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Jewish extremists burn down church in Israel

Marc1152

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Cyrillic said:
Marc1152 said:
Cyrillic said:
Marc1152 said:
"Hate and intolerance have no place in our society,” he said.
Hahaha.
Mosul ? Jerusalem ? ... Mosul? Jerusalem?  ... Mosul ?  Jerusalem ?
Jerusalem? Stockholm? Jerusalem? Stockholm?

Marc1152 said:
Fall int the hands of the Islamo Facists and you get your head cut off
Pretty low standard to set.
Actually both places will treat you fairly and have the rule of law, habeas corpus yada yada...  Arab countries, not so much.
 

rakovsky

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wgw said:
"Pricetag" attacks like this have been going on for years, with churches, mosques, and even synagogues deemed objectionable victimized by them.  Many Jews have had their property damaged in "pricetag" attacks.  However the high profile of this incident seems to be causimg the Israeli government into getting serious about a much needed crackdown.  The "price tag" terrorists tend to come from the bammed Kach political party or pro-Zionist yeshivas, as oppposed tp your typical Haredi yeshiva, which will tend to be indifferent on these matters.

Thank God something is being done about it, but the "price" required for this mich meeded intervention was high.
Hello, WGW.

As I understand it, the concept of "pricetag" is that militant Israelis attack Palestinians as the "price" for getting in their way. The perpetrators' Jewish victims would be chosen for advocating nonviolent approaches and cooperation with Palestinians, correct?

But what makes you believe that the Israeli government is now doing something, as you say, about the militants' price tag attacks? Of course, the Israelis often take measures, such as arresting and giving light penalties to attackers or standing by as they watch the attacks. The same monastery had already been severely attacked last year. Was "something done" to prevent a repeat?

The article says:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned the incident and ordered the head of Israel's Shin Bet internal security agency to "to conduct a full and speedy investigation."
Of course, having an investigation counts as "doing something". But Netanyahu has been making such statements for years, while the military has occasionally cooperated with price tags themselves.

Police said they initially arrested 16 youths, all religious Jewish seminary students from West Bank settlements, but released them shortly thereafter. Their lawyer, Itamar Ben Gvir, told Israeli Army Radio the police had no evidence against the youths and that they were under suspicion simply for looking like young settlers...
Arrests? That counts as "something" too.  But then, if there is no evidence, as a fully functioning democracy based on equal rights, suspects must certainly be released. And releasing suspects is doing something about the case too. So is something really being done, or is it just perfunctory? Contrast all this with what happens when Palestinians are perpetrators, WGW.

To give some examples of how the system works in practice, see:
"Vandal settlers, and their soldier guardians"
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/settlers-soldier-guardians

And what happens when some settlers want to go for a swim, the army is agreeable, and a village pool is nearby:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/soldiers-palestinians-settlers)

"Settlers and soldiers attack village near Nablus, injuring 5. Torched trees. Killed sheep"
https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/photos-settlers-and-soldiers-attack-village-near-nablus-injuring-5-torched-trees-killed-sheep
 

rakovsky

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Dear WGW,

Did you have a chance to read my reply to your discussion on this topic in the Politics Section?
 

rakovsky

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JoeS2 said:
We need to be very careful not to paint with a broad brush.  Ever since the '47 war and the establishment of an Israeli state there has always been a vocal but very small radical element in the Jewish state.  They have on occasions treated clergy with insults for years BUT they are small in number. the majority of Jews in Israel do tolerate and most live in harmony with other religious groups.
Hello, Joe.

I agree that we should not paint with a broad brush. But it's also true that we should have a correct understanding of the society's attitudes, and sadly the younger generations are becoming increasing intolerant. A survey by the Jerusalem Center for Jewish-Christian Relations showed that 52% of those aged 18-29 age responded that Russian Christian immigrants should not be allowed to practice Christianity.

(See: http://www.jcjcr.org/category/survey-1)
 

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Well, as an Israeli, after reading this thread I hope that I won't eat a bucket of lead for trying to post here, and while I won't take sides on the issue of Israelis being terrorists or not I will try to shed some light on the situation here, so that hopefully everyone from both sides can be a little more informed.

The suspected perpetrators are a group of youths from the settlements who were on a trip in the area. This leave me without a doubt in my mind that the perpetrators are from the movement called the "Hilltop Youth". When you hear the media talking about right-wing Zionist youth doing "price tag" attempts, this is generally who they're referring too.

So, first of all: this was not a "price tag" attempt. If it were, it would be marked with grafitti specifically identifying who they were trying to "avenge". Rather, this was a hate crime attempt. The grafitti they left is in biblical Hebrew, so I can't translate it very accurately, but the word "idols" I can definitely see there. Which gives you a rough explanation for the motive here.

