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ITT: Calvinism

Agabus

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RobS said:
I would really like someone to tackle Calvinism if they have the time...
The first thing to note is that there isn't a single Calvinism, but rather Calvinisms, and which stream you're interacting with will get different results. The Dutch Reformed tradition (vis-a-vis the Hiedelberg Confession and catechism) and the Knox Presbyterian stream (preserved in the classic Westminster Confession and catechism) are different flavors but are more or less in agreement with each other and are substantially close to what we'll call Calvin Classic. It's really an entire system of theology that is much wider than the famous TULIP, incorporating covenantal and sacramental theology. Very few people read the Institutes these days.

The other schools I can think of off the top of my head include but aren't limited to Kuyperian Calvinism (A Dutch stream), the New Calvinists (guys with gelled hair and skinny jeans), Reformed Baptist Calvinism (Calvinism: Now without all that sacramental talk!), the Federal Vision ("We're trying to take sacramental theology seriously!") and hyper-Calvinism (which is what most people here seem to go to first when discussing Calvinism).

EDIT: Beebert — Please join in if you want, but don't just dump a bunch of random quotes culled from the internet with the usual commentary about how evil everyone you're quoting is.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Agabus said:
EDIT: Beebert — Please join in if you want, but don't just dump a bunch of random quotes culled from the internet with the usual commentary about how evil everyone you're quoting is.
Hey!  Selam! 
 

Luke

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Fr. Trenham studied under Calvinists and switched to Orthodoxy.
 

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Some of the best apologetic I've ever found for Calvinism (not so much theological, but for the movement, what impelled it and what it became) are Marilynne Robinson's essays "Puritans and Prigs," "Marguerite de Navarre" (Pts. 1 and 2), and "Psalm Eight." These can be found in various literary magazines and in the collection The Death of Adam. Related is another book of her essays, which follows traditional American Calvinism, viz., Congregationalism, and the very important role it played in American politics and education: When I Was a Child I Read Books. All these are writing of great depth and fluidness, similar in style to say an Alexander Schmemann, and a real joy for the mature reader whether or not one is able to accept the conclusions.

Her basic contention is that Calvinism has always lent itself to caricature and distortion, both by its enemies and some of its own adherents, but that in practical fact it was nothing less than a spiritual midwife to the birth of the European and American middle class, providing a way for free enterprise and democracy to be conducted with dignity and piety and ensuring their use and success around the world. Such ideas as classical liberalism and modern liberal education are popularly perceived as the kind of thing Calvinism would be opposite of, yet a tracing of history shows they owe more to Calvinism than to anything else. The fact we find this so unbelievable, when in truth it is so demonstrable when we read about the historical personalities and movements involved, is just another testament to the deep unease that Calvinism has always aroused in those who can't embrace it, can't comprehend it, and therefore react to it with caricature and emotion. At root is really the mystery of how enterprising humankind is yet the tool of almighty God, and this is not a mystery neatly solved by Calvinism's religious competitors, as much as they benefit by contrast from caricaturizing the terms in which the very young Jean Cauvin (sic) boldy cast the problem.
 

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Hey, Agabus. In a different thread you said that

Agabus said:
I've used a similar line before, but the YRR crowd doesn't really care about the Reformed faith outside of affirming solas (usually in narrower ways than the Reformers) and rewriting TULIP to be both more and less palatable at the same time.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you meant by the parts I bolded :)
 

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Volnutt said:
Hey, Agabus. In a different thread you said that

Agabus said:
I've used a similar line before, but the YRR crowd doesn't really care about the Reformed faith outside of affirming solas (usually in narrower ways than the Reformers) and rewriting TULIP to be both more and less palatable at the same time.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you meant by the parts I bolded :)
I see this. I'll get to you a little later when I've got time to expand.
 

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Agabus said:
RobS said:
I would really like someone to tackle Calvinism if they have the time...
...hyper-Calvinism (which is what most people here seem to go to first when discussing Calvinism).
Most Calvinists regard 'Hyper-Calvinism' as a heresy. Nonetheless, I have met some humble Christians characterised by Christ's love among them. That they know and love our Lord I do not doubt.
 

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Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Hey, Agabus. In a different thread you said that

Agabus said:
I've used a similar line before, but the YRR crowd doesn't really care about the Reformed faith outside of affirming solas (usually in narrower ways than the Reformers) and rewriting TULIP to be both more and less palatable at the same time.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you meant by the parts I bolded :)
I see this. I'll get to you a little later when I've got time to expand.
Cool.
 

