long hair?

Cavaradossi

Archon
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
2,036
Reaction score
2
Points
36
pensateomnia said:
orthonorm said:
pensateomnia said:
NicholasMyra said:
pensateomnia said:
However, the canons do in fact state
Please never say this again without citing the canon.
There are several canons about priestly and monastic hair, and not impersonating priests or monks. Trullo 21 is one that mentions hair-related customs, but there are many others, which I'm not going to look up for you. Try reading Chalcedon, Trullo, Nicaea II, Protodeutera 861, Hagia Sophia 879...probably also Neocaesarea, if I recall correctly.

Of course, during the centuries in question, monks actually CUT their hair.
I already dealt with the matter of the canons and their purpose and how they have no bearing here.
They certainly do have bearing in the conversation I was having, which was not with you.
Are you a member of the clergy?
 

Achronos

Toumarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Oct 31, 2010
Messages
13,265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
House Of Balloons
NicholasMyra said:
isaelie said:
But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
What does a monk vow look like in the EO?
I think he might referring to that practice of cutting a piece of the hair of a novice, or something like that I can't remember.
 

NicholasMyra

Merarches
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
8,838
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
hyperdoxherman.tumblr.com
Achronos said:
NicholasMyra said:
isaelie said:
But Nicholas why do monks take vows? Isn't their yes yes and no no
What does a monk vow look like in the EO?
I think he might referring to that practice of cutting a piece of the hair of a novice, or something like that I can't remember.
Tonsuring, which represents a first sacrifice to God.

My point is that... well... what is the purpose of a vow to someday become a monk?
 

isaelie

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
140
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Perhaps what Hiwot said is right, maybe this came from the evil one.
Pray for me.

Glory to God

Nicholas, in the near future, if God wills, i will be entering a monastery, and i am relatively young, so still at university (and the abbot would want me to finish because i've spoken to him before and he would not want me to rush into this) and just today it came to me that St Paul had a vow and had his hair cut off, and i thought to myself, 'why don't i make a vow, so that i will enter a monastery', and by doing so, i will have nothing stop me from going, for i have made a vow.

Forgive me brothers!
 

orthonorm

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
17,715
Reaction score
0
Points
0
isaelie said:
Perhaps what Hiwot said is right, maybe this came from the evil one.
Pray for me.

Glory to God

Nicholas, in the near future, if God wills, i will be entering a monastery, and i am relatively young, so still at university (and the abbot would want me to finish because i've spoken to him before and he would not want me to rush into this) and just today it came to me that St Paul had a vow and had his hair cut off, and i thought to myself, 'why don't i make a vow, so that i will enter a monastery', and by doing so, i will have nothing stop me from going, for i have made a vow.

Forgive me brothers!
God forgives. Really, nothing you said here seems harmful. Glad you found some help. Hiwot is among the wisest of the folks around here.

Take it easy.
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,642
Reaction score
1
Points
36
and i thought to myself, 'why don't i make a vow, so that i will enter a monastery', and by doing so, i will have nothing stop me from going, for i have made a vow.
Forgive the bluntness, but this way of thinking is dangerous. It is putting your will above God's will, the complete antithesis of monastic humility and forbearance. What if something happened, and you were unable to enter monastic life?
 

isaelie

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
140
Reaction score
0
Points
0
And i think this is what the previous posters wanted to know, and i withheld it

Lord have mercy!

The Lord leads me in the path of righteousness, How great is our Lord!

LBK, i know! You are right! What is wrong with me today! Truly, this is from the evil one
 

Hiwot

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
1,934
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
44
Location
USA
isaelie said:
And i think this is what the previous posters wanted to know, and i withheld it

Lord have mercy!

The Lord leads me in the path of righteousness, How great is our Lord!

