Just die already!!

[vorgos]

Elderly Woman Resists Being Euthanized When She Sees the Needle, So Her Family Held Her Down

http://www.lifenews.com/2018/01/26/elderly-woman-resists-being-euthanized-when-she-sees-the-needle-so-her-family-held-her-down/

And...

Support for the practice is still strong, so strong that the Brothers of Charity, a Roman Catholic organization that operates the largest group of psychiatric hospitals in Belgium, has agreed to acquiesce to euthanasia requests — contrary to Vatican policy.

This decision came after a Belgian court ordered a different Catholic institution to pay damages to the family of a 74-year-old terminally ill woman because administrators required her to leave the facility for euthanasia. Religious conscience was no defense, the court ruled.

 

[Volnutt]

Terrible. But you also don't get to be cavalier about this.

Not when your position's only response to somebody like Dax Cowart or Ramon Sampedro is what amounts to telling them to buck up and go to therapy/Church.

Maybe that's the only moral/possible response, but it doesn't make it any less savage.

 

[Ainnir]

Here's an article focusing on the elderly woman's story. 
https://nltimes.nl/2017/01/26/euthanasia-controversy-doctor-rebuked-helping-uncertain-woman-die

ETA: There doesn't seem to be just a "normal" source for this story.  Patient confidentiality laws?  idk.

 

[Rambam]

I'm glad we can count on Volnutt to deliver the nuance regarding the murder of old women.

Terrible. But you also don't get to be cavalier about this.

Not when your position's only response to somebody like Dax Cowart or Ramon Sampedro is what amounts to telling them to buck up and go to therapy/Church.

Maybe that's the only moral/possible response, but it doesn't make it any less savage.

 

[Ainnir]

So, is there possibly a thread or article or podcast that discusses all of this frankly and without the bipartisan static?  "This" being euthanasia, pain management, and foregoing medical intervention.

I ran across Orthodoxy and Bioethics on AFR at one point.  It struck me as evenhanded, but I don't remember a whole lot of the content.    :-\

 

[Volnutt]

I'm glad we can count on Volnutt to deliver the nuance regarding the murder of old women.

No, I think what happened was awful and should not have happened. I'm sorry the first word of my post didn't convey that properly.

I was just trying to head off at the pass the smug self-righteousness that will inevitably want to equate all euthanasia cases with the abuse that occurred in this one.

 

[Ray1]

What happened to the woman is awful, and no sane person with a moral compass would deny that, but to use it as a weapon to deny people's right to end their lives is a problem. It is ironic that many of those who oppose assistance in dying may be among those who support the death penalty even though there are well-documented cases of abuse in the latter case, abuse that goes from targeting black people to actually executing people who turn out, later on, to be innocent.

There are cases of abuse in nursing homes, should we shut them down? What about the sex abuse scandal that hit the Roman Catholic Church mostly, and other churches as well including Eastern Orthodox? Should we put laws that forbid children under the age of 18 from entering the church building alone? Should we shut down Sunday schools because of the abuse that took place? Of course not. And that is how ridiculous it sounds when neo-conservatives try to use a few cases of abuse to outlaw something, based on this logic, most of what we enjoy today will be outlawed, which I assume wouldn't be that bad for neo-conservatives considering that they aim to build a theocracy.

 

[Ainnir]

I guess the answer to my previous question is no, then?     

Why do people want to die to the point of planning it, planning for it in their will, drawing a line beyond which they no longer value their own life or hope their loved ones value their life?  And for anyone who believes in God (Who Is Life), how do you reconcile a position that people should be encouraged to end their own lives (with or without help) whenever they want to?  Yet another issue that has been so effectively politicized, the theological heart of the matter will largely go unconsidered.  It's sad.  I mean, really sad. 

 

[biro]

Because they may be extremely sick and in dire pain.

You can't say that that is easy to go through. You can't.

Easy for you to say, hard for them. You don't know what they're going through.

 

[Asteriktos]

It's a shame, as everyone should have the right to say when their biological functioning is ended, if nature doesn't do the job first--ideally it shouldn't be up to governments, doctors, or religions, and it should never be forced on the individual. Of course in cases like this things get much more complicated.