Now, back to the hilltop youth. They're a semi-organized (they're not an official group, rather a bunch of "lone-wolf" style teenagers, but they are generally in contact with each other and often coordinate attacks, alibis and legal defenses with each other) who, well, basically, fell through the cracks of the system. They were generally raised in religious, ultra-nationalist families of the "religious Zionist" movement. Because this movement is very fluid with the "Modern Orthodox" movement, you can find a very large and confusing number of views there. Most of them are just ordinary folk who like shouting at Arabs on their TV screens but are completely docile and peaceful besides that. The problem are the more "hardcore" folks, the ones who live in the "extremist" settlements. Which brings us to a second thing that most Westerners don't quite understand. There are different types of settlements. The majority of them are within the Fence, so most of the people living in them don't even know that they live in a settlement. They're just ordinary folk who could not care less about politics and don't even realize that, from the international point of view, they're being categorized as "settlers". Then you have a few "extremist" settlements that are what most international folk imagine the settlers to be. They're very extreme, right-wing, ultra-nationalist people living in outposts whose status under Israeli law is not very clear, much less under international law. These are the gun-toting guys burning down olive groves that you always hear about. Let's focus on the children here, the ones who "fell through the cracks" as I said earlier. They're educated in the Yeshivas located in these outpousts. These are very problematic Yeshivas, because they don't technically teach violent doctrine, so the government can't shut them down. But they raise the children in a very hostile environment that naturally leads to it.

Most of the students of these Yeshivas usually do some petty crime against Arabs during their teenage years - throwing rocks at cars, vandalizing olive groves, or stuff like that. The problem is that, the youth laws in Israel are not very strict (slaps on the wrist mostly) and because they're Israeli citizens, they're prosecuted under Israeli civil law, not the military law that Palestinians get prosecuted under. So essentially, from a legal perspective, they're no different from drunk teenagers throwing rocks at cars or spray-painting grafitti in the middle of Tel Aviv. So they get a slap on the wrist, get released, and go back to their settlements. But because with these guys, it's not a discipline issue but a radicalization issue, this does absolutely nothing at all to stop them.

Then you have the army. Israel has mandatory army service. This is sort of the "grow-up" phase for Israelis. They go in as typical partying, alcoholic high-schoolers, get that knocked out of them in boot camp and the strict army discipline, and then get released as much more mature, productive citizens. This is why, for instance, you won't find frat boys throwing massive parties in Israeli colleges - they all got it knocked out of them in the army. But these youth, the ones we were just talking about, don't get drafted, because the army realizes just how dangerous they are. So they miss that grow-up phase that's supposed to transform them, and go into adulthold keeping the mindset of the invincible teenager. This is where they fall through the cracks - with radicalization at home, and no one there to stomp some discipline into them, they get released into the adult world essentially as undisciplined, radicalized teenagers.

So they do exactly what you'd expect them to do - mostly vandalizing mosques, burning down olive groves, and etc. For them, it's just normal teenaged "fun", with a sick, hateful twist to it. Then they get caught, but because this is, again, Israeli civil law, they can't be persecuted as terrorists, even if it was a terrorist attack. They just get the standard misdeamenor charges for graffiting a building or something like that. And here's where the big problem starts. There are a number of right-wing NGOs who provide legal help for people arrested in right-wing attacks. When these kids get arrested, they get educated extremely well by them. What to say and what not to say during interrogations, all the legal loopholes that are so prevalant in Israeli law regarding settlers and hate crimes, the different degrees of crime and how they're legally categorized by severity and by nature (hate crime, etc.). So they spend their week in jail for a petty misdemeanor, but come out with enough legal knowledge to become lawyers themselves. And then they go and share this with their friends, and soon the entire group knows how to ride the legal system extremely well. And then they share this knowledge with other groups of friends, and in this way the entire hilltop youth movement got educated.

Because of this, it's now extremely difficult to prosecute them when they're caught. When they commit the crime, they know exactly the kind of alibi to cook up to get the police off their tracks. They know exactly what to do to avoid leaving forensic evidence, and to make sure that if they are caught, the crime can only be classified as being of the most minor, petty degree possible. And when they do get caught, they know exactly what to say in their interrogations, exactly what to say in the courtrooms, how to work the legal loopholes like experts. And again, because this is Israeli civil law and not military law, they're provided with much more legal benefits than those prosecuted under military law.

This is where the big problem starts. Because the military law has been dealing with terrorists for decades, it's become very clear-cut on what constitutes a terrorist attack, and most of the Arab terrorists have zero legal education, confessing to their crimes within two seconds, making it very easy to simply capture them and then lock them up for life. The Israeli civil law, on the other hand, being very unused to dealing with these thing, still has a lot of grey areas regarding hate crimes and terrorism, which lawyers can often very easily exploit, and since the perpetrators are often extremely well-versed in police techniques and avoiding and exploiting the pitfalls of the legal system, they become extremely problematic to prosecute. That's why you almost never hear about these people getting any harsh sentences,  and why it's so easy to commit these crimes.

