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M M M MY SRAOANA!

Do you think the Self Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America (SRAOANA) should schism


  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
I truly am shocked by such advice.
No you're not- you're just being overly dramatic.....but that's OK.
I am shocked in a quite visceral way.

I remember the day about two years ago when I overheard a member of the choir say to a man and his wife who were frequent vistors and thinking of converting.  He is a church organist for a Roman Catholic parish.  They were told quite stridently, "Why do you come here, this is a church for Russians, there is an Englich church two blocks away."

They lost interest in Orthodoxy and although he calls in for a cup of tea regularly his lack of interest is insurmountable.

That is why I hate it when I hear people give such "advice."
 

Second Chance

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ozgeorge said:
Well, I voted yes because I'm sick to death of hearing stupid declarations by anonymous internet nobodies about the current issues in the SRAOANA, so I think the sooner they split off and declare themselves autocephalous and do whatever they want, the better.
I am new so forgive me if I am breaking a protocol. In my opinion, you have been very rude in a variety of posts today. Please dial it down. An internet nobody.
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
We were not in schism.   
Really? so why the need for the Rapprochement?
Please read Message 35.

The real question before us now is why has the Exarchate in Paris (which placed itself under Constantinople during the decades of Communism) not obeyed Decree 362 and achieved rapprochement with its Mother Church in Moscow?
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
The real question before us now is why has the Exarchate in Paris (which placed itself under Constantinople during the decades of Communism) not obeyed Decree 362 and achieved rapprochement with its Mother Church in Moscow?
Is that the real question of this thread? Not according to the poll.
This thread is about whether the Antiocian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America should schism from it's Patriarchate and the rest of Orthodoxy and declare itself autocephalous. I think it should- what do you think?
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
The real question before us now is why has the Exarchate in Paris (which placed itself under Constantinople during the decades of Communism) not obeyed Decree 362 and achieved rapprochement with its Mother Church in Moscow?
Is that the real question of this thread? Not according to the poll.
Agreed.  I was slightly surprised when you brought in the red herring of the Russian Church Abroad being in schism.

This thread is about whether the Antiocian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America should schism from it's Patriarchate and the rest of Orthodoxy and declare itself autocephalous. I think it should- what do you think?
Answered in Message 4.
 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
Answered in Message 4.
The question is should the Antiochians declare themselves Autocephalous, and you say no.
Is this because no Church has the right to declare itself Autocephalous without it being granted by its mother Church?
 

Irish Hermit

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Answered in Message 4.
The question is should the Antiochians declare themselves Autocephalous, and you say no.
Correction, that was NOT the question to which I said No!  I said no to the question as to whether they should go into schism with all the Orthodox Churches.

 

ozgeorge

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Irish Hermit said:
ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
Answered in Message 4.
The question is should the Antiochians declare themselves Autocephalous, and you say no.
Correction, that was NOT the question to which I said No!  I said no to the question as to whether they should go into schism with all the Orthodox Churches.
Oh. So you are saying that the SRAOANA should declare it's own autocephaly?
 

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One of two things will happen, either Antioch will start controlling the Archdiocese with a heavier Arab hand once Met. Philip is gone, in which case, Damascus will see the end of growth over here as large numbers of Antiochians will leave for other jurisdictions due to the patriarchate's miscalculations. Finally, our Archdiocese will die a slow painful death...with our death, Damascus will be shooting themselves in the foot and begin experiencing pain of their own which will lead to their own march to extinction (no more funding from a now defunct archdiocese).

Or the former diocesan bishops will find a way out of this mess and the laity will withhold their money forcing Damascus to rescind this ridiculous mandate. AOCA will carry on as before and continue to grow as it works more closely with the OCA in order to unite at a some near point in the future.

The Byzantine Empire is dead. When will the patriarchates in the east realize that?
 
 

Irish Hermit

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Tamara said:
One of two things will happen, either Antioch will start controlling the Archdiocese with a heavier Arab hand once Met. Philip is gone, in which case, Damascus will see the end of growth over here as large numbers of Antiochians will leave for other jurisdictions due to the patriarchate's miscalculations. Finally, our Archdiocese will die a slow painful death...with our death, Damascus will be shooting themselves in the foot and begin experiencing pain of their own which will lead to their own march to extinction (no more funding from a now defunct archdiocese).