Agabus

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Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Hey, Agabus. In a different thread you said that

Agabus said:
I've used a similar line before, but the YRR crowd doesn't really care about the Reformed faith outside of affirming solas (usually in narrower ways than the Reformers) and rewriting TULIP to be both more and less palatable at the same time.
I'd be curious to hear more about what you meant by the parts I bolded :)
I see this. I'll get to you a little later when I've got time to expand.
Cool.
OK, so I had planned to curate a bunch of links to demonstrate, but I'm grabbing 10 minutes between kids' bedtimes. I'll hit the bit about the "narrower than the Reformers" now and come back to TULIP later.

Essentially, the YRR guys will often to take the Solas and extend their boundaries. For example, Sola Fide becomes Sola Sola Fide, with them making statements to the effect of someone who does not fully affirm Sola Fide cannot be saved -- in other words, not only are we saved by faith alone, but we cannot be saved if we do not believe we are saved by faith alone.

This is not the position of any serious or informed Reformed theologian, teacher or layman, but it is a tendency within the camp of the young (or young aspirant) guys who think being a Calvinist makes them some kind of theological edgelord.
 

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Ah, ok.

I wonder if they think that Sola Scriptura is also necessary for salvation. I know the Parchment and Pen guy at least got in trouble for his extreme definition of it (the Scriptures are so perspicuous that we don't really even need the Spirit to understand them, or at least that's how his critics phrased what he was saying).

Would John "God Actively and Intentionally Created Evil" Sproul count as a YRR?


YRR means "Young, Restless, and Reformed," for those who don't know.
 

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This is not the position of any serious or informed Reformed theologian, teacher or layman, but it is a tendency within the camp of the young (or young aspirant) guys who think being a Calvinist makes them some kind of theological edgelord.

Well, the dudes of P&P aren't that young and they are immersed in that kind of extremist and caricature approach of calvinism.
 

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Volnutt said:
Ah, ok.

I wonder if they think that Sola Scriptura is also necessary for salvation. I know the Parchment and Pen guy at least got in trouble for his extreme definition of it (the Scriptures are so perspicuous that we don't really even need the Spirit to understand them, or at least that's how his critics phrased what he was saying).

Would John "God Actively and Intentionally Created Evil" Sproul count as a YRR?


YRR means "Young, Restless, and Reformed," for those who don't know.
I'd say the vast majority of Reformed folks will hold to a similar position as the EO in that there are many people who, despite the falsity of their church, are on the road of salvation.  The "invisible church" doctrine helps them assert this.
 

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juliogb said:
This is not the position of any serious or informed Reformed theologian, teacher or layman, but it is a tendency within the camp of the young (or young aspirant) guys who think being a Calvinist makes them some kind of theological edgelord.

Well, the dudes of P&P aren't that young and they are immersed in that kind of extremist and caricature approach of calvinism.
P&P are outliers, but they are the Brietbart of YRR Baptists.
 

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Hinterlander said:
Volnutt said:
Ah, ok.

I wonder if they think that Sola Scriptura is also necessary for salvation. I know the Parchment and Pen guy at least got in trouble for his extreme definition of it (the Scriptures are so perspicuous that we don't really even need the Spirit to understand them, or at least that's how his critics phrased what he was saying).

Would John "God Actively and Intentionally Created Evil" Sproul count as a YRR?


YRR means "Young, Restless, and Reformed," for those who don't know.
I'd say the vast majority of Reformed folks will hold to a similar position as the EO in that there are many people who, despite the falsity of their church, are on the road of salvation.  The "invisible church" doctrine helps them assert this.
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
 

Agabus

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RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
 

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Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
As I recall, that's closer to what Calvin himself believed. Double Predestination is more of a later conclusion by Butzer and others, IIRC.
 

Volnutt

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Hinterlander said:
Volnutt said:
Ah, ok.

I wonder if they think that Sola Scriptura is also necessary for salvation. I know the Parchment and Pen guy at least got in trouble for his extreme definition of it (the Scriptures are so perspicuous that we don't really even need the Spirit to understand them, or at least that's how his critics phrased what he was saying).

Would John "God Actively and Intentionally Created Evil" Sproul count as a YRR?


YRR means "Young, Restless, and Reformed," for those who don't know.
I'd say the vast majority of Reformed folks will hold to a similar position as the EO in that there are many people who, despite the falsity of their church, are on the road of salvation.  The "invisible church" doctrine helps them assert this.
Most Reformed, sure. The YRR are a vocal minority.
 

Volnutt

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Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?
 

Agabus

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Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
As I recall, that's closer to what Calvin himself believed. Double Predestination is more of a later conclusion by Butzer and others, IIRC.
I think you're correct in that. The question has always been if what gets called Calvinism is actually what Calvin taught or believed.
 

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Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?
Re: Effervescent Grace — not really. I have heard anecdotes about folks who despaired nearly to death over the thought, but not as a belief point as a part of systematic theology.

