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Lutheran looking at Eastern Orthodoxy.

WPM

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Hi,

I am a Lutheran that is still investigating and studying the Eastern Orthodox Church.

1) I think the Lutheran service is almost the same as Eastern liturgy.

 

noahzarc1

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Not every Orthodox Christian agrees with this site's theology, but these were very helpful to me when I was introduced to this site and I was a Baptist when I read through these:

Of particular interest perhaps (if you haven't already read):

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_luther.aspx

Of General interest (if you haven't already read):

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_lutherans.aspx
 

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WPM said:
1) I think the Lutheran service is almost the same as Eastern liturgy.
While the first five petitions of the Great Ektania have been a part of most North American Lutheran liturgical books for six decades (beginning with the publication of the Service Book and Hymnal in 1958) and a three-fold Alleluia before the Gospel that is where the similarity ends.
 

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Weird, I thought you were already Orthodox.
 

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"Faith Alone" is imo a useless slogan (verging on a fetish) that doesn't actually tell us anything. Unless one is an Antinomian (which sane Lutherans are not, and I don't think Luther really was either even if he said one or two things that suggest otherwise), they recognize that there is no salvation without obedience to God. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in some kind of quid pro quo "buy your way into Heaven" view (at least, not anymore). So, I don't really see the point of trying to cling to "faith alone," when the best of the views of the two parties are functionally identical.

Sola scriptura also strikes me as being pointless most of the time since nobody reads the Bible (or any other text) completely free of outside information anyway and continuous, ancient tradition is one of my biggest reasons for believing in God in the first place.

So, without their biggest doctrinal beefs, I don't personally see much of a reason to become Lutheran.
 

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RobS said:
Weird, I thought you were already Orthodox.
People don't give up their families and affiliation so quickly unless they are under distress.
 

WPM

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RobS said:
Weird, I thought you were already Orthodox.
Yea, I don't know.

 

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Volnutt said:
"Faith Alone" is imo a useless slogan (verging on a fetish) that doesn't actually tell us anything. Unless one is an Antinomian (which sane Lutherans are not, and I don't think Luther really was either even if he said one or two things that suggest otherwise), they recognize that there is no salvation without obedience to God. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in some kind of quid pro quo "buy your way into Heaven" view (at least, not anymore). So, I don't really see the point of trying to cling to "faith alone," when the best of the views of the two parties are functionally identical.

Sola scriptura also strikes me as being pointless most of the time since nobody reads the Bible (or any other text) completely free of outside information anyway and continuous, ancient tradition is one of my biggest reasons for believing in God in the first place.

So, without their biggest doctrinal beefs, I don't personally see much of a reason to become Lutheran.
Forget about Sola Scriptura - Reading the Scriptures is more important than the Church Fathers.
 

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About a decade ago I went a found a priest Fr. Anthony R. Miller who was an Archpriest of the Western Rite in Ft. Worth, TX.

2) He died and I can still go to that Antiochian church and take communion if I want to.

3) My mom's Lutheran church is that much closer to the area I'm in.


4) I was never catechized or chrismated in the Eastern Liturgical Church . . . Or ROCOR (RUSSIAN ORTHODOX OUTSIDE RUSSIA) . . .


5) I think I want to take 2 years to pray and study about becoming Russian Orthodox.

Help? . . .




 

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WPM said:
Volnutt said:
"Faith Alone" is imo a useless slogan (verging on a fetish) that doesn't actually tell us anything. Unless one is an Antinomian (which sane Lutherans are not, and I don't think Luther really was either even if he said one or two things that suggest otherwise), they recognize that there is no salvation without obedience to God. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in some kind of quid pro quo "buy your way into Heaven" view (at least, not anymore). So, I don't really see the point of trying to cling to "faith alone," when the best of the views of the two parties are functionally identical.

Sola scriptura also strikes me as being pointless most of the time since nobody reads the Bible (or any other text) completely free of outside information anyway and continuous, ancient tradition is one of my biggest reasons for believing in God in the first place.

So, without their biggest doctrinal beefs, I don't personally see much of a reason to become Lutheran.
Forget about Sola Scriptura - Reading the Scriptures is more important than the Church Fathers.
It is, yes. But it's also the Fathers (and the Orthodox theology and tradition that instantiates them) that guides our interpretation of Scripture.
 