Now that I've explained the situation a bit, I'll address the issue at hand, of this particular Church arson. As a Christian, I find it horrific. And the majority of my family and friends agree (although they're more of the "common folk" type, so I have no idea how a problematic settler or an extreme leftist might view them). Most Israelis hate and despise these people who do things like this. The reason I wrote out all the above, is to show that it's not just an issue of Jews vs. Arabs like most people think, with the Jews getting off the hook while Arabs get killed. It's a very complex problem, both a social and legal problem, that needs to be felt with. As for why it's not being dealt with, it's, and I hate to say this, just not a very high priority for most Israelis. Your average Joe living in Tel Aviv simply does not care that much about the latest clashes in the West Bank. When the bombings and rockets are hitting Tel Aviv, that's a whole other story. But when it's a mosque in the West Bank getting spray-painted, or a Church in rural Galilee getting torched, or the army tear-gassing settlers while trying to evacuate an illegal outpost in Samaria, it just doesn't affect the average Israeli couch potato that much. We've got a lot of very pressing economic issues in the country, a lot of very controversial social issues, those are the things that your average Israeli will bring up if you try talking politics with him. If you talk to him about the West Bank and clashes there "well, at least no one got shot today" is probably the answer. Everyone's used to the back-and-forth in the West Bank and Gaza, it's routine. Things like this just aren't what people think about when they vote for their elected officials.

Again, I'm not going to take a stance on the whole "Israelis/Arabs are the real terrorists here" debate, because that will just lead to more division and strife and infighting in this thread which is the last thing that we, as a Christian forum, should have. But hopefully I've managed to give anyone reading this a glance into the smaller details here, so he can understand the situation better.
 

Luke

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^So there are some who do not go into the army?  The reason I ask is when I visited Israel in 1984, our Israeli guide told us that all have a service  time int he army.  Of course, she could have left out the details of ones the army decides it is better not to train.
 

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Gamliel said:
^So there are some who do not go into the army?  The reason I ask is when I visited Israel in 1984, our Israeli guide told us that all have a service  time int he army.  Of course, she could have left out the details of ones the army decides it is better not to train.
Yes. People with harsher criminal records don't go in (I'm not sure what the exact criteria is there), people with a psychiatric history don't got in, and Haredim and Arabs don't go in.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Marc1152 said:
Cyrillic said:
Marc1152 said:
"Hate and intolerance have no place in our society,” he said.
Hahaha.
Mosul ? Jerusalem ? ... Mosul? Jerusalem?  ... Mosul ?  Jerusalem ?

Fall int the hands of the Islamo Facists and you get your head cut off

Fall into the hands of the Israeli's and you get a court appointed lawyer (if you cant afford one of your own)

Compare and contrast
You'd get the same in Nazi Germany.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Mor Ephrem

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ergro, thanks for your very informative post. 

ergro said:
The problem is that, the youth laws in Israel are not very strict (slaps on the wrist mostly) and because they're Israeli citizens, they're prosecuted under Israeli civil law, not the military law that Palestinians get prosecuted under.
Does this apply to all non-Israeli citizens?  For instance, if I were to commit a crime as a visiting American citizen, would I be prosecuted under military law?  Or is this just for the Palestinians? 
 

Marc1152

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rakovsky said:
wgw said:
"Pricetag" attacks like this have been going on for years, with churches, mosques, and even synagogues deemed objectionable victimized by them.  Many Jews have had their property damaged in "pricetag" attacks.  However the high profile of this incident seems to be causimg the Israeli government into getting serious about a much needed crackdown.  The "price tag" terrorists tend to come from the bammed Kach political party or pro-Zionist yeshivas, as oppposed tp your typical Haredi yeshiva, which will tend to be indifferent on these matters.

Thank God something is being done about it, but the "price" required for this mich meeded intervention was high.
Hello, WGW.

As I understand it, the concept of "pricetag" is that militant Israelis attack Palestinians as the "price" for getting in their way. The perpetrators' Jewish victims would be chosen for advocating nonviolent approaches and cooperation with Palestinians, correct?

But what makes you believe that the Israeli government is now doing something, as you say, about the militants' price tag attacks? Of course, the Israelis often take measures, such as arresting and giving light penalties to attackers or standing by as they watch the attacks. The same monastery had already been severely attacked last year. Was "something done" to prevent a repeat?

The article says:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned the incident and ordered the head of Israel's Shin Bet internal security agency to "to conduct a full and speedy investigation."
Of course, having an investigation counts as "doing something". But Netanyahu has been making such statements for years, while the military has occasionally cooperated with price tags themselves.

Police said they initially arrested 16 youths, all religious Jewish seminary students from West Bank settlements, but released them shortly thereafter. Their lawyer, Itamar Ben Gvir, told Israeli Army Radio the police had no evidence against the youths and that they were under suspicion simply for looking like young settlers...
Arrests? That counts as "something" too.  But then, if there is no evidence, as a fully functioning democracy based on equal rights, suspects must certainly be released. And releasing suspects is doing something about the case too. So is something really being done, or is it just perfunctory? Contrast all this with what happens when Palestinians are perpetrators, WGW.

