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Liturgical abuse celebrated by pope Francis

Asteriktos

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I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
 

Volnutt

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Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
I'm guessing:

Women speaking
Altar girls
Nonstandard music
Clapping
The celebrant is not the only one speaking
The big Jesus balloon

Of course, as Mountain has acknowledged before (and which makes me think he's just trolling now), from the Orthodox point of view the traditional Latin Mass is a perversion anyway.
 

Alpo

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The Orthodox stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this Catholic.
- 2. Epistle to the Netodox 3:17
 

Volnutt

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Alpo said:
The Orthodox stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this Catholic.
- 2. Epistle to the Netodox 3:17
"And lo, it came to pass that the winning of an internetz was bestowed upon Alpo. And yea verily, it was good."
 

wgw

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Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
Strictly speaking, a departure fro, the rubrics and liturgical guidance of the Roman church.

Volnutt said:
Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
I'm guessing:

Women speaking
Altar girls
Nonstandard music
Clapping
The celebrant is not the only one speaking
The big Jesus balloon

Of course, as Mountain has acknowledged before (and which makes me think he's just trolling now), from the Orthodox point of view the traditional Latin Mass is a perversion anyway.
The extent to which it might be a perversion is, I would argue, limited to the practical implications of the Schism, communion in one species, and, one might argue, the relatively weak epiclesis.  It's worth noting that the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate and other WRO jurisdictions use something very similiar to the Tridentine mass, but with communion in both kinds using prosphora, a more explicit epiclesis and certain other adjustments in the form of the pre-communion prayer and so on, which one might regard as "structural repairs."

On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
 

wynd

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wgw said:
On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
What's wrong with the three-year lectionary, and what do you mean by the response to Scripture lessons? I agree with you on the rest.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Volnutt said:
Of course, as Mountain has acknowledged before (and which makes me think he's just trolling now), from the Orthodox point of view the traditional Latin Mass is a perversion anyway.
It would be nice if "Pseudo-Christians" didn't always feel like presenting "the Orthodox point of view" on things, especially when they get it wrong. 
 

wgw

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wynd said:
wgw said:
On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
What's wrong with the three-year lectionary, and what do you mean by the response to Scripture lessons? I agree with you on the rest.
The old RC lectionary, pre-1955, was very similiar to the EO lectionary, for example, on Great and Holy Saturday.  It differed a bit on Pascha and in a few other places, but there was a clear continuity beteeen it, the EO lectionary, and the OO and Assyrian lectionaries, as if they had a common source (to an extent I believe they did; some of the East Syriac OT lections line up with Jewish Torah/Haftarah pairings, for instance).  In 1955, it was damaged with the ill-as ised changes made by Pius XII to the Holy Week services; these were on a par with the 19th century changes to the Greek typikon (Kollyvades I think?).  However, at least there was still a sense of continuity.  The adoption of a three year lectionary in the 1960s was, as far as I'm aware, unprecedented in Christianity; Jews in Palestine observed a three year Torah lectionary, but it is impossible to say if this predates Christianity, and if this, or the one year practice adopted by other Jews and by the early Church, is truer to the reforms of Ezra.

Even if however, a three year lectionary does harken back to Ezra and Nehemiah, the fact the early Church didn't do that is enough reason for me to reject this as an undesirable innovation.

Now, I will admit this isnshaoed by my views regarding the liturgy; I believe a goal of liturgics should be to celebrate existing traditions more fully and with greater splendour, in preference to innovation.
 