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WPM said:
Forget about Sola Scriptura - Reading the Scriptures is more important than the Church Fathers.
Most important of all is to read the Scriptures with the Church Fathers.
 

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I would suggest 5 years while standing atop a pole. Don’t let your left leg fall off, though. May St. Alypius pray for you.
 

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Volnutt said:
WPM said:
Volnutt said:
"Faith Alone" is imo a useless slogan (verging on a fetish) that doesn't actually tell us anything. Unless one is an Antinomian (which sane Lutherans are not, and I don't think Luther really was either even if he said one or two things that suggest otherwise), they recognize that there is no salvation without obedience to God. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in some kind of quid pro quo "buy your way into Heaven" view (at least, not anymore). So, I don't really see the point of trying to cling to "faith alone," when the best of the views of the two parties are functionally identical.

Sola scriptura also strikes me as being pointless most of the time since nobody reads the Bible (or any other text) completely free of outside information anyway and continuous, ancient tradition is one of my biggest reasons for believing in God in the first place.

So, without their biggest doctrinal beefs, I don't personally see much of a reason to become Lutheran.
Forget about Sola Scriptura - Reading the Scriptures is more important than the Church Fathers.
It is, yes. But it's also the Fathers (and the Orthodox theology and tradition that instantiates them) that guides our interpretation of Scripture.
Very good! I have faith in you. At least you understand that knowledge is passed on and ingrained though contact with a teacher. I think the message is lost if one just picks up a bible and tries to gain access to its essence. 
 

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So, . . .Leave Lutheranism, wait 2 years, and then become Russian Orthodox? . . .
 

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WPM said:
So, . . .Leave Lutheranism, wait 2 years, and then become Russian Orthodox? . . .
All of your questions sound like things that should probably be discussed with a priest.   
 

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I do not understand these 2 years. Do you want to learn more about faith? But faith is not only teaching, it is first and foremost life. Start living) Start with a talk with a priest, the announcement/catechism.
 

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Orthodox faith is a living experiential thing. Too much emphasis is often placed by converts on book learning. Centuries of saints learned the faith just from the Church services and their own private devotions. The services of The first week of Great Lent this past week taught nearly the entire Old Testament and much of the  New. Taught not just as history,    But explaining  how this applies to our spiritual life today.

So, if you are interested in Orthodoxy, attend as much as you are able, the services of the church.

I left Lutheranism (Missouri Synod) for Othodoxy more than 40 years ado.
 

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CarolS said:
Orthodox faith is a living experiential thing. Too much emphasis is often placed by converts on book learning. Centuries of saints learned the faith just from the Church services and their own private devotions. The services of The first week of Great Lent this past week taught nearly the entire Old Testament and much of the  New. Taught not just as history,    But explaining  how this applies to our spiritual life today.

So, if you are interested in Orthodoxy, attend as much as you are able, the services of the church.

I left Lutheranism (Missouri Synod) for Othodoxy more than 40 years ado.
This looks like a good and decent explanation of leaving Protestantism to join Apostolic Christianity.
 

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JTLoganville said:
WPM said:
1) I think the Lutheran service is almost the same as Eastern liturgy.
While the first five petitions of the Great Ektania have been a part of most North American Lutheran liturgical books for six decades (beginning with the publication of the Service Book and Hymnal in 1958) and a three-fold Alleluia before the Gospel that is where the similarity ends.
Does it matter which church service you wish to attend? …
 

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CarolS said:
Orthodox faith is a living experiential thing. Too much emphasis is often placed by converts on book learning. Centuries of saints learned the faith just from the Church services and their own private devotions. The services of The first week of Great Lent this past week taught nearly the entire Old Testament and much of the  New. Taught not just as history,    But explaining  how this applies to our spiritual life today.

So, if you are interested in Orthodoxy, attend as much as you are able, the services of the church.

I left Lutheranism (Missouri Synod) for Othodoxy more than 40 years ado.
+1

Biggest challenge for a westerner is trying to either cram orthodoxy into a set of codes or books or attempting to extrapolate the faith from those same codes and faith. Great reminder, thank you.
 

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Hi WPM

What is the reason you're considering joining the Lutheran Church or Eastern Orthodox Church?