LBK, i know! You are right! What is wrong with me today! Truly, this is from the evil one
My brother do not be too distressed, may the Lord shelter all of us, but we all face these sorts of attacks, the important thing is to do as you just have done, by the grace of God,sincere humility is our best defense. may the prayers of the Saints be with us, and May the Lord continue to guide you in the Way. remember this sinner in your prayers.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

Merarches
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
10,800
Reaction score
6
Points
0
Age
52
Location
Jackson, MS
Website
www.facebook.com
To grow the hair and beard is fine if you are doing it for personal preference or even as an outward sign of your personal spiritual commitment. However, I think the idea of taking any sort of Nazarite vow or any other vow in an individualistic manner that is not ordained by the Church is a dangerous concept. The Bahitawi monks of Ethiopia essentially live and dress in Nazarite custom, but I am pretty sure their vows are consecrated by the Church.

Just my thoughts. Others can correct me if I'm wrong.



Selam
 

JamesR

Taxiarches
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
6,924
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
24
Location
The Underground
St. Paul condemned it if I remember correctly but don't monastics always have long hair with very stylish pony-tails?
 

NicholasMyra

Merarches
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
8,838
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Website
hyperdoxherman.tumblr.com
JamesR said:
St. Paul condemned it if I remember correctly but don't monastics always have long hair with very stylish pony-tails?
Fashions change with time.

I think the Byzantines were scandalized by the slavs because their men wore pants.
 

Gorazd

Archon
Joined
Jul 14, 2009
Messages
2,571
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Benjamin the Red said:
From what I understand of Orthodoxy in Russia, it's generally only clergy that grow beards and maintain long hair, and seminarians specifically maintain short hair and are clean shaven, lest they come across as presumptuous.
That is a practice going back to Tsar Peter "the Great", not an Orthodox tradition.
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
1
Points
0
What's with the hair and beard threads on OC.net? The only people I've met who have problem with men's long hair have been Pentecostals and even among them it's pretty rare nowadays. No yiayia have given me bad looks despite my hair but these threads on OC.net seem to pop out periodically.
 

Pan Michał

Elder
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
479
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
34
Location
Warszawa
Alpo said:
What's with the hair and beard threads on OC.net? The only people I've met who have problem with men's long hair have been Pentecostals and even among them it's pretty rare nowadays. No yiayia have given me bad looks despite my hair but these threads on OC.net seem to pop out periodically.




Some people just see correlation.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

Taxiarches
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
7,220
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
The Ozark Mountains
NicholasMyra said:
JamesR said:
St. Paul condemned it if I remember correctly but don't monastics always have long hair with very stylish pony-tails?
Fashions change with time.
True.  But Christians aren't supposed to be dictated by 'fashion'.  I think JamesR has a point that I would like clarified (I seem to recall a thread on this but couldn't find it.)  Anyway, here's the verse:

1 Corinthians 11:14
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"  KJV

How does the Church reconcile its practice in view of this verse? 
 

Apples

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
GabrieltheCelt said:
NicholasMyra said:
JamesR said:
St. Paul condemned it if I remember correctly but don't monastics always have long hair with very stylish pony-tails?
Fashions change with time.
True.  But Christians aren't supposed to be dictated by 'fashion'.  I think JamesR has a point that I would like clarified (I seem to recall a thread on this but couldn't find it.)  Anyway, here's the verse:

1 Corinthians 11:14
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"  KJV

How does the Church reconcile its practice in view of this verse? 
Search "monkeytails" in the searchbar.
 

Asteriktos

Hypatos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,311
Reaction score
136
Points
63
Age
41
I long for the days when I could grow long hair.

Not that I would grow it long at present. But still... I just wish I had that option.

As for St. Paul... well isn't it obvious? For those who don't believe in biblical infallibility it is...  ;)
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,642
Reaction score
1
Points
36
William said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
NicholasMyra said:
JamesR said:
St. Paul condemned it if I remember correctly but don't monastics always have long hair with very stylish pony-tails?
Fashions change with time.
True.  But Christians aren't supposed to be dictated by 'fashion'.  I think JamesR has a point that I would like clarified (I seem to recall a thread on this but couldn't find it.)  Anyway, here's the verse:

1 Corinthians 11:14
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"  KJV

How does the Church reconcile its practice in view of this verse?  
Search "monkeytails" in the searchbar.
From that thread:

Here is the verse from Corinthians in the original Greek:

14 ἢ οὐδὲ αὐτὴ ἡ φύσις διδάσκει ὑμᾶς ὅτι ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστι,

The bolded word koma is a cognate of a word which, even in modern Greek, means to cut and style hair. The words kommotis and kommotria are the masculine and feminine forms of hairdresser, i.e. one who styles and beautifies hair.