To give some examples of how the system works in practice, see:
"Vandal settlers, and their soldier guardians"
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/settlers-soldier-guardians

And what happens when some settlers want to go for a swim, the army is agreeable, and a village pool is nearby:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/soldiers-palestinians-settlers)

"Settlers and soldiers attack village near Nablus, injuring 5. Torched trees. Killed sheep"
https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/photos-settlers-and-soldiers-attack-village-near-nablus-injuring-5-torched-trees-killed-sheep
Like the three Israeli youths who committed the revenge ( "Price Tag") murder last year? They are on trial right now.

We never dreamed it would end in murder,' says Abu Khdeir defendant

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.659476

The bereaved father, Hussein Abu Khdeir, was present in the courtroom and shouted at the witness during his testimony.


Perhaps Hamas method of "justice" is more to your liking... It's certainly quicker:

Hamas gunmen execute six ‘Israeli spies’...
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-gunmen-execute-six-israeli-spies-on-busy-gaza-street-corner

Witnesses say masked gunmen have publicly killed six suspected collaborators with Israel at a busy Gaza City intersection.

The Hamas military wing claimed responsibility.

Witnesses said the six men were pulled out of a van Tuesday, forced to lie face down on the street and then shot dead.


Inappropriate image removed.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
Five bodies lay in a pile as a mob stomped and spit on them. A sixth body was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, “Spy! Spy!” 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
ergro, thanks for your very informative post. 

ergro said:
The problem is that, the youth laws in Israel are not very strict (slaps on the wrist mostly) and because they're Israeli citizens, they're prosecuted under Israeli civil law, not the military law that Palestinians get prosecuted under.
Does this apply to all non-Israeli citizens?  For instance, if I were to commit a crime as a visiting American citizen, would I be prosecuted under military law?  Or is this just for the Palestinians?
I'll be honest, I'm not quite sure. If your crime was committed in Area A (the places under full Palestinian civil and security control) you'd be prosecuted under Palestinian law, which I don't know enough about to comment on. In Areas C and B, Israeli citizens get prosecuted under Israeli civil law, whereas Palestinian citizens get prosecuted under the Israeli military law. As for foreign citizens, I believe (not entirely sure, so take this with a grain of salt) that it depends on the specific juridstiction it was committed in. So, for instance, if you committed the crime in a large settlement (which are for the most part policed by regular Israeli cops) you'd be arrested by the regular police, and would probably be prosecuted under civil law. If you committed the crime in a Palestinian village, which are policed by the soldiers, you'd probably be arrested by soldiers and prosecuted under military law.

That being said, it's very rare for foreigners to be prosecuted under military law, almost always they're simply deported and banned from returning to the country.I don't think in fact that I've ever heard a case of a foreigner being prosecuted under the Military Law.
 

ergro

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I should add: this is for settlements within the West Bank proper (within the fence). The areas outside of the fence but over the green line, while internationally recognized as settlements are not considered as such in Israeli and as such full Israeli civil law is applied there, for both Jews and Arabs. Another point to add is that Israeli Arabs are free to travel within the territories but get treated under civil law if they're arrested just like the Jews are, so it has less to do with ethnicity and more to do with nationality.
 

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ergro said:
Well, as an Israeli, after reading this thread I hope that I won't eat a bucket of lead for trying to post here, and while I won't take sides on the issue of Israelis being terrorists or not I will try to shed some light on the situation here, so that hopefully everyone from both sides can be a little more informed.

The suspected perpetrators are a group of youths from the settlements who were on a trip in the area. This leave me without a doubt in my mind that the perpetrators are from the movement called the "Hilltop Youth". When you hear the media talking about right-wing Zionist youth doing "price tag" attempts, this is generally who they're referring too.

So, first of all: this was not a "price tag" attempt. If it were, it would be marked with grafitti specifically identifying who they were trying to "avenge". Rather, this was a hate crime attempt. The grafitti they left is in biblical Hebrew, so I can't translate it very accurately, but the word "idols" I can definitely see there. Which gives you a rough explanation for the motive here.