Is it because you're trying to figure out which of the two churches is more right or correct?

Do you feel God is calling you towards one of the two churches in particular?

Is it because of travelling distance?  Is one church easier for you to get to than the other?

Just some things to think about.

 

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Deborah said:
Hi WPM

What is the reason you're considering joining the Lutheran Church or Eastern Orthodox Church?

Is it because you're trying to figure out which of the two churches is more right or correct?

Do you feel God is calling you towards one of the two churches in particular?

Is it because of travelling distance?  Is one church easier for you to get to than the other?

Just some things to think about.
Yes, the general inquirement into Orthodox Christianity.

I don't know what God eants or is calling to do … It takes a lifetime to respond to God.
 

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When Lutherans have the Sunday Service, how is that different from Orthodoxy? . . .
 
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WPM said:
When Lutherans have the Sunday Service, how is that different from Orthodoxy? . . .
The Lutheran theology of liturgy is different. For one, they believe that the Eucharist is valid by the faith of the people. Orthodox believe the Eucharist is valid by apostolic succession, form, and intent. Secondly, the Lutherans utterly reject the idea of the Eucharist as a sacrifice for the living and dead, which is absolutely essential to Orthodox theology and the intent of the Eucharist. Thirdly, as the Lutherans are not part of the Church, even if their sacrament was valid, it would not be efficacious. I.e it would not be guaranteed to give any true saving grace because they are not part of the unity and faith of the Church. Fourthly, the Lutherans do not commemorate saints in their liturgy which is an issue to the Orthodox.

The Lutheran format of the liturgy is generally based on the Latin Mass, which is an acceptable liturgy to the Orthodox. But the Lutherans changed much of the Latin Mass to reject the theology points I mentioned above.
 

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Gloria Tibi Trinitas said:
WPM said:
When Lutherans have the Sunday Service, how is that different from Orthodoxy? . . .
The Lutheran theology of liturgy is different. For one, they believe that the Eucharist is valid by the faith of the people. Orthodox believe the Eucharist is valid by apostolic succession, form, and intent. Secondly, the Lutherans utterly reject the idea of the Eucharist as a sacrifice for the living and dead, which is absolutely essential to Orthodox theology and the intent of the Eucharist. Thirdly, as the Lutherans are not part of the Church, even if their sacrament was valid, it would not be efficacious. I.e it would not be guaranteed to give any true saving grace because they are not part of the unity and faith of the Church. Fourthly, the Lutherans do not commemorate saints in their liturgy which is an issue to the Orthodox.

The Lutheran format of the liturgy is generally based on the Latin Mass, which is an acceptable liturgy to the Orthodox. But the Lutherans changed much of the Latin Mass to reject the theology points I mentioned above.
. . .

Is Lutheran Pastor invited to become Orthodox Priest? ...
 
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Only if he converts to Orthodoxy. Lutheran pastors are received as laymen the possibly ordained  because they don't have holy orders in the Lutheran denomination.
 

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No, because you can attend any liturgical service that you wish.
 

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Gloria Tibi Trinitas said:
Only if he converts to Orthodoxy. Lutheran pastors are received as laymen the possibly ordained  because they don't have holy orders in the Lutheran denomination.
Why do you need Holy Orders?

Everything Lutheran is empowerment to be a Christian.

So if I'm Lutheran going to an Orthodox service . . . There is not that much difference.
 

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Deborah said:
Hi WPM

What is the reason you're considering joining the Lutheran Church or Eastern Orthodox Church?

Is it because you're trying to figure out which of the two churches is more right or correct?

Do you feel God is calling you towards one of the two churches in particular?

Is it because of travelling distance?  Is one church easier for you to get to than the other?

Just some things to think about.
Thinking and studying about these things.
 

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Hello. I am Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. The Swedish Petri Communion Service has little in common with the Liturgy of John Chrisostom (sp)? I mean, don't get me wrong, the Petri Service is beautiful (I have seen it on YouTube), and of course, in Sweden, is referred to as Mass. That puts it at a similarity more with Roman Catholicism than Orthodoxy.

