• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Make all Bishops of current Dioceses Metropolitans?

Aristobolus

Member
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
138
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
In sorting throught the situation in the Antiochian Archdiocese, I would welcome comment on a possible solution not only to the situation in the Antiochian Archdiocese, but also to the N. American context in general.  First with respect to the Antiochian Archdiocese, in order to save face, the Holy Synod in Damascus could reaffirm its February 28th decision to make all bishops "auxiliaries"; but also could elevate the current bishops to Metropolitans.  Thus the Antiochian Metropolitans would sit on the Holy Synod in Damscus, and be on an equal par with their Middle Eastern Brother Metropolitans.  Furthermore, if the OCA and other jurisdictions followed suit, then we in this country would all be on level ground in order to go to the next step of unifying into a North American Church in the future (albeit with various Metropolias). 

From a narrow Antiochian perspective, this would relieve the burden of sorting out the auxiliary issue (the only auxiliary bishops would be those attached to help the Metropolitans), and would help preserve intact the legacy of our Holy Hierarchs (who have all done wonderful works for the Church). 

From a broader perspective, these elevations would more smoothly facilitate a future merger of our jurisdictions.  Otherwise we will forever have the barrier of the Greeks having mainly Metropolitans, and the others having Bishops/Auxiliary Bishops (even though many of the latter tend to as many if not more parishes than these Metropolitans both here and abroad).  If not put into place, a future merger would be as complicated as trying to put together various armies, some of whom having many Generals; while others have only one. 
 

SDMPNS

High Elder
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
540
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
FLORIDA
The bad news about that would be that the "Metropolitans" would be more autonomous and would thumb their noses at an "Archbishop" as that is the case in the GOA now. Its like trying to herd cats to get them to agree on anything.
 

monkvasyl

High Elder
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Messages
652
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
70
Location
Roslindale, MA
Among the Slavs a metropolitan is higher than an archbishop.  So that would not work for the OCA, the Russians and the Ukrainians.
 

scamandrius

Merarches
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
9,407
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Location
Omaha
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver
Aristobolus said:
From a broader perspective, these elevations would more smoothly facilitate a future merger of our jurisdictions.  Otherwise we will forever have the barrier of the Greeks having mainly Metropolitans, and the others having Bishops/Auxiliary Bishops (even though many of the latter tend to as many if not more parishes than these Metropolitans both here and abroad).  If not put into place, a future merger would be as complicated as trying to put together various armies, some of whom having many Generals; while others have only one. 
Not necessarily.  What will have to be resolved and only with great painstaking effort and with a lot of ego checking is the fact that there will often be two or even three metropolitans in one area or even city.  Right now there are several situations where a hierarchs of multiple jurisdictions are in the same city (e.g. Pittsburgh).  If the bishops are elevated to Metropolitan rank, then that is only going to increase the tensions and further prolong any kind of North American unity.

Also, I don't think there is a need to make Metropolitans out of the current AOCA bishops.  Granted that such a move could do much to ease the one man rule which is currently emanating out of Englewood, but America is still a "mission" field and it would be far better if we had one man at the helm, for now, to directly report to the Antiochian Synod and the Patriarch.
 

SDMPNS

High Elder
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
540
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
FLORIDA
The one man rule from Englewood needs to end and end soon..
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,968
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Aristobolus said:
In sorting throught the situation in the Antiochian Archdiocese, I would welcome comment on a possible solution not only to the situation in the Antiochian Archdiocese, but also to the N. American context in general.  First with respect to the Antiochian Archdiocese, in order to save face, the Holy Synod in Damascus could reaffirm its February 28th decision to make all bishops "auxiliaries"; but also could elevate the current bishops to Metropolitans.  Thus the Antiochian Metropolitans would sit on the Holy Synod in Damscus, and be on an equal par with their Middle Eastern Brother Metropolitans.  Furthermore, if the OCA and other jurisdictions followed suit, then we in this country would all be on level ground in order to go to the next step of unifying into a North American Church in the future (albeit with various Metropolias). 

From a narrow Antiochian perspective, this would relieve the burden of sorting out the auxiliary issue (the only auxiliary bishops would be those attached to help the Metropolitans), and would help preserve intact the legacy of our Holy Hierarchs (who have all done wonderful works for the Church). 

From a broader perspective, these elevations would more smoothly facilitate a future merger of our jurisdictions.  Otherwise we will forever have the barrier of the Greeks having mainly Metropolitans, and the others having Bishops/Auxiliary Bishops (even though many of the latter tend to as many if not more parishes than these Metropolitans both here and abroad).  If not put into place, a future merger would be as complicated as trying to put together various armies, some of whom having many Generals; while others have only one. 
Why doesn't the Patriarchate just go back to canonical order, with dicoese bishops, reign it her metropolitan, and respect the autonomy it gave the Holy Synod here?

