their churches to prove their evil thoughts that the Christian God is not capable of protecting them – that's why they are now placing themselves as protectors (gods) of the Christians. Isn't this blasphemous? I am sure, we will be reading the headlines from Sunday, “Christians in Egypt had the most peaceful Christmas celebration in years under the protection of Muslim Brotherhood”

Egyptian Christians should either find new ways of challenging the Ishmaelites, or they should abandon Hagar land immediately. Once left alone, the Ishmaelities will start killing each other. They do it now in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkey, Sudan, Libya, and soon Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morrocco. These are almost 100% Muslim countries!

@ Habte, aka, Habib Rasta,

If you were blessed for the frequency of your heartbeat while engaging yourself in Islamic apologetics and obfuscations, you would certainly be in heaven by now.  You seem to pop-up whenever Aladin rubs the magic lump – you don't even stop appeasing the Muslim murderers during this holy season for Christians!? unwarranted allegation removed "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." ~Winston Churchill. personal attack removed



Post modified by moderator to remove personal attacks and allegations  -PtA

 
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