Now, back to the hilltop youth. They're a semi-organized (they're not an official group, rather a bunch of "lone-wolf" style teenagers, but they are generally in contact with each other and often coordinate attacks, alibis and legal defenses with each other) who, well, basically, fell through the cracks of the system. They were generally raised in religious, ultra-nationalist families of the "religious Zionist" movement. Because this movement is very fluid with the "Modern Orthodox" movement, you can find a very large and confusing number of views there. Most of them are just ordinary folk who like shouting at Arabs on their TV screens but are completely docile and peaceful besides that. The problem are the more "hardcore" folks, the ones who live in the "extremist" settlements. Which brings us to a second thing that most Westerners don't quite understand. There are different types of settlements. The majority of them are within the Fence, so most of the people living in them don't even know that they live in a settlement. They're just ordinary folk who could not care less about politics and don't even realize that, from the international point of view, they're being categorized as "settlers". Then you have a few "extremist" settlements that are what most international folk imagine the settlers to be. They're very extreme, right-wing, ultra-nationalist people living in outposts whose status under Israeli law is not very clear, much less under international law. These are the gun-toting guys burning down olive groves that you always hear about. Let's focus on the children here, the ones who "fell through the cracks" as I said earlier. They're educated in the Yeshivas located in these outpousts. These are very problematic Yeshivas, because they don't technically teach violent doctrine, so the government can't shut them down. But they raise the children in a very hostile environment that naturally leads to it.

Most of the students of these Yeshivas usually do some petty crime against Arabs during their teenage years - throwing rocks at cars, vandalizing olive groves, or stuff like that. The problem is that, the youth laws in Israel are not very strict (slaps on the wrist mostly) and because they're Israeli citizens, they're prosecuted under Israeli civil law, not the military law that Palestinians get prosecuted under. So essentially, from a legal perspective, they're no different from drunk teenagers throwing rocks at cars or spray-painting grafitti in the middle of Tel Aviv. So they get a slap on the wrist, get released, and go back to their settlements. But because with these guys, it's not a discipline issue but a radicalization issue, this does absolutely nothing at all to stop them.

Then you have the army. Israel has mandatory army service. This is sort of the "grow-up" phase for Israelis. They go in as typical partying, alcoholic high-schoolers, get that knocked out of them in boot camp and the strict army discipline, and then get released as much more mature, productive citizens. This is why, for instance, you won't find frat boys throwing massive parties in Israeli colleges - they all got it knocked out of them in the army. But these youth, the ones we were just talking about, don't get drafted, because the army realizes just how dangerous they are. So they miss that grow-up phase that's supposed to transform them, and go into adulthold keeping the mindset of the invincible teenager. This is where they fall through the cracks - with radicalization at home, and no one there to stomp some discipline into them, they get released into the adult world essentially as undisciplined, radicalized teenagers.

So they do exactly what you'd expect them to do - mostly vandalizing mosques, burning down olive groves, and etc. For them, it's just normal teenaged "fun", with a sick, hateful twist to it. Then they get caught, but because this is, again, Israeli civil law, they can't be persecuted as terrorists, even if it was a terrorist attack. They just get the standard misdeamenor charges for graffiting a building or something like that. And here's where the big problem starts. There are a number of right-wing NGOs who provide legal help for people arrested in right-wing attacks. When these kids get arrested, they get educated extremely well by them. What to say and what not to say during interrogations, all the legal loopholes that are so prevalant in Israeli law regarding settlers and hate crimes, the different degrees of crime and how they're legally categorized by severity and by nature (hate crime, etc.). So they spend their week in jail for a petty misdemeanor, but come out with enough legal knowledge to become lawyers themselves. And then they go and share this with their friends, and soon the entire group knows how to ride the legal system extremely well. And then they share this knowledge with other groups of friends, and in this way the entire hilltop youth movement got educated.

Because of this, it's now extremely difficult to prosecute them when they're caught. When they commit the crime, they know exactly the kind of alibi to cook up to get the police off their tracks. They know exactly what to do to avoid leaving forensic evidence, and to make sure that if they are caught, the crime can only be classified as being of the most minor, petty degree possible. And when they do get caught, they know exactly what to say in their interrogations, exactly what to say in the courtrooms, how to work the legal loopholes like experts. And again, because this is Israeli civil law and not military law, they're provided with much more legal benefits than those prosecuted under military law.

This is where the big problem starts. Because the military law has been dealing with terrorists for decades, it's become very clear-cut on what constitutes a terrorist attack, and most of the Arab terrorists have zero legal education, confessing to their crimes within two seconds, making it very easy to simply capture them and then lock them up for life. The Israeli civil law, on the other hand, being very unused to dealing with these thing, still has a lot of grey areas regarding hate crimes and terrorism, which lawyers can often very easily exploit, and since the perpetrators are often extremely well-versed in police techniques and avoiding and exploiting the pitfalls of the legal system, they become extremely problematic to prosecute. That's why you almost never hear about these people getting any harsh sentences,  and why it's so easy to commit these crimes.