Or the former diocesan bishops will find a way out of this mess and the laity will withhold their money forcing Damascus to rescind this ridiculous mandate. AOCA will carry on as before and continue to grow as it works more closely with the OCA in order to unite at a some near point in the future.
I am hoping that your second alternative is the way it plays out.
 

ozgeorge

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Tamara said:
One of two things will happen, either Antioch will start controlling the Archdiocese with a heavier Arab hand once Met. Philip is gone, in which case, Damascus will see the end of growth over here as large numbers of Antiochians will leave for other jurisdictions due to the patriarchate's miscalculations. Finally, our Archdiocese will die a slow painful death...with our death, Damascus will be shooting themselves in the foot and begin experiencing pain of their own which will lead to their own march to extinction (no more funding from a now defunct archdiocese).

Or the former diocesan bishops will find a way out of this mess and the laity will withhold their money forcing Damascus to rescind this ridiculous mandate. AOCA will carry on as before and continue to grow as it works more closely with the OCA in order to unite at a some near point in the future.
There's more options Tamara.

1) The Hierarchs could take a vote of no confidence in Metropolitan Phillip and form their own Synod without him and declare themselves autocephalous and elect a new Primate (has happened before).

2) The Church of Antioch is held to ransom and be extorted by you lay people of the Archdiocese (as you suggest they do) and Antioch reluctantly grants an Autocephaly to the Archdiocese which no other Orthodox Church recognises (has happened before).

Personally, I see the most likely outsomce to be a combination of people leaving the AOANA for other jurisdictions together with some form of uncanonical "autocephaly" which means nothing outside of the Archdiocese and Antioch. And eventually, the deadwood will be cut off.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Irish Hermit said:
The real question before us now is why has the Exarchate in Paris (which placed itself under Constantinople during the decades of Communism) not obeyed Decree 362 and achieved rapprochement with its Mother Church in Moscow?
Is that the real question of this thread? Not according to the poll.
This thread is about whether the Antiocian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America should schism from it's Patriarchate and the rest of Orthodoxy and declare itself autocephalous. I think it should- what do you think?
For one thing, I doubt the OCA and those who recognize her autocephaly would shun the AOA if they did declare it.  That includes the Russian Church.

And since the problem seems to be emenating from places like Detroit rather than Damascus, I don't think it would be a schim from the Patriarchate.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
And since the problem seems to be emenating from places like Detroit rather than Damascus, I don't think it would be a schim from the Patriarchate.
What a shame. And I was hoping for a schism so I could tell people the AOAA has absolutely nothing to do with us.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
One of two things will happen, either Antioch will start controlling the Archdiocese with a heavier Arab hand once Met. Philip is gone, in which case, Damascus will see the end of growth over here as large numbers of Antiochians will leave for other jurisdictions due to the patriarchate's miscalculations. Finally, our Archdiocese will die a slow painful death...with our death, Damascus will be shooting themselves in the foot and begin experiencing pain of their own which will lead to their own march to extinction (no more funding from a now defunct archdiocese).

Or the former diocesan bishops will find a way out of this mess and the laity will withhold their money forcing Damascus to rescind this ridiculous mandate. AOCA will carry on as before and continue to grow as it works more closely with the OCA in order to unite at a some near point in the future.
There's more options Tamara.

1) The Hierarchs could take a vote of no confidence in Metropolitan Phillip and form their own Synod without him and declare themselves autocephalous and elect a new Primate (has happened before).
Is that what happened to EP Meletios?

2) The Church of Antioch is held to ransom and be extorted by you lay people of the Archdiocese (as you suggest they do) and Antioch reluctantly grants an Autocephaly to the Archdiocese which no other Orthodox Church recognises (has happened before).
Based on the EP's interpretation of canon 28, which no other Orthodox Church recognizes.