Dominika

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wgw said:
The old RC lectionary, pre-1955, was very similiar to the EO lectionary, for example, on Great and Holy Saturday.  It differed a bit on Pascha and in a few other places, but there was a clear continuity beteeen it, the EO lectionary, and the OO and Assyrian lectionaries, as if they had a common source (to an extent I believe they did; some of the East Syriac OT lections line up with Jewish Torah/Haftarah pairings, for instance).  In 1955, it was damaged with the ill-as ised changes made by Pius XII to the Holy Week services;
Exactly.

wgw said:
these were on a par with the 19th century changes to the Greek typikon (Kollyvades I think?). 
Violakis. I still can't imagine that Greeks don't do the all 15 readings on Great Saturday Liturgy (especially the one telling about he crossing the Red Sea and that they don't chant canticle of Moses after this reading; even in RC novus ordo it's said, that even if the Paschal Vigil readings are shortented only 3, this reading must be read); well, I've seen some exceptions on YT.
 

scamandrius

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wynd said:
wgw said:
On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
What's wrong with the three-year lectionary, and what do you mean by the response to Scripture lessons? I agree with you on the rest.
I don't know if there is anything "wrong" with it, but it has completely failed in what it was designed to do: make the people more Biblically literate.  Besides, the point of the lectionary is not designed to become familiar with the entirety or even most of the Scriptures (because so much is omitted from the lectionary for the year) but to elucidate the lessons that bring us to Christ.  The one year lectionary or historic lectionary was never "broken" so it didn't need to be fixed.
 

Alpo

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^Wisdom.

Encyclopedic knowledge of the Bible is not necessary for every Christian anyway.
 

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wgw said:
The old RC lectionary, pre-1955, was very similiar to the EO lectionary, for example, on Great and Holy Saturday.  It differed a bit on Pascha and in a few other places, but there was a clear continuity beteeen it, the EO lectionary, and the OO and Assyrian lectionaries, as if they had a common source
Outside of the greater Feasts no it is not similar and differs quite a bit.
 

Asteriktos

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wgw said:
Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
Strictly speaking, a departure fro, the rubrics and liturgical guidance of the Roman church.
So what would constitute an abuse in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches?
 

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Asteriktos said:
wgw said:
Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
Strictly speaking, a departure fro, the rubrics and liturgical guidance of the Roman church.
So what would constitute an abuse in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches?
A lot. I've seen oodles.
 

Minnesotan

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wgw said:
Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
Strictly speaking, a departure fro, the rubrics and liturgical guidance of the Roman church.

Volnutt said:
Asteriktos said:
I'm not very familiar with Catholic services--which part is the abuse? Also, what does that mean exactly, 'abuse'?
I'm guessing:

Women speaking
Altar girls
Nonstandard music
Clapping
The celebrant is not the only one speaking
The big Jesus balloon

Of course, as Mountain has acknowledged before (and which makes me think he's just trolling now), from the Orthodox point of view the traditional Latin Mass is a perversion anyway.
The extent to which it might be a perversion is, I would argue, limited to the practical implications of the Schism, communion in one species, and, one might argue, the relatively weak epiclesis.  It's worth noting that the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate and other WRO jurisdictions use something very similiar to the Tridentine mass, but with communion in both kinds using prosphora, a more explicit epiclesis and certain other adjustments in the form of the pre-communion prayer and so on, which one might regard as "structural repairs."

On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
According to Wikipedia, the original practice in the West was versus populum and it only changed to ad orientem during the 8th or 9th century. Not sure how accurate that is. (However, one might argue that the real objection to the Novus Ordo's adoption of celebration versus populum, is the motivation the liturgical reformers had for doing so, rather than the practice itself).
 

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Mountain said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YHpffNUrg hahaha, he was cardinal back then.

What is wrong with them...
The Mass has become a form of Entertainment rather than Divine Worship.  We have the same thing in this City of ours.  Its a Spanish parish and the Masses are like a Mardi Gras. Its really frightening to see my former faith degenerate into this.  Do we need to be entertained to come to church?  I think YES.
 

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wgw said:
The extent to which it might be a perversion is, I would argue, limited to the practical implications of the Schism, communion in one species, and, one might argue, the relatively weak epiclesis.  It's worth noting that the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate and other WRO jurisdictions use something very similiar to the Tridentine mass, but with communion in both kinds using prosphora, a more explicit epiclesis and certain other adjustments in the form of the pre-communion prayer and so on, which one might regard as "structural repairs."