Now that I've explained the situation a bit, I'll address the issue at hand, of this particular Church arson. As a Christian, I find it horrific. And the majority of my family and friends agree (although they're more of the "common folk" type, so I have no idea how a problematic settler or an extreme leftist might view them). Most Israelis hate and despise these people who do things like this. The reason I wrote out all the above, is to show that it's not just an issue of Jews vs. Arabs like most people think, with the Jews getting off the hook while Arabs get killed. It's a very complex problem, both a social and legal problem, that needs to be felt with. As for why it's not being dealt with, it's, and I hate to say this, just not a very high priority for most Israelis. Your average Joe living in Tel Aviv simply does not care that much about the latest clashes in the West Bank. When the bombings and rockets are hitting Tel Aviv, that's a whole other story. But when it's a mosque in the West Bank getting spray-painted, or a Church in rural Galilee getting torched, or the army tear-gassing settlers while trying to evacuate an illegal outpost in Samaria, it just doesn't affect the average Israeli couch potato that much. We've got a lot of very pressing economic issues in the country, a lot of very controversial social issues, those are the things that your average Israeli will bring up if you try talking politics with him. If you talk to him about the West Bank and clashes there "well, at least no one got shot today" is probably the answer. Everyone's used to the back-and-forth in the West Bank and Gaza, it's routine. Things like this just aren't what people think about when they vote for their elected officials.

Again, I'm not going to take a stance on the whole "Israelis/Arabs are the real terrorists here" debate, because that will just lead to more division and strife and infighting in this thread which is the last thing that we, as a Christian forum, should have. But hopefully I've managed to give anyone reading this a glance into the smaller details here, so he can understand the situation better.
Hello, Ergro.

What you are saying about this particular incident makes sense. Young people from a settlement got radical ideas and attacked and vandalized a church, and then no one gets convicted because there are no witnesses.

The problem however, is that this is not really an isolated event apparently by settler youth, but has analogies throughout the social structure and such incidents are hardly confined to youth. It's neat that you are looking toward Orthodoxy, so I don't want to discourage you by laying out all of those internal issues among Israelis. But it's worth exploring with you how they impact on non-Israeli Christians who live under their rule.

For example, you write about those you consider non-"extremist" settlers:
Most of them are just ordinary folk who like shouting at Arabs on their TV screens but are completely docile and peaceful besides that.
The problem is what happens when you get a crowd of ordinary folk who love shouting at "Arabs" on TV and then put them in front of a few Christian "Arabs" in Jerusalem or give them assault weapons, tell them to guard Christian "Arabs" at a checkpoint, or officially investigate a case of persecution like the one in this thread. And doesn't burning down a place of worship count as persecution?
 

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rakovsky said:
JoeS2 said:
We need to be very careful not to paint with a broad brush.  Ever since the '47 war and the establishment of an Israeli state there has always been a vocal but very small radical element in the Jewish state.  They have on occasions treated clergy with insults for years BUT they are small in number. the majority of Jews in Israel do tolerate and most live in harmony with other religious groups.
Hello, Joe.

I agree that we should not paint with a broad brush. But it's also true that we should have a correct understanding of the society's attitudes, and sadly the younger generations are becoming increasing intolerant. A survey by the Jerusalem Center for Jewish-Christian Relations showed that 52% of those aged 18-29 age responded that Russian Christian immigrants should not be allowed to practice Christianity.

(See: http://www.jcjcr.org/category/survey-1)
r
I fully understand why some are there as "Jews" because of the immigration policies of the State of Israel admitting Jews from Russia.  Orthodox Christians have on occasion registered as "Jews" to emigrate to Israel and hence the Israelis are now complaining that these Jews want to be Christians and doing so would compromise their program of immigrating ONLY Jews to Israel.  Israel IMHO do not want to import Russian Orthodox Christians.
 

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Hello again, Ergro.

You may have noticed that Marc showed up. To give you the background, Marc is an extremely intense American supporter of the Israeli government whose goal is to justify or relativize away any harm that the Israelis may inflict, including on native Christians.

So for example, on the last page you explained at length "why you almost never hear about these people getting any harsh sentences,  and why it's so easy to commit these crimes." And I agreed that Israeli enforcement is lax.

However, Marc came in to "debunk" the laxity of enforcement by pointing out that three settlers are getting prosecuted (not yet convicted) for burning their victim alive and to downplay the laxity of enforcement by posting about Hamas killing collaborators.

Marc1152 said:
Like the three Israeli youths who committed the revenge ( "Price Tag") murder last year? They are on trial right now.

Perhaps Hamas...

Hamas gunmen execute six ‘Israeli spies’...
Witnesses say masked gunmen have publicly killed six suspected collaborators with Israel at a busy Gaza City intersection.

The Hamas military wing...

His discussion of Hamas looks like a tangent here to derail the thread into Politics, since it doesn't have anything to do with the settler movement that inflicted the attacks, nor does it have to do with Israeli attitudes toward Christians or their general intolerance.
 

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JoeS2 said:
r
I fully understand why some are there as "Jews" because of the immigration policies of the State of Israel admitting Jews from Russia.  Orthodox Christians have on occasion registered as "Jews" to emigrate to Israel and hence the Israelis are now complaining that these Jews want to be Christians and doing so would compromise their program of immigrating ONLY Jews to Israel.  Israel IMHO do not want to import Russian Orthodox Christians.
Hello, Joe.