It is therefore clear that plain, long hair is perfectly acceptable for men, according to St Paul, as, indeed it was for Christ.
 

Asteriktos

Hypatos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,311
Reaction score
136
Points
63
Age
41
LBK said:
From that thread:

Here is the verse from Corinthians in the original Greek:

14 ἢ οὐδὲ αὐτὴ ἡ φύσις διδάσκει ὑμᾶς ὅτι ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστι,

The bolded word koma is a cognate of a word which, even in modern Greek, means to cut and style hair. The words kommotis and kommotria are the masculine and feminine forms of hairdresser, i.e. one who styles and beautifies hair.

It is therefore clear that plain, long hair is perfectly acceptable for men, according to St Paul, as, indeed it was for Christ.
So I'm wrong? I hate when that happens...  :-\
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2010
Messages
2,319
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Benjamin the Red said:
From what I understand of Orthodoxy in Russia, it's generally only clergy that grow beards and maintain long hair, and seminarians specifically maintain short hair and are clean shaven, lest they come across as presumptuous.

As far as other culturally Orthodox lands are concerned...I have no idea.
Theology has nothing to do with Hair or any body parts, this issue is only valid as a cultural and social topic.

I have long hair, and when getting ready to take my mother to Greece in 1999, I asked her if I should cut it short, so I would "fit in" with our cousins there whom we had never met. My mother shocked me when she said no, leave it long, just get it styled as I always did.

When we had met some of our relatives after looking awhile, they wanted to take us to see the other first cousins, so we went to my moms first cousin on her mothers side, Christo, and his wife , they have a son who is Bishop Dorotheos , head of Syros area Islands whom they are very proud of, but as we sat with them Christo did not say much and my Mom had the feeling he did not like us, when we were leaving though, he started to cry uncontrollably, later my Mom told me she did not understand how he acted.

The next day our Cousin Elias who had taken us the night before to Christos house said we were going there again right away, my mom said to him she did not think he liked us , as he said little and seemed to be bothered by us. Elias said we must go, that we did not understand the problem was not us but something else entirely.

So we went back and had a very pleasant evening with Christo and his lovely wife Katarina that night.

The point of this story is that in addition to their son who is the Bishop of the Islands, They have another estranged son named Niko, who had been living in Athens since he and his father had an argument about his HAIR length.

When his dad Christo saw me with long hair the first night, he was struck that it was the hand of God, telling him he was foolish to ignore his son over his hair. The next day, unknown to us, he had talked to his son for the first time in years , and asked him to come home.

His son Niko came home later that year and lived at home again, His dad lived only another two years.

So it's true, the Lord works in mysterious ways.



 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

Merarches
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
10,800
Reaction score
6
Points
0
Age
52
Location
Jackson, MS
Website
www.facebook.com
“Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.” [I Corinthians 11:13-16]
Here is the 14th verse from First Corinthians in the original Greek: 

“ ἢ οὐδὲ αὐτὴ ἡ φύσις διδάσκει ὑμᾶς ὅτι ἀνὴρ μὲν ἐὰν κομᾷ, ἀτιμία αὐτῷ ἐστι,”

The bolded word “koma” is a cognate of a word which means “to cut and style hair.” The words “kommotis” and “kommotria” are the masculine and feminine forms of “hairdresser,” i.e. one who styles and beautifies hair.

So the admonition of St. Paul is not against the natural order (God forbid!), but rather against the unnatural practice of adorning and styling a man’s hair in the fashion of a woman. And the context of First Corinthians clearly indicates that the apostle’s teaching is simply that men should look like men and women should look like women. The issue is not the length of a man’s hair, but rather the style and appearance of his hair. A man should not be confused for a woman, and a woman should not be confused for a man. Therefore it is clear, according to St. Paul, that long, natural, uncoiffured hair is perfectly acceptable for men, as indeed it was for Samson, St. John the Baptist, and most likely even for Christ Himself.