Really, we are similar to Orthodoxy in many ways. But we are also decidedly different in many ways as well. For example, we hold to the Three Solae: Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and Scripture Alone. We are also monergistic, where the Eastern Orthodox and Rome are decidedly synergistic. One can see this in Luther's German Mass. He eliminated that Canon of the Eucharistic Prayer, simply because he was so monergistic that the Canon seemed like a "work" in his eyes. Now, granted, most people attending a Lutheran Service Setting Five in LSB (which is the Common Service of 1888 and is pretty much Luther's German Mass) vs a Roman Catholic Tridentine Service in Latin (or even in English, for that matter), won't notice a huge difference there. In the Tridentine Service, the Canon was recited privately by the Priest and so the Congregation never heard it. In fact, in a Lutheran Mass Service, you would actually hear a bit more than you would in a Tridentine Service, simply because EVERYTHING is done allowed for the benefit of the Congregation. There are virtually no prayers that the Priest does quietly, and the Words of Institution are done in Gospel Tones, if one is being faithful to Luther.

If you are going to leave the Church of Sweden (I am assuming by the Swedish Flag that that is where you live; please correct me if that is wrong) for Orthodoxy, remember that the traditional Church of Sweden has more similarity to Rome than Moscow. I have a friend who has been on this board before, and he was raised Southern Baptist, became a Lutheran for 17 years, and then joined the OCA for the last 25 years. I personally have some disagreements with Orthodox Theology (obviously: I am LCMS, not Orthodox; if I agreed with Orthodoxy, I certainly would not be Lutheran)

I am going to give you what I think about "Lutheranism". I use the word in quotes because Luther himself hated the term, and preferred to call us "Evangelicals". But that has ALSO become a word that no longer applies, as the Evangelicals in the USA (you know, the Fundamentalist Baptists, the Pentecostals, etc) have unfortunately taken that word. Unfortunately, we are stuck with the term "Lutheran", or at best "Evangelical Lutheran".

Personally, when someone asks me where I go to church, I tell them I am a Reformed Catholic. THEN I explain that Lutherans are only Protestant insofar as John the Steadfast was called Protestant because he protested against the Holy Roman Emperor when Charles V demanded that John give Luther up (Luther was being protected by John at the time). In other words, the word "Protestant" originally came into existence for political purposes, and meant NOTHING spiritual at all. I am not a Protestant. How could I be? I can't exactly protest anything against a Holy Roman Emperor, since that position no long exists.

I firmly believe that Martin Luther considered himself a Catholic to his dying day. This is a man who, having many faults, was humble enough to admit that and go to Confession every single week until the day he died. This is a man who, three weeks before his death, was celebrating Mass, when the Chalice that he was elevating shook (Martin Luther's hands shook in his older years), and some of the Blood of Christ fell on the floor. He promptly, but very painfully dropped to his knees (he had knee problems) and licked up every single drop of the Blood of Christ that had fallen on the floor. He then arose, again, painfully, and continued with the Mass. The Congregation broke into tears.

Article 24 of the Augsburg Confession states that we are accused of abolishing the Mass. In fact, we safeguard and protect the Mass, and celebrate it every Sunday and Holy Day, with the greatest reverence. Now, I know that Missouri Synod does not do this, preferring to celebrate Communion every other Sunday (this is one of the few complaints I have with LCMS; I think they should celebrate Divine Service with Communion every week). This is a very sad thing, and must be brought up at every voter's meeting in every parish of the LCMS, until we can get every parish (some parishes already do) to celebrate Mass according to the Augsburg Confession, Article 24.

I believe, with all my heart, that the Evangelical Lutheran Church (in other words, the Quia [Confessional] Churches) is the fullness of the Catholic Faith delivered to us by the Saints. I certainly don't deny that other Churches can and do lead their believers to a better relationship with our Triune God. But I do believe that the Evangelical Lutherans have the fullness of the Catholic Faith that other Churches do not have.

Now, that being said, I want to say something else. The definition of the Church is that it exists anywhere the Word of God is properly preached, and the Holy Sacraments properly and duly administered. So, that being the case, we KNOW that Evangelical Lutheran Churches are in the fullness of the Catholic Faith. We DON'T know about other Churches. Although I disagree with some of the theology of Orthodoxy (basically, I consider Evangelical Lutheranism to be more orthodox [lower-case o letter] than the Orthodox [upper-case O letter]), I cannot say that they categorically are NOT the Church. ANYWHERE that the Word of God is properly preached, and the Holy Sacraments duly and rightly administered, there you will find the Church. If that happens in Orthodox Churches, or Roman Catholic Churches, or Anglican Churches, then they are part of the Church. That may very well happen in some parishes of Churches not in full Altar Fellowship with us. I simply don't know, and don't want to guess.