Yes, I can see that this is rational: Israelis only want nonChristian immigrants, therefore they don't want Russian immigrants practicing Christianity. However, openly nonJewish Russians are still allowed to immigrate under certain immigration rules (eg. on spouses), and so the desire for a ban is still discriminatory.

Furthermore, this is just one indication of widespread intolerance reflected in surveys.

32% of those in the 18-29 age bracket openly disagreed that their Christian citizens (including non-immigrants) must have "freedom of religion and conscience". 75% of all adults believe Christians need not be allowed to buy land to build a church. "45% of those in the 18-29 age bracket" were "greatly or significantly bothered when meeting a Christian in the street who is wearing a cross". (See: http://www.jcjcr.org/category/survey-1)

So even though most Israelis answer tolerantly that Christians should be allowed to practice their religion, unfortunately the answers also reflect that intolerance is increasingly common among younger generations.
 
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Please keep this discussion free from anything approaching politics or debate.

Yurysprudentsiya
 

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ergro, thank you for your post on this thread. It is infrequent that anyone gives a balanced look at the situation as polemics are far more frequently thrown around. I am also grateful at your ability to remain objective and unemotional when, as I'm sure you are aware, so many here has a disparaging view of Israel.
 

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ergro said:
Well, as an Israeli
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious about your background, catechumen and all. (by PM if you prefer).

TheTrisagion said:
ergro, thank you for your post on this thread. It is infrequent that anyone gives a balanced look at the situation as polemics are far more frequently thrown around. I am also grateful at your ability to remain objective and unemotional when, as I'm sure you are aware, so many here has a disparaging view of Israel.
seconded, it was a very informative post from an interesting perspective.
 

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ergro said:
Gamliel said:
^So there are some who do not go into the army?  The reason I ask is when I visited Israel in 1984, our Israeli guide told us that all have a service  time int he army.  Of course, she could have left out the details of ones the army decides it is better not to train.
Yes. People with harsher criminal records don't go in (I'm not sure what the exact criteria is there), people with a psychiatric history don't got in, and Haredim and Arabs don't go in.
The Druze do. At present there is a start of a protest movement about that. (why they go in in the first place has to do with their particular doctrine of blending in to the dominant culture, while holding Druze brotherhood above any other bond).
 

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Wow, this thread has gone into the 2nd page :eek:
If the attackers were the usual Mohammedan zombies -- they could still be -- the thread would have ended up with three or four replies, and the usual reaction, "Lord have mercy!", or landed in the political section. ::) ::) ::)
 

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rakovsky said:
Hello again, Ergro.

You may have noticed that Marc showed up. To give you the background, Marc is an extremely intense American supporter of the Israeli government whose goal is to justify or relativize away any harm that the Israelis may inflict, including on native Christians.

So for example, on the last page you explained at length "why you almost never hear about these people getting any harsh sentences,  and why it's so easy to commit these crimes." And I agreed that Israeli enforcement is lax.

However, Marc came in to "debunk" the laxity of enforcement by pointing out that three settlers are getting prosecuted (not yet convicted) for burning their victim alive and to downplay the laxity of enforcement by posting about Hamas killing collaborators.

Marc1152 said:
Like the three Israeli youths who committed the revenge ( "Price Tag") murder last year? They are on trial right now.

Perhaps Hamas...

Hamas gunmen execute six ‘Israeli spies’...
Witnesses say masked gunmen have publicly killed six suspected collaborators with Israel at a busy Gaza City intersection.

The Hamas military wing...

His discussion of Hamas looks like a tangent here to derail the thread into Politics, since it doesn't have anything to do with the settler movement that inflicted the attacks, nor does it have to do with Israeli attitudes toward Christians or their general intolerance.


You may have noticed Rakovsky has shown up. He will make an excuse for anything if it furthers the Palestinian or Arab political agenda. He once claimed Hamas terror rockets were just bottle rockets and powered by sugar.

If he cant refute something he will rework your statements, adding and deleting to put words in your mouth that he can refute... He is passive aggressive, ie, very friendly yet shockingly dishonest.

Buyer beware. 
 

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Marc1152 said:
rakovsky said:
Hello again, Ergro.

You may have noticed that Marc showed up. To give you the background, Marc is an extremely intense American supporter of the Israeli government whose goal is to justify or relativize away any harm that the Israelis may inflict, including on native Christians.

So for example, on the last page you explained at length "why you almost never hear about these people getting any harsh sentences,  and why it's so easy to commit these crimes." And I agreed that Israeli enforcement is lax.

However, Marc came in to "debunk" the laxity of enforcement by pointing out that three settlers are getting prosecuted (not yet convicted) for burning their victim alive and to downplay the laxity of enforcement by posting about Hamas killing collaborators.