(Thanks to GabrieltheCelt and LBK for the Greek translation.)



Selam





 

orthonorm

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
17,715
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alpo,

If you are referring to any of my comments about your hair, they were purely aesthetic judgements. Cut your hair and gain 20 pounds.

Long hair on most guys is horrible. Period.

Gebre, in the many photos of himself he has shared, is a clear exception.
 

Tamara

Archon
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
2,208
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I grew up in the Orthodox church and the only men who had long hair were monks. I have been to Russian, Greek, Coptic, and Antiochian parishes over the years, and the only times I noticed non-clergy men ( in the past 25 years or so) with long hair and beards were on those who converted to Orthodoxy. If you want to stand out as a convert than by all means grow your hair really long and have a big long beard to match.  :D
 

Alpo

Merarches
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
9,878
Reaction score
1
Points
0
orthonorm said:
Alpo,

If you are referring to any of my comments about your hair, they were purely aesthetic judgements. Cut your hair and gain 20 pounds.
I was refering to some threads here where people are seriously discussing whether Orthodox men should have beard etc.

I'd lose my soul if I cut my hair. I've had long hair for ten years and it'weirds  to think myself without. I wouldn't know what to do with them if they weren't long.
 

orthonorm

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
17,715
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alpo said:
orthonorm said:
Alpo,

If you are referring to any of my comments about your hair, they were purely aesthetic judgements. Cut your hair and gain 20 pounds.
I was refering to some threads here where people are seriously discussing whether Orthodox men should have beard etc.

I'd lose my soul if I cut my hair. I've had long hair for ten years and it'weirds  to think myself without. I wouldn't know what to do with them if they weren't long.
Dude it is oc.net.

It is oc.net. We are maniacs.
 

Apples

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
4,360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Asteriktos said:
I long for the days when I could grow long hair.

Not that I would grow it long at present. But still... I just wish I had that option.

As for St. Paul... well isn't it obvious? For those who don't believe in biblical infallibility it is...  ;)
In addition to what LBK posted I also saw something saying that shoulder-length hair was not considered long by ancient Semitic standards. Back-length would be.
 

Luke

Taxiarches
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
7,119
Reaction score
29
Points
48
Who decides whether to call somebody's hair length long or short? :police:
 

Arachne

Matriarch
Staff member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
12,116
Reaction score
79
Points
48
Age
48
Location
Camulodunum
Short hair needs more maintenance. (Don't try to make a bonfire of styling products, though! ;))
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

Merarches
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
10,800
Reaction score
6
Points
0
Age
52
Location
Jackson, MS
Website
www.facebook.com
orthonorm said:
Alpo,

If you are referring to any of my comments about your hair, they were purely aesthetic judgements. Cut your hair and gain 20 pounds.

Long hair on most guys is horrible. Period.

Gebre, in the many photos of himself he has shared, is a clear exception.

Thanks man. That was kind of you to say.  :)


Selam
 

Schultz

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Messages
6,691
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Age
45
Location
BaltiCORE, MD
Website
www.theidlegossip.com
We also have to define "long hair".  Would we consider the Beatles ca. 1964 as having "long hair" now?  They certainly did back then but the idea is laughable to me.  Is hair long once it goes past the ear?  Collar?  Shoulder?  Or is it only "long" once it's halfway down one's back?

 

Arachne

Matriarch
Staff member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
12,116
Reaction score
79
Points
48
Age
48
Location
Camulodunum
Schultz said:
We also have to define "long hair".  Would we consider the Beatles ca. 1964 as having "long hair" now?  They certainly did back then but the idea is laughable to me.  Is hair long once it goes past the ear?  Collar?  Shoulder?  Or is it only "long" once it's halfway down one's back?
By women's hairdressing standards, short is chin length and up, long is shoulder length and down, and in-between it's medium.

By those standards, most long-haired men I see around (the kind with ponytails, not full-time heavy metal musicians) actually fall in the medium length category.
 
Top