Metropolitans were make too many chiefs, and complicate matters.

The restoration of diocesan bishops as REAL bishops would do ALL Orthodoxy, including the Mother Churches, a load of good.
 

scamandrius

Merarches
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
9,407
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Location
Omaha
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver
SDMPNS said:
The one man rule from Englewood needs to end and end soon..
And it just may, according to some things I have heard from someone who is  very close to the Metropolitan who thinks that the Holy Synod may seriously reign in Metropolitan PHILIP. 
 

SDMPNS

High Elder
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
540
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
FLORIDA
And it just may, according to some things I have heard from someone who is  very close to the Metropolitan who thinks that the Holy Synod may seriously reign in Metropolitan PHILIP. 
You just made my day!  This is going to make TheAntiochian.Com look bad..we need to psray for the Metropolitan and the Holy Synod...if we made all of the Bishops metropolitans we could make the currect problems look even worse...
However with Bishops like Mark,Basil with Bishops like Met.Jonah we could have a wonderful future
 

Aristobolus

Member
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
138
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Issues with pride, lack of respect, etc. all are present in any configuration of Bishops.  However, once again how will there ever be unity in this continent in the current order unless most everyone comes underneath the Greeks?  How do you merge the plethora of Bishops in the OCA/AOA/Etc. with the Metropolitans of the GOA? 
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,158
Reaction score
409
Points
83
Age
41
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Aristobolus said:
Issues with pride, lack of respect, etc. all are present in any configuration of Bishops.  However, once again how will there ever be unity in this continent in the current order unless most everyone comes underneath the Greeks?  How do you merge the plethora of Bishops in the OCA/AOA/Etc. with the Metropolitans of the GOA? 
My opinion: the merger would be quite easy.  Titles & responsibility would remain for the current generation, and then as the church settles and consecrates new hierarchs within the structure to replace the ones who were 'grandfathered in,' then the titles will match their diocesan title.  So, for instance, if there are 5-7 Metropolises and a dozen or two Diocese, then the current crop of Metropolitans go to these Metropolises; however, upon their retirement/death/removal, new bishops will be elected to fill their positions, based on the best available candidates.

Why would the transition have to be difficult, unless one is worried about their pride?
 

SDMPNS

High Elder
Joined
Mar 14, 2009
Messages
540
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
FLORIDA
Great point Cleveland....and spread the Bishops around...as St. Ignatius wrote about each large city would have a Bishop...rather than have a diocese cover 5-6 states...
 

Second Chance

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
8,025
Reaction score
4
Points
36
Age
76
Location
South Carolina
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the South (OCA)
I think a better idea would be to use the existing bishops as metropolitans so that the country is covered sufficiently. You could then assign newly ordained bishops and/or mitred archpriests to city-level dioceses.
 

Fr. George

Stratopedarches
Staff member
Administrator
Joined
Oct 5, 2004
Messages
22,158
Reaction score
409
Points
83
Age
41
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Second Chance said:
I think a better idea would be to use the existing bishops as metropolitans so that the country is covered sufficiently.
Um, why would they have to be Metropolitans to cover the country sufficiently?  Or are you subscribing to the "Plain Bishop = No Bishop; Metropolitan/Archbishop = Real Bishop" nightmare?

Second Chance said:
You could then assign newly ordained bishops
We actually have enough bishops/archbishops/metropolitans within the ranks in America to have 1 bishop for 40-50 parishes; since the distances would be cut down, those parishes would see their bishop quite frequently. (Actually, we'd need maybe 2-3 more bishops, tops.)

Second Chance said:
and/or mitred archpriests to city-level dioceses. 
Bad idea.  I don't even know where Slavic churches got these distinctions from, anyway (mitred vs. unmitered Archpriests, etc.).
 

Second Chance

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
8,025
Reaction score
4
Points
36
Age
76
Location
South Carolina
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the South (OCA)
^
School districts do not build schools (at least they should not) to meet existing student load, they build to satisfy anticipated demand, in the context of geographic location (proximity).

If the idea is to maintain the present level of congregants and congregations, you do have almost the right number of bishops. If the idea is to organize for the future, no.

Finally the idea of mitred archpriests is to use our senior, experienced and talented married clergy more efficiently in quasi-bishop or "auxiliary" bishop role. My hope is that once people get used to married clergy wearing mitres and sitting on the bishops chair, they will warm up to the idea of finally trying out a return to the ancient church practice.
 
Top