Personally, I see the most likely outsomce to be a combination of people leaving the AOANA for other jurisdictions together with some form of uncanonical "autocephaly" which means nothing outside of the Archdiocese and Antioch. And eventually, the deadwood will be cut off.
I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
And since the problem seems to be emenating from places like Detroit rather than Damascus, I don't think it would be a schim from the Patriarchate.
What a shame. And I was hoping for a schism so I could tell people the AOAA has absolutely nothing to do with us.
Don't let us stop you.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
And since the problem seems to be emenating from places like Detroit rather than Damascus, I don't think it would be a schim from the Patriarchate.
What a shame. And I was hoping for a schism so I could tell people the AOAA has absolutely nothing to do with us.
Don't let us stop you.
I'm afraid it has to be a real schism, otherwise it doesn't count, you're still my Brothers and Sisters in the Body and Blood of Christ.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
One of two things will happen, either Antioch will start controlling the Archdiocese with a heavier Arab hand once Met. Philip is gone, in which case, Damascus will see the end of growth over here as large numbers of Antiochians will leave for other jurisdictions due to the patriarchate's miscalculations. Finally, our Archdiocese will die a slow painful death...with our death, Damascus will be shooting themselves in the foot and begin experiencing pain of their own which will lead to their own march to extinction (no more funding from a now defunct archdiocese).

Or the former diocesan bishops will find a way out of this mess and the laity will withhold their money forcing Damascus to rescind this ridiculous mandate. AOCA will carry on as before and continue to grow as it works more closely with the OCA in order to unite at a some near point in the future.
There's more options Tamara.

1) The Hierarchs could take a vote of no confidence in Metropolitan Phillip and form their own Synod without him and declare themselves autocephalous and elect a new Primate (has happened before).
Nah, our bishops are not renegades. My bishop was a member of the patriarchate. The only reason he won't be transferred within the archdiocese is because he was secretary of the synod and was well-loved by them.

2) The Church of Antioch is held to ransom and be extorted by you lay people of the Archdiocese (as you suggest they do) and Antioch reluctantly grants an Autocephaly to the Archdiocese which no other Orthodox Church recognises (has happened before).
This could happen but I don't think autocephaly would be granted unless unity with the OCA was imminent. Arabs are deal-makers and the patriarchate is in survivalist mode so they are very practical.

Personally, I see the most likely outsomce to be a combination of people leaving the AOANA for other jurisdictions together with some form of uncanonical "autocephaly" which means nothing outside of the Archdiocese and Antioch. And eventually, the deadwood will be cut off.


I don't see an uncanonical group coming out of this mess. But I would agree many will leave for other jurisdictions.
I honestly think some will stay but the growth will end. So the archdiocese will eventually disappear.
 

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Fwiw, given all this discussion about Canon 28, 28 is a perfect number: 1+2+4+7+14 = 28

14 Autocephalous Orthodox Churches (OCA not included)
7 Ecumenical Councils
4 Original Patriarchates (including Rome)
2 Jesus Christ was God and Man
1 One God, Father Almighty
 

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I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
The only thing dying right now are most of the patriarchates in the east. But let's ignore that fact.

As Harry Coin (Sub-deacon Aristarhos) would say about the state of the church in Istanbul:

"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
 

ozgeorge

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Tamara said:
I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
The only thing dying right now are most of the patriarchates in the east. But let's ignore that fact.

As Harry Coin (Sub-deacon Aristarhos) would say about the state of the church in Istanbul:

"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
But they've kept the Orthodox Faith....and Orthodox Ecclessiology.....
Under extreme duress.....
 

ozgeorge

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Tamara said:
The Byzantine Empire is dead. When will the patriarchates in the east realize that?
You tell 'em Tamara! Go on, show them you guys mean business and declare yourselves autocephalous from your former Patriarchate! Shake off the Shackles of Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople and Alexandria!
PLEASE!
 

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I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
I'd agree.

Tamara said:
The only thing dying right now are most of the patriarchates in the east. But let's ignore that fact.
Yikes.  Not only over-generalized and patently wrong (heck, even Moscow is "in the east!"), but too triumphalistic for my tastes.

Tamara said:
As Harry Coin (Sub-deacon Aristarhos) would say about the state of the church in Istanbul:

"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
That's the spirit - spit on 'em while they're down.  While y'all are at it, you should get in a bit of strength exercise and aerobic workout - kick 'em too.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
The only thing dying right now are most of the patriarchates in the east. But let's ignore that fact.

