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Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR

ICXCNIKA

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Don't we have Western Rite Clergy on this forum that can maybe clear up any misconceptions or doubts we may have?
 

mike

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The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
 

arimethea

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Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priest. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
 

TheTrisagion

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arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priest. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
Yes.  I suspect Met Philip would not be overly excited about getting this mess dumped in his lap.
 

Serge

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arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.

Too many clergy and too few parishioners is a sign of vagante pathology it seems the ROCOR WRV had.

Don't we have Western Rite Clergy on this forum that can maybe clear up any misconceptions or doubts we may have?
byzcath has Fr David Straut of ROCOR, who says they're not killing their WR, just cleaning house after the lapse in discipline, which was a real problem (again, Nathan Monk). Though he might not be WR (I don't know), he's in a position to say.
 

PJ

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The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
 

Serge

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Peter J said:
The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
 

ialmisry

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The young fogey said:
Peter J said:
The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
No, they had more in common than the opposition to the Vatican.  At least the ones I know.
 

Sleeper

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The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
This.
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
The young fogey said:
Peter J said:
The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
My guess is no. Besides the usual cast of vagante priest wannabes (Nathan Monk), they probably had people very emotionally invested in their idea of pre-schism Western rites or non-romanized Anglican services. The stern Russians gave them a free hand, since they had anti-Romanism in common.
No, they had more in common than the opposition to the Vatican.  At least the ones I know.
I would assume that TYF didn't mean that was the only thing they had in common.
 

BasilCan

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There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil

 

ialmisry

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BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
 

Serge

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BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
Sounds like a good plan.
 

Maria

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ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
That is the way to go.

Mentoring is important, but the priest chosen to mentor must be exemplary.
 

Sleeper

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Though still somewhat vague, it appears ROCOR WR will not yet be going anywhere:

http://rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

???
 

ialmisry

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Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).
By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
 

ialmisry

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Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).
By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
both.
 

PJ

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ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
Peter J said:
ialmisry said:
BasilCan said:
There is a solution to bringing in non Orthodox clergy - make them complete a 3 year program at one of our Orthodox seminaries.  It's that simple. Sure most won't do it, but do we really want all our  convert clergy to get their theological training from the "Orthodox Christian Information Center"?

Basil
More importantly, they should serve/observe for a period or time with a priest.  We had a recent convert pastor (sort of out of the ordinary, as he had served in that capacity at stable Protestant parishes for decades) who was mentored by our priest for years, and then served alongside him for a period of time (at one point, with his congregation, as they were forced out of the building by those who stayed Baptist and their former parishioner allies) before ordination, and then thereafter.
Sorry to focus on a small detail but ... so their preference would have been to share a church building with Baptists?

???
No, the majority of the Baptist parish was going Orthodox.  The stubborn minority then recruited every former Baptist member they could get a hold of to vote in the election on that.  So the building remained Baptist (I don't know if it continued on after its majority of active members left).
By "the stubborn minority" do you mean they were stubborn b/c they didn't want to 'dox, or because they didn't want to let go of the building?
both.
Thanks for clarifying.

I guess I'm stubborn too. :)
 

Nephi

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Sleeper said:
Though still somewhat vague, it appears ROCOR WR will not yet be going anywhere:

http://rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf
And the ROCOR WRV Facebook page:

His Eminence, +Metropolitan Hilarion. has published a decree confirming the continuing stavropegial status of Western Rite communities in the ROCOR.

http://www.rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf
I thought, based on what people in this thread said, Christminster was stavropegial but the Vicariate itself was not? Or does this comment mean that the Vicariate will continue as stavropegial from now on?
 

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Nephi said:
I thought, based on what people in this thread said, Christminster was stavropegial but the Vicariate itself was not? Or does this comment mean that the Vicariate will continue as stavropegial from now on?
Vicariate was stavropigial since Bp Jerome wasn't a dioceasan bishop.
 

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88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
 

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Nigula Qian Zishi said:
88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  :mad:
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  :mad:
The Serbs in Buffalo takes part, as does ROCOR in the pan orthodox vespers during lent
 

serb1389

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TheTrisagion said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  :mad:
We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :eek:
 

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Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.
 

TheTrisagion

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serb1389 said:
TheTrisagion said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  :mad:
We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :eek:
:laugh:
 

kijabeboy03

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Peter J said:
The young fogey said:
arimethea said:
Michał Kalina said:
The young fogey said:
The smartest thing for ROCOR to do right now, now that it's clearly in communion with the rest of Orthodoxy (since union with Russia), would be for it to release its former WR parishes to Antioch. Everybody would save face.
Amen.
I am not sure the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America would accept many of the priests. At least 2 of them were turned down for ordination by the Antiochians, and thus why they ended up with ROCOR. Also, there have rules on how big a congregation must be before they are given mission status, let alone parish status.
I didn't think of that. Thanks. So the ROCOR WR Vicariate was largely a paper church of tiny parishes. I was thinking more of the attitude adjustment they'd need, moving from the ROCOR WRV, an anti-Catholic spite church, to the AWRV, traditional Catholicism but without the Pope. My guess is a number of them could do it, in order to keep some form of their culture (just not the form they created/prefer), remain Orthodox, and thus save face. Then again some of the ROCOR WRV rites were so byzantinized I imagine a number of these people will just go Russian Byzantine.
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm
 

Shanghaiski

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serb1389 said:
TheTrisagion said:
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
88Devin12 said:
I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.
In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.
Dang Serbians.  :mad:
We can't help that we're the best jurisdiction in the US ;) :eek:
The world, Father, the world. If it hadn't been for St. Milutin putting the fear of God into John V, we'd all be kissing the papal ring and singing kumbaya with cardinals. The Serbs were anti-union with Rome before it was cool.
 

