- Aug 1, 2010
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You evaded my simple argument, your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:bogdan said:The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?
To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...
As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.
This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.
Alfred Persson said:Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.
7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!
--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)
So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?
Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.
Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.
The "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
(Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)