As Harry Coin (Sub-deacon Aristarhos) would say about the state of the church in Istanbul:

"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
But they've kept the Orthodox Faith
yeah, and no one else has ::)
....
and Orthodox Ecclessiology.....
seems they have abandoned it for a poor imitation of the Vatican's
Under extreme duress.....
yes, the EP is the only one who has known duress. ::)
 

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ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
But I would agree many will leave for other jurisdictions.
No they won't.
People talk big, and the internet has an ability to amplify the disgruntled fringes, but nobody's going anywhere.
Respectfully, I disagree.  While I doubt there will be an implosion of the AOA as we know it, there is a lot of potential for jurisdiction shopping here.  An AOA mission had some issues a couple of years back and my Greek parish picked up a couple of families from that.  So who knows, maybe more people will realise that it is OK to worship and fellowship with people other than WASP, former Evangelicals.  Even if one to three families make this move in every "convert" parish of the AOA that adds up.  If even a few people start to understand that having "convert" parishes vs. "ethnic" parishes rather than pan-Orthodox parishes isn't a sustainable model for the Church, then perhaps some good can come out of this mess.   
 
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ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
I'd be careful throwing the term deadwood around.
The only thing dying right now are most of the patriarchates in the east. But let's ignore that fact.

As Harry Coin (Sub-deacon Aristarhos) would say about the state of the church in Istanbul:

"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
But they've kept the Orthodox Faith....and Orthodox Ecclessiology.....
Under extreme duress.....
Agreed and you were probably not there on the night of the anti Greek riot of Septmber 1955 so spare us your aspersions of other Orthodox and claiming a mantle of righteousness in a divisive manner.
 

ozgeorge

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cleveland said:
Tamara said:
"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
That's the spirit - spit on 'em while they're down.  While y'all are at it, you should get in a bit of strength exercise and aerobic workout - kick 'em too.
They're good at that. Let the American Antiochians go their own way. They don't need the rest of the Orthodox Church, they are self sufficient.
 

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Νεκτάριος said:
If even a few people start to understand that having "convert" parishes vs. "ethnic" parishes rather than pan-Orthodox parishes isn't a sustainable model for the Church, then perhaps some good can come out of this mess. 
You redeemed an otherwise sad thread. This is an excellent post and I pray it is Gods will!
 

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ozgeorge said:
cleveland said:
Tamara said:
"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
That's the spirit - spit on 'em while they're down.  While y'all are at it, you should get in a bit of strength exercise and aerobic workout - kick 'em too.
They're good at that. Let the American Antiochians go their own way. They don't need the rest of the Orthodox Church, they are self sufficient.
We need neither a nanny in the Phanar nor one down under to meddle in our affairs.  We will be quite able to deal with this ourselves.
 

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Νεκτάριος said:
ozgeorge said:
Tamara said:
But I would agree many will leave for other jurisdictions.
No they won't.
People talk big, and the internet has an ability to amplify the disgruntled fringes, but nobody's going anywhere.
Respectfully, I disagree.  While I doubt there will be an implosion of the AOA as we know it, there is a lot of potential for jurisdiction shopping here.  An AOA mission had some issues a couple of years back and my Greek parish picked up a couple of families from that.  So who knows, maybe more people will realise that it is OK to worship and fellowship with people other than WASP, former Evangelicals.  Even if one to three families make this move in every "convert" parish of the AOA that adds up.  If even a few people start to understand that having "convert" parishes vs. "ethnic" parishes rather than pan-Orthodox parishes isn't a sustainable model for the Church, then perhaps some good can come out of this mess.   
What about ethnic converts?
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
We need neither a nanny in the Phanar nor one down under to meddle in our affairs.  We will be quite able to deal with this ourselves.
Oh I know! So please, by all means declare yourselves autocephalous. Go on, show some gumption and put your money where your mouth is. "Oh we don't need the Patriarchates"- well prove it, cut yourselves off from them. Otherwise stop bothering to make big claims like a rooster who thinks the sun rises at the command of his crowing.

 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
ialmisry said:
We need neither a nanny in the Phanar nor one down under to meddle in our affairs.  We will be quite able to deal with this ourselves.
Oh I know! So please, by all means declare yourselves autocephalous. Go on, show some gumption and put your money where your mouth is. "Oh we don't need the Patriarchates"- well prove it, cut yourselves off from them. Otherwise stop bothering to make big claims like a rooster who thinks the sun rises at the command of his crowing.
Like this?
If Constantinople was not given that prerogative by canon 28, how was she able to grant autocephalies and patriarchal dignities to the Churches of Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Czech Lands and Slovakia, Poland and Albania? Under the provision of which canon did Constantinople give the right of jurisdiction over the remaining of Africa to the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 2002?
http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

And I'll repeat, I notice tht he omits Greece from his list (and adds Georgia). The rest in the Balkans, except in part Serbia, took autocephaly, and Poland and Czech and Slovakia were torn from Russia.