 

[Ainnir]

You put words in my mouth, biro.  :-[  I didn't say anything was easy; I asked questions.  They weren't even condemnatory questions; I'm sorry if it came across that way.  Instead of just culturally saying "everyone should have their way, even if they want to die" and be done with it, I think we should be asking those questions, and effectively address the answers--ideally starting with God.  Not that belief can be forced on a cultural level, but that's so central to me, I do think it's sad society is trying to answer such questions and solve such problems without Him.  And I think as Christians, it is problematic to say God Is Life, and then turn around and say, "Oh so-and-so wants to die, well that's okie dokie then."  My mind can't wrap itself around that dichotomy and I don't want it to.  That's not in order to shame or condemn someone struggling with things that no, I don't understand--not completely anyway.  Such a condemning attitude is cruel, and not Christ-like--we should be figuring out what effective support and healing looks like.  And the theological starting point doesn't change--God Is Life.  And people matter.  There's no point at which they're too broken or too small or too old to matter.  No one is ever "just taking up space" no matter how minute their worth seems to our task-driven, results-oriented culture, and so no one is ever unfit enough to just cast off and shuffle out of the way, so to speak, until God sees fit to take them.  That's my starting point.  Where to go from there in a society that doesn't value every human life equally?  I don't have an answer to that and am disinclined to fight and mud sling over it; that's not what I'm doing here and I find it distracts from actual problem-solving.  I only know what I can't (or shouldn't) personally endorse, aid, or commit.  Suicide and euthanasia are two of those things.  It doesn't naturally follow that I think bad things about people who disagree with me or even participate in those acts.  But it is sad, and it saddens me.

Today is Friday and the Feast of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple.

 

[biro]

You put words in my mouth, biro.  :-[  I didn't say anything was easy; I asked questions.  They weren't even condemnatory questions; I'm sorry if it came across that way.  Instead of just culturally saying "everyone should have their way, even if they want to die" and be done with it, I think we should be asking those questions, and effectively address the answers--ideally starting with God.  Not that belief can be forced on a cultural level, but that's so central to me, I do think it's sad society is trying to answer such questions and solve such problems without Him.  And I think as Christians, it is problematic to say God Is Life, and then turn around and say, "Oh so-and-so wants to die, well that's okie dokie then."  My mind can't wrap itself around that dichotomy and I don't want it to.  That's not in order to shame or condemn someone struggling with things that no, I don't understand--not completely anyway.  Such a condemning attitude is cruel, and not Christ-like--we should be figuring out what effective support and healing looks like.  And the theological starting point doesn't change--God Is Life.  And people matter.  There's no point at which they're too broken or too small or too old to matter.  No one is ever "just taking up space" no matter how minute their worth seems to our task-driven, results-oriented culture, and so no one is ever unfit enough to just cast off and shuffle out of the way, so to speak, until God sees fit to take them.  That's my starting point.  Where to go from there in a society that doesn't value every human life equally?  I don't have an answer to that and am disinclined to fight and mud sling over it; that's not what I'm doing here and I find it distracts from actual problem-solving.  I only know what I can't (or shouldn't) personally endorse, aid, or commit.  Suicide and euthanasia are two of those things.  It doesn't naturally follow that I think bad things about people who disagree with me or even participate in those acts.  But it is sad, and it saddens me.

Today is Friday and the Feast of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple.

Okay, sorry.

 

[Volnutt]

I guess the answer to my previous question is no, then?   

I don't know of any sources for that, sorry.

Why do people want to die to the point of planning it, planning for it in their will, drawing a line beyond which they no longer value their own life or hope their loved ones value their life?

Well, nobody asks for illness (except St. Nectarios, I guess). It's not that they don't want to live anymore, or don't value life theoretically, it's that their own particular life has become so filled with pain that living is a constant hellish burden to them. There's life and there's quality of life.

And for anyone who believes in God (Who Is Life), how do you reconcile a position that people should be encouraged to end their own lives (with or without help) whenever they want to?  Yet another issue that has been so effectively politicized, the theological heart of the matter will largely go unconsidered.  It's sad.  I mean, really sad. 

Or could it be that because God is life, that passing from a miserable state of being into a better one with Him (to be absent from the body is to be home with the Lord) might actually be an act of valuing that life under certain circumstances (note to some others certain circumstances, I'm not saying everyone should just kill themselves and go to Heaven)? I don't know.

Not that I think it's something that one should ever be encouraged to do (I actually had an alleged friend try to convince me to kill myself once and it was kind of traumatic) and we certainly need to ask the tough questions of how legalization and facilitation, by their very nature, encourages people to suicide and whether that outweighs the good they might do.

It is an important thing to discuss theologically though and should be more often, I agree.