PJ

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kijabeboy03 said:
Peter J said:
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
 

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Peter J said:
kijabeboy03 said:
Peter J said:
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
I agree.
 

spyridon

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The young fogey said:
Peter J said:
kijabeboy03 said:
Peter J said:
I wonder if ROCOR could have achieved their desired result, without the scandal of ordering WR parishes to go Byzantine, by merely encouraging them to go Byzantine?
The Eastern American Diocese of the ROCOR had a story on exactly this, a RWRV mission that was transferred (and presumably byzantinized):
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/june/miss.en.htm
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
I agree.
+1
 

Elisha

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The young fogey said:
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.
(not directing this at you specifically)

ISTM that the degree an Orthodox parish (mostly focused on those parishes that are mostly "ethnic", which would likely be most) is willing to be "pan" has much to do with how well the parishoners themselves integrate into American society by way of speaking English and non-Orthodox people they socialize/work with.  Ok, did thus just sound too stupidly obvious now?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Peter J said:
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?       
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Peter J said:
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?
As far as I know it's never happened.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 
Pretty much how I feel, except I'd include the Maronites as well to make it less of a "Catholic vs Orthodox" issue. If a Maronite parish voluntarily became Roman Rite that's fine, but this half-and-half stuff that seems to be rampant in most of their parishes is unfortunate to say the least.
 

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Elisha said:
The young fogey said:
Philly isn't a very Orthodox city, certainly compared to the rest of Pennsylvania, which is OCA and ACROD central. A handful of parishes of all ethnicities/jurisdictions (Greek, the three Russian denominations, Ukrainian, Serbian, Albanian, Romanian, and, outside the city, Arab and a couple of ACROD parishes). The ROCOR parish isn't unfriendly, just very Russian (WWII refugees), only one of two really Russian places, the other being MP. The Serbian parish at least used to be in the city but it may have moved to the 'burbs. I understand it was very isolated from the other Orthodox ones, but then again, with different ethnic groups and different languages, the churches have little in common. The ROCOR place in Tullytown outside the city (never been) is recent and ex-vagante. One convert Antiochian place in the 'burbs (the Arab one's close to the city).

Also, a couple of Armenian and Coptic churches in the metro area.

Also, Ukrainian Catholics (their cathedral and several parishes), Ruthenian Catholics (two parishes, maybe one now), a small Armenian Catholic parish, and a Maronite parish. The Ukes and Ruthenians are fading away as far as I can tell. Armenian Catholic nuns (like conservative but modern Roman Catholic ones) run a private school that many local Armenians, Catholic, Armenian Apostolic, and Congregational, send their children to.
(not directing this at you specifically)

ISTM that the degree an Orthodox parish (mostly focused on those parishes that are mostly "ethnic", which would likely be most) is willing to be "pan" has much to do with how well the parishioners themselves integrate into American society by way of speaking English and non-Orthodox people they socialize/work with.  Ok, did thus just sound too stupidly obvious now?
There's the rub. The younger generations leave when that happens, when they Americanize, no longer speaking the old language (happens naturally by the third generation in America for almost everyone) and marrying outside the ethnicity. Parishes of third, etc. generation ethnics, Americans, could be 'pan' while retaining their ethnic flavor but it seems most such Orthodox don't practice Orthodoxy anymore.

Ditto American Eastern Catholics only more of them become Roman Catholic.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Peter J said:
I think it comes down to what assumptions you make. That is to say, after reading that link I can understand how people could say Okay that all sounds fine; sounds like it was completely voluntary etc ... but if there were an article about the reverse (an EC parish becoming Roman-Rite) I'm sure that Orthodox would scream "Latinization".
I agree that it's about the assumptions you make, because honestly I don't see Orthodox screaming "Latinization" if an Eastern Catholic parish voluntarily became a Roman rite parish.  I could see that if they retained the Byzantine rite but suddenly started using hosts instead of prosphora or ditched chant for "hymns" from OCP something like that, but if they switched rites entirely?  At least there's a sort of consistency there (presuming, again, that they're celebrating it by the book and without "Byzantinizations").  It's not unimaginable for Orthodox to find something to argue about, obviously, but honestly, if they even cared to have an opinion about it, I'd think they'd see it differently.  I think they'd see it as having finally picked a side--Catholic or Orthodox--rather than trying to straddle the fence. 

But I could be wrong: has it ever happened before and I missed the backlash?       
So, you're saying that the change kijabeboy03 mentioned is only acceptable because it's a complete switch?
 
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