The Pope of Alexandria has been Pope "of All Africa" for some time, at least since before I first met him in the 80's.  And his jurisdication has been all of Africa since the 1920's.  Do keep up.

Albania actually got its start here, in Boston: Greek priests would bury Albanias, since they were nationalists, i.e. refused Hellenization and spoke Albanian, and therefore "excommunicate."  Btw, I've heard claims that Fan Noli also worked for the estblishment of Demotic, know anything about that?

Metropolitan Phillip begins his argument with an entirely anti-theological distinction  of the holy canons into three categories 1) dogmatic, 2) contextual and, 3) “dead”.

            I would like to know in which of these three categories, following his reasoning, His Eminence would classify the canons of the Ecumenical Councils that demarcate the jurisdictions of the ancient Patriarchates. Are they “contextual”—subject, as it is, to change? Does His Eminence believe that in this way he serves the unity among Orthodox, by subjugating the holy and divine canons under the circumstantial judgment of some bishop?

            Based on the above distinction, and although he accepts that canon 28 of the 4th Ecumenical Council is not “dead” (since there is so much debate about it), he affirms that indeed it gives certain prerogatives to the Ecumenical Patriarch, on the other hand, however, he claims that this happened for secular and political reasons that have nothing to do with today’s state of affairs. Implicitly and yet all too clearly, Metropolitan Phillip implies that the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch can be doubted. The question then is: does His Eminence know of any Church whose status (Patriarchal or Autocephalous) were not decided according to the historical conditions that they were current at the time? Or, does His Eminence know of any Church that has received its status on the basis of theological reasons exclusively? Every administrative decision of an Ecumenical Council is equally respected to perpetuity together with its dogmatic decisions. Imagine the consequences for the Orthodox Church if we begin to re-evalutate the status of each local Church!

            The correct interpretation of canon 28 is considered by His Eminence as “novelty”, by invoking only sources of the 20th century, while it has been scientifically established already by the late Metropolitan of Sardeis Maximos the uninterrupted application of the canon in question during the history of the Church of Constantinople.

If the prior quote is an indication of the "scientific establishment," I'm not impressed.  But at least he didn't call Canon 28 "famous."

I wonder if he has any objection to Philip's violation of Apostolic Canon 34.  Perhaps not.  Abolishing a Synod doesn't seem to be something that would perturb a bit.
 

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ialmisry said:
yeah, and no one else has ::)

seems they have abandoned it for a poor imitation of the Vatican's

yes, the EP is the only one who has known duress. ::)
Not the point; the point is why spit on the EP while you're having your issues?  There's no point in doing so.  We're not doing it to you; why do it to our Patriarch?

ialmisry said:
We need neither a nanny in the Phanar
Un-necessary.

ialmisry said:
nor one down under to meddle in our affairs.  We will be quite able to deal with this ourselves.
I never knew you thought so highly of ozgeorge!

ISTM all the anti-EP comments distract from the discussion of the real issues and needed solutions for the AOA in this country.
 

ialmisry

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cleveland said:
ialmisry said:
yeah, and no one else has ::)

seems they have abandoned it for a poor imitation of the Vatican's

yes, the EP is the only one who has known duress. ::)
Not the point; the point is why spit on the EP while you're having your issues?  There's no point in doing so.  We're not doing it to you; why do it to our Patriarch?

ialmisry said:
We need neither a nanny in the Phanar
Un-necessary.

ialmisry said:
nor one down under to meddle in our affairs.  We will be quite able to deal with this ourselves.
I never knew you thought so highly of ozgeorge!