On the other hand, the Novus Ordo Missae as commonly celebrated is entirely unacceptable.  I believe the three year lectionary, the pattern of lections in the liturgy, the response to scripture lessons, the structure of the anaphorae, such as it is, celebration versus populum and other related practices, take  together (as opposed to viewed individually) render the Novus Ordo Missae broadly unacceotable from an Orthodox perspective.

I feel strongly enough anout this to argue that a return to a modified form of the old rites ought to be a precondition for Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation.  Which is reconciliation I personally desire, however, my desire for Rome to rejoin the holy Orthodox church organically, is exceeded by my desire to never in my lifetime be subjected to a guitar liturgy.
I agree, but the above is only a small part of what separates us.  After seeing these , what I call "Mass-ins" I just dont ever want to be associated with such antics.  The sacredness of the Mass has been greatly compromised and with approval it seems.
 

scamandrius

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JoeS2 said:
Mountain said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YHpffNUrg hahaha, he was cardinal back then.

What is wrong with them...
The Mass has become a form of Entertainment rather than Divine Worship.  We have the same thing in this City of ours.  Its a Spanish parish and the Masses are like a Mardi Gras. Its really frightening to see my former faith degenerate into this.  Do we need to be entertained to come to church? I think YES.
This is sarcasm, right?
 

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Mountain said:
I don't think its good to laugh at this tragedy, although, i am myself guilty of this, but it is not right to do so....

At this point it shouldn't be even a question which Church is the true Church, The Orthodox Divine Liturgy have no equals, few good examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_Yh_Ynvko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2SBmF7Wdgk

Actually the liturgical abuse have been foreseen in a vision of Saint John of Kronstadt
https://ijov.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/prophetic-vision-of-saint-john-wonderworker-of-kronstadt/

Interesting this is what we find today in the papal church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc6VjeB6w4g
Note: this video is provided by sedevacantis

Though i have to admit, the prophecy might be a reference to protestantism which is even worst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg
 

Mor Ephrem

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Vanhyo said:
Mountain said:
I don't think its good to laugh at this tragedy, although, i am myself guilty of this, but it is not right to do so....

At this point it shouldn't be even a question which Church is the true Church, The Orthodox Divine Liturgy have no equals, few good examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_Yh_Ynvko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2SBmF7Wdgk

Actually the liturgical abuse have been foreseen in a vision of Saint John of Kronstadt
https://ijov.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/prophetic-vision-of-saint-john-wonderworker-of-kronstadt/

Interesting this is what we find today in the papal church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc6VjeB6w4g
Note: this video is provided by sedevacantis

Though i have to admit, the prophecy might be a reference to protestantism which is even worst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Mountain said:
I don't think its good to laugh at this tragedy, although, i am myself guilty of this, but it is not right to do so....

At this point it shouldn't be even a question which Church is the true Church, The Orthodox Divine Liturgy have no equals, few good examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_Yh_Ynvko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2SBmF7Wdgk

Actually the liturgical abuse have been foreseen in a vision of Saint John of Kronstadt
https://ijov.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/prophetic-vision-of-saint-john-wonderworker-of-kronstadt/

Interesting this is what we find today in the papal church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc6VjeB6w4g
Note: this video is provided by sedevacantis

Though i have to admit, the prophecy might be a reference to protestantism which is even worst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
All Orthodox Liturgies are pretty, not just patriarchal.
 

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Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
 

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Mountain said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Mountain said:
I don't think its good to laugh at this tragedy, although, i am myself guilty of this, but it is not right to do so....

At this point it shouldn't be even a question which Church is the true Church, The Orthodox Divine Liturgy have no equals, few good examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_Yh_Ynvko
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2SBmF7Wdgk

Actually the liturgical abuse have been foreseen in a vision of Saint John of Kronstadt
https://ijov.wordpress.com/2009/12/25/prophetic-vision-of-saint-john-wonderworker-of-kronstadt/

Interesting this is what we find today in the papal church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gc6VjeB6w4g
Note: this video is provided by sedevacantis

Though i have to admit, the prophecy might be a reference to protestantism which is even worst.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07cmMhQxjfg
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
All Orthodox Liturgies are pretty, not just patriarchal.
As long the choir doesn't sing like a herd of dying cats and the icons don't look like they were written in the dark.
 