The seventh point is "best-of-all-possible worlds." In essence, it means that God's sovereign control over everything is managed in such a way that the end perspective will be God's glory has been best magnified throughout all time, space and everything outside those boundaries.
 

Volnutt

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Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
As I recall, that's closer to what Calvin himself believed. Double Predestination is more of a later conclusion by Butzer and others, IIRC.
I think you're correct in that. The question has always been if what gets called Calvinism is actually what Calvin taught or believed.
Yeah really lol.

Agabus said:
Re: Effervescent Grace — not really. I have heard anecdotes about folks who despaired nearly to death over the thought, but not as a belief point as a part of systematic theology.
Ah, ok.

Agabus said:
The seventh point is "best-of-all-possible worlds." In essence, it means that God's sovereign control over everything is managed in such a way that the end perspective will be God's glory has been best magnified throughout all time, space and everything outside those boundaries.
Oh, sure. I've read about that. Also ties into to Piper rhapsodizing about how God loves Himself more than anything else in the universe and that this self-love is the greatest love in the universe because Great Chain of Being.

It always leads me to wonder how "Unconditional" the Election could really be if the ratio of saved to damned is that exactly calculated to bring God glory.
 

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Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?

Don't you mean 'evanescent grace'? There was a topic about if I recall correctly.
 

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Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
As I recall, that's closer to what Calvin himself believed. Double Predestination is more of a later conclusion by Butzer and others, IIRC.
I think you're correct in that. The question has always been if what gets called Calvinism is actually what Calvin taught or believed.
Limited Atonement also came years after Calvin had already died, wasn't it?
 

Agabus

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Nicodemusz138 said:
Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Agabus said:
RE: the TULIP rewrite. It's a little tricky, since it's a system where all the points prop each other up.

The rewrite is more of adding nuance by taking selective readings of Calvinist writers through the years. The biggest example is the "U."

Whereas some guys the YRR cut their teeth on like Piper will go ahead and do the seven-point Calvinist thing (Unconditional Election also means Double Predestination), others choose to emphasize election in direct connection to Total Depravity. Instead of saying God elects to actively save some and actively damn others, they would say that God elects to save some and the damnation of others is his passive will in that He chose not to save them but it was their depravity in and of itself that damned them, not Him. In other words, the old, "God doesn't send anyone to Hell; they send themselves."

This isn't strictly a YRR position (I first heard it in the Dutch Reformed-informed OPC), but it has a lot of traction with them.
As I recall, that's closer to what Calvin himself believed. Double Predestination is more of a later conclusion by Butzer and others, IIRC.
I think you're correct in that. The question has always been if what gets called Calvinism is actually what Calvin taught or believed.
Limited Atonement also came years after Calvin had already died, wasn't it?
The Canons of Dordt (which later morphed into the TULIP mnemonic) were adopted more than a half century later.

Of course, as in all things theological in those days, they were an answer to the Arminians, who were in turn responding to the Belgic Confession.
 

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But wouldn't Calvin agree in substance with limited atonement?
 

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Iconodule said:
But wouldn't Calvin agree in substance with limited atonement?
Yes.

Consider it the logical Protestant version of development of doctrine. It was there in germinal form all along.
 

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Agabus said:
Iconodule said:
But wouldn't Calvin agree in substance with limited atonement?
Yes.

Consider it the logical Protestant version of development of doctrine. It was there in germinal form all along.
Philip Schaff's account of protestant history (in "The Principle of Protestantism") was very Newmanesque (consciously so, I think).
 

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juliogb said:
Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?

Don't you mean 'evanescent grace'? There was a topic about if I recall correctly.
Yeah, you're right. I get the words mixed up a lot (and I'm not even ESL lol).
 

Volnutt

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Iconodule said:
Agabus said:
Iconodule said:
But wouldn't Calvin agree in substance with limited atonement?
Yes.

Consider it the logical Protestant version of development of doctrine. It was there in germinal form all along.
It would fit with a lot of Schaff's other preferences for making Protestantism more Catholic-like.

Philip Schaff's account of protestant history (in "The Principle of Protestantism") was very Newmanesque (consciously so, I think).
 

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Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?

Don't you mean 'evanescent grace'? There was a topic about if I recall correctly.
Yeah, you're right. I get the words mixed up a lot (and I'm not even ESL lol).
LOL, I even repeated it and didn't think twice about it.
 

juliogb

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Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
Have you seen a lot of "Effervescent Grace" type teachings (Calvin's suggestion that God tricks some people into thinking that they're saved when they really aren't) among the YRR? Or was that the "seventh point" of TULIP that you alluded to wrt Piper and others?

Don't you mean 'evanescent grace'? There was a topic about if I recall correctly.
Yeah, you're right. I get the words mixed up a lot (and I'm not even ESL lol).
LOL, I even repeated it and didn't think twice about it.