I am NOT going to tell an Orthodox Christian about the status of his soul. I am not God. I leave that sort of thing to the Deity. I WILL tell him about the truth of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Bible, and the Book of Concord that explains many of the of the truths contained in the Bible. If he accepts that, and becomes a Lutheran, that is awesome. If he doesn't, that is no sweat off my nose. I can offer the Evangelical, Reformed Catholic, Lutheran Faith to someone. I cannot and shall not ram it down someone's throat.

In all our dealings with other persons, charity must be first and foremost in our hearts. Christ did not die for us in order for us to destroy each other. He died to save us from our sin, and bring us to everlasting life. The more we think about THAT, and less about our theological differences, the more those differences MAY be resolvable. Or may not. I know full well that the only way for the Orthodox to agree with me is if I become Orthodox, which I have no intention of doing. And I shall not agree with an Orthodox Christian unless he becomes an Evangelical Lutheran. But in all things, Charity.

I encourage you all in your studies of Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. I pray that each of you may find that place that God is leading you toward, wherever that may be. After long and hard exploration (I was raised Roman and Anglican, studied Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and even spent a long time attending synagogue) I have found my way home to the Evangelical Catholic and Lutheran Faith. I have never been so happy as I am now.

Wherever you end up, Lutheranism or Orthodoxy, I pray that you will only make such a decision after prayer and study. But charity, always, no matter how much we may disagree with each other. Peace be with you.
 

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WPM said:
About a decade ago I went a found a priest Fr. Anthony R. Miller who was an Archpriest of the Western Rite in Ft. Worth, TX.

2) He died and I can still go to that Antiochian church and take communion if I want to.

3) My mom's Lutheran church is that much closer to the area I'm in.


4) I was never catechized or chrismated in the Eastern Liturgical Church . . . Or ROCOR (RUSSIAN ORTHODOX OUTSIDE RUSSIA) . . .


5) I think I want to take 2 years to pray and study about becoming Russian Orthodox.

Help? . . .
Do step 5 then.
Read the church fathers and try to find the differences between luther and E.O.

 

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Diego said:
Hello. I am Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. The Swedish Petri Communion Service has little in common with the Liturgy of John Chrisostom (sp)? I mean, don't get me wrong, the Petri Service is beautiful (I have seen it on YouTube), and of course, in Sweden, is referred to as Mass. That puts it at a similarity more with Roman Catholicism than Orthodoxy.

Really, we are similar to Orthodoxy in many ways. But we are also decidedly different in many ways as well. For example, we hold to the Three Solae: Grace Alone, Faith Alone, and Scripture Alone. We are also monergistic, where the Eastern Orthodox and Rome are decidedly synergistic. One can see this in Luther's German Mass. He eliminated that Canon of the Eucharistic Prayer, simply because he was so monergistic that the Canon seemed like a "work" in his eyes. Now, granted, most people attending a Lutheran Service Setting Five in LSB (which is the Common Service of 1888 and is pretty much Luther's German Mass) vs a Roman Catholic Tridentine Service in Latin (or even in English, for that matter), won't notice a huge difference there. In the Tridentine Service, the Canon was recited privately by the Priest and so the Congregation never heard it. In fact, in a Lutheran Mass Service, you would actually hear a bit more than you would in a Tridentine Service, simply because EVERYTHING is done allowed for the benefit of the Congregation. There are virtually no prayers that the Priest does quietly, and the Words of Institution are done in Gospel Tones, if one is being faithful to Luther.