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As long the choir doesn't sing like a herd of dying cats and the icons don't look like they were written in the dark.
The Orthodox Divine Liturgy feel sacred and holy, regardless of the singing.

 

Mor Ephrem

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Vanhyo said:
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc
The Orthodox Liturgy is so superior that the priest spent the entire video tending to lamps and ignoring the Eucharist. 

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy? 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc
The Orthodox Liturgy is so superior that the priest spent the entire video tending to lamps and ignoring the Eucharist. 

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy?
Still, prettier than any Latin mass i've seen.
 

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Vanhyo said:
Asyirian Orthodox Church
What is that neologism. It started to appear everywhere like two years ago.

Mor Ephrem said:
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy? 
When I was in a Bulgarian cathedral I saw people reading newspapers and chatting whole matins,
 

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Mountain said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc
The Orthodox Liturgy is so superior that the priest spent the entire video tending to lamps and ignoring the Eucharist. 

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy?
Still, prettier than any Latin mass i've seen.
Sounds like you've only been watching watered down Novus Ordo, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIl7IB3n4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo1j_4Ogv0I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c32brXXx5k8
 

Mountain

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Volnutt said:
Mountain said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc
The Orthodox Liturgy is so superior that the priest spent the entire video tending to lamps and ignoring the Eucharist. 

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy?
Still, prettier than any Latin mass i've seen.
Sounds like you've only been watching watered down Novus Ordo, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIl7IB3n4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo1j_4Ogv0I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c32brXXx5k8
Better, but still, not impressed. My modest parish Liturgy beats it all.
 

Vanhyo

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Mor Ephrem said:
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy? 
Then you will say i am biased, there is no win with you...
 

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Vanhyo said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy? 
Then you will say i am biased, there is no win with you...
And from what I saw that DL in a cathedral was attended by a few dozens of people. And I did not see many other churches en route. Bulgarians do not seem like a churching nation.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Vanhyo said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy? 
Then you will say i am biased, there is no win with you...
If you make a winning argument, there will be win no matter what.  But those are not the kinds of arguments you are making. 
 

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Mountain said:
Volnutt said:
Mountain said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Vanhyo said:
Yes, it is totally fair and not self-serving in the least to compare Patriarchal Liturgies in large cathedrals to outdoor Masses and Pentecostalism.
Here, priest chant in a small georgian/Asyirian Orthodox Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lM1HdCQvSc
The Orthodox Liturgy is so superior that the priest spent the entire video tending to lamps and ignoring the Eucharist. 

Here is some from africa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XGHaq0n6YE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9bxpfXK07g

Orthodoxy always superior.
Is every church in Bulgaria a patriarchal cathedral that you had to go to Africa to find a "basic" Liturgy?
Still, prettier than any Latin mass i've seen.
Sounds like you've only been watching watered down Novus Ordo, then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqIl7IB3n4g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo1j_4Ogv0I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c32brXXx5k8
Better, but still, not impressed. My modest parish Liturgy beats it all.
I'm sure you think so.  Apparently, you make your parish Liturgy about yourself:

Mountain said:
IXOYE said:
Mountain said:
I am a chanter. And i often come earlier to help with proskomidia. I like helping priests, i probably have some inferiority disorder or something.
How do you help with proskomidia?
I light all the candles, lamps, ring bells, bring and lit incense, bring water or wine and chat with the priest while he is trying to focus. We don't have a deacon.
 

Vanhyo

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If you make a winning argument, there will be win no matter what.
What i was trying to say is no matter what i write you try to counter it, without thinking, just for the sake of countering it.

I am trying to warn people to stay off clown services, i am trying to give them a wake-up slap-in-the-face and you just keep picking up my points, and i have no idea what you are trying to achieve. Perhaps you want to prove clown services are ok ? Or maybe you are trying to say that Orthodox Divine Liturgy is bad ? What exactly is your agenda ?

