• A blessed Nativity / Theophany season to all! For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

isxodnik, will the physical world be destroyed?

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
isxodnik said:
This material world that you want to sanctify will burn in the Second Coming of Christ.
isxodnik said:
Oh. How can I talk to you if you hold unorthodox views?
isxodnik said:
Volnutt teaches that "the world will can be refined and restored".
To repeat myself from that thread- what's unorthodox about "matter is important and God isn't going to just toss it aside?" Do you think the New Heavens and New Earth will just be a floating white void? What's the point of keeping relics of the Saints, then?



Also, lol at the idea that I "teach" anything.
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,970
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Volnutt said:
isxodnik said:
This material world that you want to sanctify will burn in the Second Coming of Christ.
isxodnik said:
Oh. How can I talk to you if you hold unorthodox views?
isxodnik said:
Volnutt teaches that "the world will can be refined and restored".
To repeat myself from that thread- what's unorthodox about "matter is important and God isn't going to just toss it aside?" Do you think the New Heavens and New Earth will just be a floating white void? What's the point of keeping relics of the Saints, then?



Also, lol at the idea that I "teach" anything.
Orthodoxy is about the restoration of the world.  In other words the earth will become heaven.  I couldn't imagine anything different.
 

Eamonomae

Julian the Apostate
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Just putting this for reference:

5th Ecumenical Council:

Anathemas Against Origen:

2.

"If anyone shall say that the creation (τὴυ παραγωγὴν) of all reasonable things includes only intelligences without bodies and altogether immaterial, having neither number nor name, so that there is unity between them all by identity of substance, force and energy, and by their union with and knowledge of God the Word; but that no longer desiring the sight of God, they gave themselves over to worse things, each one following his own inclinations, and that they have taken bodies more or less subtle, and have received names, for among the heavenly Powers there is a difference of names as there is also a difference of bodies; and thence some became and are called Cherubims, others Seraphims, and Principalities, and Powers, and Dominations, and Thrones, and Angels, and as many other heavenly orders as there may be: let him be anathema."

10.

"If anyone shall say that after the resurrection the body of the Lord was ethereal, having the form of a sphere, and that such shall be the bodies of all after the resurrection; and that after the Lord himself shall have rejected his true body and after the others who rise shall have rejected theirs, the nature of their bodies shall be annihilated: let him be anathema."

11.

"If anyone shall say that the future judgment signifies the destruction of the body and that the end of the story will be immaterial, and that thereafter there will no longer be any matter, but only spirit: let him be anathema."

14.

"If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema.'


Source:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,970
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Its funny your sourcing the opinion of councils.  Thats for another discussion.  ;)
 

Eamonomae

Julian the Apostate
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Tzimis said:
Its funny your sourcing the opinion of councils.  Thats for another discussion.  ;)
If you mean the fact that I'm sourcing an Ecumenical Council, what's funny about that?

If it's my source that's funny, I grab New Advent because I'm used to it.

Here are others if you want, which ultimately come from the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, edited by Schaff.

Fordham University:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/const2.asp
CCEL:
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,970
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Eamonomae said:
Tzimis said:
Its funny your sourcing the opinion of councils.  Thats for another discussion.  ;)
If you mean the fact that I'm sourcing an Ecumenical Council, what's funny about that?

If it's my source that's funny, I grab New Advent because I'm used to it.

Here are others if you want, which ultimately come from the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, edited by Schaff.

Fordham University:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/const2.asp
CCEL:
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html
I can walk to fordam university. 
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,970
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
isxodnik said:
Mat. 24:35
2Pet. 3:10
Nonsense.  Your reading the bible wrong. Christ will come down and renew the earth.  Resurrect the dead. "Might be us" and establish a new kingdom.  Including us. Hopefully.  Now if you see it differently.  Stop! 
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
isxodnik said:
Mat. 24:35
Probably best read as a hypothetical extreme ("even if Heaven and Earth passed away, my words would still not pass away").

isxodnik said:
2Pet. 3:10
That which the blacksmith melts can be refined and reconstituted into a better version of itself, which is why I chose the words that I did originally. "Burned up" can also be translated as "revealed, proved" iirc.

Now, how does your view not fall foul of the Councils that Eamonomae cited? If currently existing matter will no longer exist, then how will the resurrection of the body occur (and what's the point of keeping relics of the Saints)?
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
In this context, that's a distinction without a difference. God doesn't teletransportation paradox people's bodies and then make new ones from scratch, he pieces them back together and repairs them like they were supposed to be all along, otherwise what's the point of relics?

Likewise, why bless the waters at Theophany if those waters will be annihilated only to be replaced by identical, newly created waters- just minus imperfections?
 

Tzimis

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
4,970
Reaction score
38
Points
48
Location
wilderness
Volnutt said:
In this context, that's a distinction without a difference. God doesn't teletransportation paradox people's bodies and then make new ones from scratch, he pieces them back together and repairs them like they were supposed to be all along, otherwise what's the point of relics?

Likewise, why bless the waters at Theophany if those waters will be annihilated only to be replaced by identical, newly created waters- just minus imperfections?
Im sure he is messing with you. I don't think he's that dumb to realize i good thing in front of him.
 

isxodnik

High Elder
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Messages
794
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
RF
How many times need consecrate the temple?
 

Eamonomae

Julian the Apostate
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
1,242
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Why did you change your profile picture to a Snake?

What you should change your picture to is a propaganda poster that appropriated Christian imagery.

 

Justin Kolodziej

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
1,552
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
I keep seeing the Headless Horseman first and then realizing he's actually Quasimodo  ;D
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
34
isxodnik said:
How many times need consecrate the temple?
Well, Romans 11:29 says that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, so re-consecrations would seem to more be about keeping proper order after a major disruption. But that's a far cry from saying that God de-sacralizes His own sanctified creations, isn't it?
 

isxodnik

High Elder
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Messages
794
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
RF
Man is God's creation?
Can it be sanctified?
Then he can fall into sin?
The sanctified will recede from him?

Now tell, what events will precede the end of the world?

If we follow your logic that the sanctification of the material world is persistent until the end of time, then the whole world, every drop must already be sanctified, for two thousand years. Meanwhile, every year we perform The great blessing of the water. The consecration of the Holy water is strictly prohibited. For example, for the sacrament of Baptism can not use the water of the Holy Epiphany, or prayer.
 
Top