If you are going to leave the Church of Sweden (I am assuming by the Swedish Flag that that is where you live; please correct me if that is wrong) for Orthodoxy, remember that the traditional Church of Sweden has more similarity to Rome than Moscow. I have a friend who has been on this board before, and he was raised Southern Baptist, became a Lutheran for 17 years, and then joined the OCA for the last 25 years. I personally have some disagreements with Orthodox Theology (obviously: I am LCMS, not Orthodox; if I agreed with Orthodoxy, I certainly would not be Lutheran)

I am going to give you what I think about "Lutheranism". I use the word in quotes because Luther himself hated the term, and preferred to call us "Evangelicals". But that has ALSO become a word that no longer applies, as the Evangelicals in the USA (you know, the Fundamentalist Baptists, the Pentecostals, etc) have unfortunately taken that word. Unfortunately, we are stuck with the term "Lutheran", or at best "Evangelical Lutheran".

Personally, when someone asks me where I go to church, I tell them I am a Reformed Catholic. THEN I explain that Lutherans are only Protestant insofar as John the Steadfast was called Protestant because he protested against the Holy Roman Emperor when Charles V demanded that John give Luther up (Luther was being protected by John at the time). In other words, the word "Protestant" originally came into existence for political purposes, and meant NOTHING spiritual at all. I am not a Protestant. How could I be? I can't exactly protest anything against a Holy Roman Emperor, since that position no long exists.

I firmly believe that Martin Luther considered himself a Catholic to his dying day. This is a man who, having many faults, was humble enough to admit that and go to Confession every single week until the day he died. This is a man who, three weeks before his death, was celebrating Mass, when the Chalice that he was elevating shook (Martin Luther's hands shook in his older years), and some of the Blood of Christ fell on the floor. He promptly, but very painfully dropped to his knees (he had knee problems) and licked up every single drop of the Blood of Christ that had fallen on the floor. He then arose, again, painfully, and continued with the Mass. The Congregation broke into tears.

Article 24 of the Augsburg Confession states that we are accused of abolishing the Mass. In fact, we safeguard and protect the Mass, and celebrate it every Sunday and Holy Day, with the greatest reverence. Now, I know that Missouri Synod does not do this, preferring to celebrate Communion every other Sunday (this is one of the few complaints I have with LCMS; I think they should celebrate Divine Service with Communion every week). This is a very sad thing, and must be brought up at every voter's meeting in every parish of the LCMS, until we can get every parish (some parishes already do) to celebrate Mass according to the Augsburg Confession, Article 24.

I believe, with all my heart, that the Evangelical Lutheran Church (in other words, the Quia [Confessional] Churches) is the fullness of the Catholic Faith delivered to us by the Saints. I certainly don't deny that other Churches can and do lead their believers to a better relationship with our Triune God. But I do believe that the Evangelical Lutherans have the fullness of the Catholic Faith that other Churches do not have.

Now, that being said, I want to say something else. The definition of the Church is that it exists anywhere the Word of God is properly preached, and the Holy Sacraments properly and duly administered. So, that being the case, we KNOW that Evangelical Lutheran Churches are in the fullness of the Catholic Faith. We DON'T know about other Churches. Although I disagree with some of the theology of Orthodoxy (basically, I consider Evangelical Lutheranism to be more orthodox [lower-case o letter] than the Orthodox [upper-case O letter]), I cannot say that they categorically are NOT the Church. ANYWHERE that the Word of God is properly preached, and the Holy Sacraments duly and rightly administered, there you will find the Church. If that happens in Orthodox Churches, or Roman Catholic Churches, or Anglican Churches, then they are part of the Church. That may very well happen in some parishes of Churches not in full Altar Fellowship with us. I simply don't know, and don't want to guess.

I am NOT going to tell an Orthodox Christian about the status of his soul. I am not God. I leave that sort of thing to the Deity. I WILL tell him about the truth of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Bible, and the Book of Concord that explains many of the of the truths contained in the Bible. If he accepts that, and becomes a Lutheran, that is awesome. If he doesn't, that is no sweat off my nose. I can offer the Evangelical, Reformed Catholic, Lutheran Faith to someone. I cannot and shall not ram it down someone's throat.

In all our dealings with other persons, charity must be first and foremost in our hearts. Christ did not die for us in order for us to destroy each other. He died to save us from our sin, and bring us to everlasting life. The more we think about THAT, and less about our theological differences, the more those differences MAY be resolvable. Or may not. I know full well that the only way for the Orthodox to agree with me is if I become Orthodox, which I have no intention of doing. And I shall not agree with an Orthodox Christian unless he becomes an Evangelical Lutheran. But in all things, Charity.