ISTM all the anti-EP comments distract from the discussion of the real issues and needed solutions for the AOA in this country.
Where did the EP come up?  Was it here?

ozgeorge said:
Who thinks the Self-Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese of North America (SRAOANA) should break Communion with it's Patriarchate and all the other Patriarchates?
If anyone's wondering about the title of this thread, it's based on this old classic song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVdnqEyToqg
or here?
ialmisry said:
serb1389 said:
I only put yes b/c it seems like a foregone conclusion by many on the thread.  I personally don't WANT them to, nor do I think they SHOULD, but the way people are talking, you might as well. 
Actually, if what you say is true, eventually it would be breaking communion with the Metropolitan, and restoring it to the Patriarch of Antioch.

ozgeorge said:
recent convert said:
Perhaps if the Metropolitan would politely rebuke his brother for the atrocious pro Islamic article in the Word magazine (fall 2008) that would begin the healing
Oh, so THATS what its all about?
Gee, and I thought it was something minor.
::)

I wish you guys would just leave.
I thought you were the one who abhored schism? ???
ozgeorge said:
recent convert said:
Who are you to tell me to leave the church? The concerns re the bishops and hierarchy authority have been presented and there was some previous distress over the article mentioned (but it was preferable to let it pass). Yes, while jingoism against other religions should be censored, propaganda  for them is also problematic. Sorry if the concerns of some people re hierarchy rule and questionable theological values being promoted offends you.
Oh it doesn't offend me. I just think the Church is better off without you guys.
Just for that, I think we should rush to the EP's omophorion.

Btw, in the spirit of the poll, I didn't vote.
 

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Tamara said:
"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
Is that a comment on the church in Constantinople or the size of your social halls? :p
 

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Veniamin said:
Tamara said:
"The entire bunch of them wouldn't fill one of our larger social halls."
Is that a comment on the church in Constantinople or the size of your social halls? :p
Noting wrong with large social halls!  ;D
 

ozgeorge

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cleveland said:
the real issues and needed solutions for the AOA in this country.
I keep telling them: "Please, by all means declare yourselves autocephalous. Go on, show some gumption and put your money where your mouth is. "Oh we don't need the Patriarchates"- well prove it, cut yourselves off from them. Otherwise stop bothering to make big claims like a rooster who thinks the sun rises at the command of his crowing."


But they just want to crow.
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
cleveland said:
the real issues and needed solutions for the AOA in this country.
I keep telling them: "Please, by all means declare yourselves autocephalous. Go on, show some gumption and put your money where your mouth is. "Oh we don't need the Patriarchates"- well prove it, cut yourselves off from them. Otherwise stop bothering to make big claims like a rooster who thinks the sun rises at the command of his crowing."
Already answered:
ialmisry said:
But they just want to crow.
Like this revisionism?
The Ecumenical Patriarchate neither had nor has territorial claims against the sister Orthodox Churches. That truth is testified by the fact that, although the Patriarchates of the East were virtually destroyed during the difficult times of the 17th and 18th centuries, nevertheless, the Patriarchate of Constantinople was taking the care to have a Patriarch elected for those Patriarchates, supporting their primates in every possible way.

The submission of the diaspora to the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not mean either Hellenization or violation of the canonical order, because it is only in this way that both the letter and the spirit of the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils is respected. The Mother Church knows, however, that such a submission is difficult to be accomplished under the present historical conditions. For this reason, and by employing the principle of economy, it was suggested and it has now become accepted in Pan-Orthodox level, that there will be local Pan-Orthodox Episcopal Assemblies in the diaspora (like SCOBA in the US). The principle of presidency is followed, namely the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate presides over these Episcopal Assemblies in order to preserve the necessary element of canonicity.

As you surely know, last October the Ecumenical Patriarchate summoned in Constantinople a Synaxis of the Primates of the Orthodox Churches. The Primates accepted the proposal of Patriarch Bartholomew to move ahead with the Pan-Orthodox preparatory meetings, within 2009, so that the Holy and Great Synod of the Orthodox Church take place as soon as possible. For the record, please note that this decision was reached thanks to the concession on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which accepted that the Autonomous Churches will no longer be invited as to avoid the thorny problem of the Church of Estonia in the relations between Constantinople and Moscow.

With regards to the United States, the submission to the First Throne of the Church, that is, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate is not only fitting with the American society and mentality but also it opens up the horizons of possibilities for this much-promising region, which is capable of becoming an example of Pan-Orthodox unity and witness.

The Mother Church of Constantinople safeguards for the Orthodox Church in America those provisions that are needed for further  progress and maturity in Christ.

Why don't they submit to the Vatican, and take their Ultramontanism straight?
 
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