EDIT: Just to clarify based on your post that dropped while I was typing this the first time, I'm only talking about pain and quality of life decisions of the individual. Nobody is ever "too old" or "just taking up space" and I applaud people who decide that carrying on despite the pain is something that they can do. I just can't judge the ones who don't.

 

[Ainnir]

Okay, sorry.

Not at all!  Me too.    Just please don't hear all of that like it's from some random negative corner of the world or interwebs.  It's easy to do, though, that is something I do know. 

EDIT: Just to clarify based on your post that dropped while I was typing this the first time, I'm only talking about pain and quality of life decisions of the individual. Nobody is ever "too old" or "just taking up space" and I applaud people who decide that carrying on despite the pain is something that they can do. I just can't judge the ones who don't.

Ok.  It helps to start teasing out the different strands of the issues; I see your focus better.  It seems like there has to be some sort of compromise--something that makes it bearable?  But I have no clue about that, honestly.  There's a lot of medical knowledge I'd want before hazarding any sort of opinion or idea.

And it's good not to judge the person/people (especially on some existential level, goodness).  This should be our goal..."for in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you."  We've alllll got our different sins and struggles.  Yet God doesn't change, so Christians have to learn to mercifully struggle together and with the world while attesting His immutable holiness.  Not at all easy.  :-\  Thank God for the widow's mite.

 

[Rubricnigel]

As someone who has a relative with dementia and just put in a hursing home, i find this disturbing. She clearly resisted, maybe she changed her mind, humans do that daily.

And seeing my grandmother wish for death because she hates the home and how no relatives will take her makes me hate our society of elder care. She is upset and wishing for death but i dont think she should be put down,  nor the women in the story.

Ive seen people in hospice, doped up so much they just stop breathing. Its sad. But when we kill babies for nothing other that selfish desire, what do we expect of society to do with the unwanted elderly?

 

[RaphaCam]

It's a shame, as everyone should have the right to say when their biological functioning is ended, if nature doesn't do the job first--ideally it shouldn't be up to governments, doctors, or religions, and it should never be forced on the individual. Of course in cases like this things get much more complicated.

The thing is suicide aid is a terrible crime in basically anywhere in the world (homicide by consent is sometimes conflated with it as in the US, sometimes included in homicide as in Brazil), so where to draw the line? I believe in the ideal system people aiding suicide of their loved ones in extreme pain should be judicially forgiven, but legalising that doctors become angels of death is heinous.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

If the individual is dying and in pain, give them some medicine to ease their discomfort, but, do not rob them of their last moments of life.

In their misery, in their final moments....perhaps they will "come to their senses" on some subject.  We are ALL sinners...and maybe it will take us a lifetime to realize some of our mistakes, and in our final agony, when we cannot help but realize we are about to meet our Maker face to Face....perhaps at that moment we will truly be repentant.  Do not rob the dying individual of their final opportunity for salvation.

Additionally, watching loved ones suffer and die, is filled with meaning and life lessons for those who still live.  I watched my uncle/godfather suffer his last few days of life, unable to speak or move.  I thank the Lord that his ordeal was not overly prolonged.  However, his death, was the first death of a near and dear one in my adult life....and the pain we, the living, felt at his passing was intense.  After his death, "death" had a completely different meaning to me.  I was not longer squeamish, but, realistic...with a new understanding of my Faith, and my faith.  Upon his death, I became a different person.

When my mother passed away a few years ago, it was completely different circumstances.  While my uncle was healthy until his final 6 weeks, my mother was in pain with many difficulties in life, but, her death was almost instantaneous.  She had a heart attack and was in great pain at home...but, in the hospital for her final days of life....she was not in pain.  She was sitting up in bed, smiling, talking, and then she was gone.  She asked our priest to come and hear her confession, give her the Eucharist...and then she had a "vision"...and as she was talking to me and explaining what she was seeing around her (which I was not able to see with my eyes)...I knew she was going to die soon...and within 30 minutes, still sitting up in bed....as my sister and I stood and talked next to her, she simply leaned back in to the pillows and left us.

Both "exits" were designed for a specific person - both for those who were dying, and those who were left living.

Certainly, make the one who is dying comfortable.  Help them with the pain.  Hug them.  Let them know they are loved.  Pray for and with them....but, do not take their lives before the Lord does it.  It is a great disservice to them.  Leave them those final moments of life...their final moments to help themselves, and those around them.

 

[WPM]

Nobody believes me! . . .  Wah Wah

 

[Ainnir]

Thank you for that beautiful testimony, Liza.