Marc1152 said:
Like the three Israeli youths who committed the revenge ( "Price Tag") murder last year? They are on trial right now.

Perhaps Hamas...

Hamas gunmen execute six ‘Israeli spies’...
Witnesses say masked gunmen have publicly killed six suspected collaborators with Israel at a busy Gaza City intersection.

The Hamas military wing...

His discussion of Hamas looks like a tangent here to derail the thread into Politics, since it doesn't have anything to do with the settler movement that inflicted the attacks, nor does it have to do with Israeli attitudes toward Christians or their general intolerance.


You may have noticed Rakovsky has shown up. He will make an excuse for anything if it furthers the Palestinian or Arab political agenda. He once claimed Hamas terror rockets were just bottle rockets and powered by sugar.

If he cant refute something he will rework your statements, adding and deleting to put words in your mouth that he can refute... He is passive aggressive, ie, very friendly yet shockingly dishonest.

Buyer beware.
watch it with that log.
 

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Thread locked pending moderator review
 

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Marc1152 said:
rakovsky said:
wgw said:
"Pricetag" attacks like this have been going on for years, with churches, mosques, and even synagogues deemed objectionable victimized by them.  Many Jews have had their property damaged in "pricetag" attacks.  However the high profile of this incident seems to be causimg the Israeli government into getting serious about a much needed crackdown.  The "price tag" terrorists tend to come from the bammed Kach political party or pro-Zionist yeshivas, as oppposed tp your typical Haredi yeshiva, which will tend to be indifferent on these matters.

Thank God something is being done about it, but the "price" required for this mich meeded intervention was high.
Hello, WGW.

As I understand it, the concept of "pricetag" is that militant Israelis attack Palestinians as the "price" for getting in their way. The perpetrators' Jewish victims would be chosen for advocating nonviolent approaches and cooperation with Palestinians, correct?

But what makes you believe that the Israeli government is now doing something, as you say, about the militants' price tag attacks? Of course, the Israelis often take measures, such as arresting and giving light penalties to attackers or standing by as they watch the attacks. The same monastery had already been severely attacked last year. Was "something done" to prevent a repeat?

The article says:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu condemned the incident and ordered the head of Israel's Shin Bet internal security agency to "to conduct a full and speedy investigation."
Of course, having an investigation counts as "doing something". But Netanyahu has been making such statements for years, while the military has occasionally cooperated with price tags themselves.

Police said they initially arrested 16 youths, all religious Jewish seminary students from West Bank settlements, but released them shortly thereafter. Their lawyer, Itamar Ben Gvir, told Israeli Army Radio the police had no evidence against the youths and that they were under suspicion simply for looking like young settlers...
Arrests? That counts as "something" too.  But then, if there is no evidence, as a fully functioning democracy based on equal rights, suspects must certainly be released. And releasing suspects is doing something about the case too. So is something really being done, or is it just perfunctory? Contrast all this with what happens when Palestinians are perpetrators, WGW.

To give some examples of how the system works in practice, see:
"Vandal settlers, and their soldier guardians"
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/settlers-soldier-guardians

And what happens when some settlers want to go for a swim, the army is agreeable, and a village pool is nearby:
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/soldiers-palestinians-settlers)

"Settlers and soldiers attack village near Nablus, injuring 5. Torched trees. Killed sheep"
https://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2012/07/08/photos-settlers-and-soldiers-attack-village-near-nablus-injuring-5-torched-trees-killed-sheep
Like the three Israeli youths who committed the revenge ( "Price Tag") murder last year? They are on trial right now.

We never dreamed it would end in murder,' says Abu Khdeir defendant

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.659476

The bereaved father, Hussein Abu Khdeir, was present in the courtroom and shouted at the witness during his testimony.


Perhaps Hamas method of "justice" is more to your liking... It's certainly quicker:

Hamas gunmen execute six ‘Israeli spies’...
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/hamas-gunmen-execute-six-israeli-spies-on-busy-gaza-street-corner

Witnesses say masked gunmen have publicly killed six suspected collaborators with Israel at a busy Gaza City intersection.

The Hamas military wing claimed responsibility.

Witnesses said the six men were pulled out of a van Tuesday, forced to lie face down on the street and then shot dead.


Inappropriate image removed.  Mor Ephrem, section moderator.
Five bodies lay in a pile as a mob stomped and spit on them. A sixth body was tied to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets as people screamed, “Spy! Spy!”
Marc1152, 

Both before and after this section's moderator issued a general warning to avoid political discussion, you have made political comments in this thread.  Political discussion is prohibited outside the Private Fora, as you know. 

In addition, you posted an image which is in clear violation of our rule on clean images and media. 

For these two violations, I am increasing your warning level to twenty-five (25) percent. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator   
 

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All,

I am unlocking this thread and leaving it in this section in the hope that we can return to discussing the OP.  I repeat Yurysprudentsiya's strict warning not to engage in political discussion or debate. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 
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