This is a quote from the link i gave

We walked further and went into large church. I wanted to make the sign of the cross, but the starets said, ‘It is not necessary to cross yourself because this is a place of abomination and desolation!’ The church was very gloomy. On the altar was a star and a Gospel book with stars. Candles made of tar were burning and crackling like firewood. The chalice was standing there covered by strong stench. There was prosphora with stars. A priest stood before the altar with face like pitch and woman was under the altar covered in red with a star on her lips and she screamed and laughed throughout the church saying, ‘I am free!’ I thought Oh, Lord, how awful! The people, like madmen, began to run around the altar, scream, whistle, and clap their hands. Then they began to sing lecherous songs. Suddenly lightning flashed, frightening thunderbolt resounded, the earth trembled, and the church collapsed, sending the woman, the people, the priest, and the rest into the abyss. I thought Oh Lord, how awful, save us!

The starets saw what had happened as did I. I asked, ‘Father, tell me, what is the meaning of this frightening church?’ He responded, These are the earthly people, heretics who have abandoned the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church and recognized the newly innovated church which God has not blessed. In this church they do not fast, do not attend services, and do not receive Holy Communion!’ I was frightened and said, The Lord has pity on us, but curses those with death!’ The starets interrupted me and said, ‘Do not mourn, but just pray!


Hopefully now you understand the gravity of the situation, and why is important to get people off clown services weather they be protestant or novus ordo.
 

Asteriktos

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Vanhyo said:
What exactly is your agenda ?
I am a spiritual proportionality warrior.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." (Matt. 7:2)

"And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, 'Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?' But Jesus turned and rebuked them. Then he and his disciples went to another village." (Luke 9:52-56)

There's no need to call down fire on anyone.  ;)
 

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Just because that Bulgarian dude judged clown mass, doesn't mean he judge other people for their personal sins. Liturgical abuse should be judged.
 

Mountain

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Vanhyo said:
If you make a winning argument, there will be win no matter what.
What i was trying to say is no matter what i write you try to counter it, without thinking, just for the sake of countering it.

I am trying to warn people to stay off clown services, i am trying to give them a wake-up slap-in-the-face and you just keep picking up my points, and i have no idea what you are trying to achieve. Perhaps you want to prove clown services are ok ? Or maybe you are trying to say that Orthodox Divine Liturgy is bad ? What exactly is your agenda ?

This is a quote from the link i gave

We walked further and went into large church. I wanted to make the sign of the cross, but the starets said, ‘It is not necessary to cross yourself because this is a place of abomination and desolation!’ The church was very gloomy. On the altar was a star and a Gospel book with stars. Candles made of tar were burning and crackling like firewood. The chalice was standing there covered by strong stench. There was prosphora with stars. A priest stood before the altar with face like pitch and woman was under the altar covered in red with a star on her lips and she screamed and laughed throughout the church saying, ‘I am free!’ I thought Oh, Lord, how awful! The people, like madmen, began to run around the altar, scream, whistle, and clap their hands. Then they began to sing lecherous songs. Suddenly lightning flashed, frightening thunderbolt resounded, the earth trembled, and the church collapsed, sending the woman, the people, the priest, and the rest into the abyss. I thought Oh Lord, how awful, save us!

The starets saw what had happened as did I. I asked, ‘Father, tell me, what is the meaning of this frightening church?’ He responded, These are the earthly people, heretics who have abandoned the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church and recognized the newly innovated church which God has not blessed. In this church they do not fast, do not attend services, and do not receive Holy Communion!’ I was frightened and said, The Lord has pity on us, but curses those with death!’ The starets interrupted me and said, ‘Do not mourn, but just pray!


Hopefully now you understand the gravity of the situation, and why is important to get people off clown services weather they be protestant or novus ordo.
He is just trolling you. We call that in Serbian "Mile Kontrash", that is the guy who always argues the opposite, no matter what he believes in.
 
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