Yeah, I noticed, I wonder what ''effervescent grace'' would mean, maybe grace that gets diluted in water, makes sense, most calvinists baptize by aspersion.
 

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There is also an Ancient-Future type of Calvinism which is TULIP than supplemented by an emphasis on having communion every week, some form of liturgical worship, maybe some asceticsm like fasting and then referring back to the Church Fathers every so often.  It's a response to the criticism that the reformed church has no tie to the early church. 


 

juliogb

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walterturkey said:
There is also an Ancient-Future type of Calvinism which is TULIP than supplemented by an emphasis on having communion every week, some form of liturgical worship, maybe some asceticsm like fasting and then referring back to the Church Fathers every so often.  It's a response to the criticism that the reformed church has no tie to the early church.
I think that is called Federal Vision, guys like Pastor Doug Wilson and Rev. Peter Leithart subscribe to that movement.
 

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juliogb said:
walterturkey said:
There is also an Ancient-Future type of Calvinism which is TULIP than supplemented by an emphasis on having communion every week, some form of liturgical worship, maybe some asceticsm like fasting and then referring back to the Church Fathers every so often.  It's a response to the criticism that the reformed church has no tie to the early church.
I think that is called Federal Vision, guys like Pastor Doug Wilson and Rev. Peter Leithart subscribe to that movement.
That's the broadest view possible of the Federal Vision, but yes. Wilson and Leithart are among the most commonly associated names with it. Not a lot of asceticism, though.

The emphasis on communion (especially paedocommunion) is in part because of their understandings of covenant community.

One Orthodoxy guy I know who spent years as a parishioner at Ground Zero for the Federal Vision, Auburn Avenue, said part of what pushed him toward Orthodoxy was the tendency on the part of Federal Visionists to empahsize the importance of the liturgy while continually tinkering with it.
 

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juliogb said:
walterturkey said:
There is also an Ancient-Future type of Calvinism which is TULIP than supplemented by an emphasis on having communion every week, some form of liturgical worship, maybe some asceticsm like fasting and then referring back to the Church Fathers every so often.  It's a response to the criticism that the reformed church has no tie to the early church.
I think that is called Federal Vision, guys like Pastor Doug Wilson and Rev. Peter Leithart subscribe to that movement.
from my very limited experience (which boils down to two ruling elders), Ancient-future is less about the doctrine and theology and more of taking parts from Divine liturgy and making them fit into the Calvinist worship So there might some psalmody, a call and response portion similar to how the Priest prays "blessed is the kingdom..." and the congregation responds amen as opposed to "we're going to start" or "good morning".  Tim Keller did an interview on Biblical meditation that sounded like Hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer, where the Jesus Prayer is replaced by a short verse.

This Easter my pastor tried the Pascha greeting of  "christ is risen" to which the answer was awkward silence. 

on the other hand, Federal Vision attempts to address various theological issues by looking into the early church. FV is something that effects the denomination; Ancient-Future is more of a style of worship, since the church i went still didn't do paedocommunion and held on to calvin's view that we mystically enter Heaven to dine with Christ, although even that depended on which leader you asked.

It's hit or miss, but the benefit is that it sent me down the journey to Orthodoxy a few years ago.

Also Depending on who you ask Leithart is supposed to be expelled from the PCA along with the rest of Federal Visionists. Just goes to show the number of schisms in Calvinism.
 

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walterturkey said:
Also Depending on who you ask Leithart is supposed to be expelled from the PCA along with the rest of Federal Visionists. Just goes to show the number of schisms in Calvinism.
I didn't realize he was still with the PCA. I just figured at this point he would have done like Wilkins and his church and joined a more receptive confederation.
 

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Agabus said:
walterturkey said:
Also Depending on who you ask Leithart is supposed to be expelled from the PCA along with the rest of Federal Visionists. Just goes to show the number of schisms in Calvinism.
I didn't realize he was still with the PCA. I just figured at this point he would have done like Wilkins and his church and joined a more receptive confederation.
funny story: he and another fella was exonerated by the GA, which in turned caused a few ruling/teaching elders to jump ship to the opc.

one of the issues in the reformed tradition is that popular pastor celebrities are disgraced in their churches and then put in a disciplinary action only to get hired by a another reformed church to become their pastor.

perhaps this is for another thread or maybe I shouldnt really delve but how does the orthodox handle discipline? i did read about the metropolitan previous to His Beatitude metropolitan Joseph of the Antiochian church being asked to step down and him becoming a bishop for the ROCOR.

stability in leadership is something i wonder about seeing as my own pca pastor left us to lead Southern Baptist "nondenom"  church plant in Chicago, which admittedly was a smart career move since his new church is growing way faster and larger than ours ever did.

i would ask my priest but im not a catechumen and dont want to bother him with trivial questions.


 
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