I encourage you all in your studies of Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. I pray that each of you may find that place that God is leading you toward, wherever that may be. After long and hard exploration (I was raised Roman and Anglican, studied Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and even spent a long time attending synagogue) I have found my way home to the Evangelical Catholic and Lutheran Faith. I have never been so happy as I am now.

Wherever you end up, Lutheranism or Orthodoxy, I pray that you will only make such a decision after prayer and study. But charity, always, no matter how much we may disagree with each other. Peace be with you.
Well, like I said, to me the whole thing kind of seems a bit pointless.

Volnutt said:
"Faith Alone" is imo a useless slogan (verging on a fetish) that doesn't actually tell us anything. Unless one is an Antinomian (which sane Lutherans are not, and I don't think Luther really was either even if he said one or two things that suggest otherwise), they recognize that there is no salvation without obedience to God. And neither Catholics nor Orthodox believe in some kind of quid pro quo "buy your way into Heaven" view (at least, not anymore). So, I don't really see the point of trying to cling to "faith alone," when the best of the views of the two parties are functionally identical.

Sola scriptura also strikes me as being pointless most of the time since nobody reads the Bible (or any other text) completely free of outside information anyway and continuous, ancient tradition is one of my biggest reasons for believing in God in the first place.

So, without their biggest doctrinal beefs, I don't personally see much of a reason to become Lutheran.
The "Apostolic Churches" are also a lot older than Lutheranism, which I think should count for a lot in this context. And they avoid the whole question of whether "every pastor a bishop" is really an appropriate definition of Apostolic Succession.
 

Diego

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I don't know that the age of a Church should necessarily count for much. The Roman Catholic Church is as old as Orthodoxy, and look at the mess its been in since Vatican II. At least Orthodoxy hasn't destroyed their Liturgy "in the Spirit of Vatican II".
 

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Diego said:
I don't know that the age of a Church should necessarily count for much. The Roman Catholic Church is as old as Orthodoxy, and look at the mess its been in since Vatican II. At least Orthodoxy hasn't destroyed their Liturgy "in the Spirit of Vatican II".
True, but they're both older than Lutheranism. Age can be one of the essential criteria without being the only one. Catholicism can still be false for other reasons.

Lutherans, Orthodox, and Catholics all try to read their traditions into the Apostolic period and we here on the ground need some concrete reasons to decide who's more likely to be correct. Orthodoxy seems to me have a leg up in both its age and it not being as logocentric (recognizing the importance of unwritten tradition in the life of a Church) so it doesn't have to rely quite as much on uncertain exegetical arguments as the Lutherans do.
 

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WPM said:
About a decade ago I went a found a priest Fr. Anthony R. Miller who was an Archpriest of the Western Rite in Ft. Worth, TX.

2) He died and I can still go to that Antiochian church and take communion if I want to.
So you aren't Orthodox yet, but are allowed to approach communion chalice? 
 

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PorphyriosK said:
WPM said:
About a decade ago I went a found a priest Fr. Anthony R. Miller who was an Archpriest of the Western Rite in Ft. Worth, TX.

2) He died and I can still go to that Antiochian church and take communion if I want to.
So you aren't Orthodox yet, but are allowed to approach communion chalice?
Yea, The Chalice and the Spoon in the Eastern Liturgy.

I do a lot of Exploring,Inquiring,and Asking of Questions.
 

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I was chrismated in the Western Rite in Ft. Worth but since then left to Explore.
 

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WPM said:
Hi,

I am a Lutheran that is still investigating and studying the Eastern Orthodox Church.

1) I think the Lutheran service is almost the same as Eastern liturgy.
Nope, you need to make pilgrimages and bow down to statues and have many icons in your home and develop an undying love for the blessed and glorified Lady which is nearly impossible for protestant converts.
 

Asteriktos

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Malihah said:
WPM said:
Hi,

I am a Lutheran that is still investigating and studying the Eastern Orthodox Church.

1) I think the Lutheran service is almost the same as Eastern liturgy.
Nope, you need to make pilgrimages and bow down to statues and have many icons in your home and develop an undying love for the blessed and glorified Lady which is nearly impossible for protestant converts.
 
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