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Alfred Persson

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bogdan said:
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Alfred Persson said:
Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?
You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
(Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

 

FormerReformer

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Interesting how you use a passage that has nothing to do with Icons to condemn them.

The funny thing, by that passage you show the reasoning behind our veneration of icons.  Which is greater, the icon or the image that icon depicts?  The icon would not be worthy of veneration were not the idea behind the icon (the Incarnate God, the Man who was God) worthy of worship.  Icons of saints would not be worthy of veneration were our saints not icons of Christ. 

Blasphemy against the gold is blasphemy against the temple which sanctifies the gold.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Alfred Persson said:
Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?
You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
(Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)
In the end, what does it matter? You have no authority with us.
 

Alfred Persson

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FormerReformer said:
Interesting how you use a passage that has nothing to do with Icons to condemn them.

The funny thing, by that passage you show the reasoning behind our veneration of icons.  Which is greater, the icon or the image that icon depicts?  The icon would not be worthy of veneration were not the idea behind the icon (the Incarnate God, the Man who was God) worthy of worship.  Icons of saints would not be worthy of veneration were our saints not icons of Christ.  

Blasphemy against the gold is blasphemy against the temple which sanctifies the gold.
Your distinction between 2 dimensional icons, and 3 dimensional images fails, the text forbids EVERY kind of ICON:
BGT  Deuteronomy 4:16 μὴ ἀνομήσητε καὶ ποιήσητε ὑμῖν ἑαυτοῖς γλυπτὸν ὁμοίωμα πᾶσαν εἰκόνα ὁμοίωμα ἀρσενικοῦ ἢ θηλυκοῦ (Deu 4:16 BGT)
LXE  Deuteronomy 4:16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure, the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

Your distinction between honor and worship, is irrelevant, God forbade making any sort of icon of Himself, He doesn't care what is done with it, He forbade them all regardless of use:

15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 the likeness of any beast of those that are on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird which flies under heaven,
18 the likeness of any reptile which creeps on the earth, the likeness of any fish of those which are in the waters under the earth;
19 and lest having looked up to the sky, and having seen the sun and the moon and the stars, and all the heavenly bodies, thou shouldest go astray and worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God has distributed to all the nations under heaven.
(Deu 4:15-19 LXE)

You argument we can image Christ Incarnate is bogus as any kind of image of God in the form of a man, is prohibited.

UNLESS you deny 1)Jesus is God; 2)He came in human flesh.


Your argument the Jews didn't see the similitude of God but we did see Jesus' incarnate body, is bogus as Moses saw the similitude of God and still  rejected any kind of icon of it be made:

KJV  Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Num 12:8 KJV)

LXE  Exodus 33:23 And I will remove my hand, and then shalt thou see my back parts; but my face shall not appear to thee.
(Exo 33:23 LXE)

Your fine distinctions of honor not worship, 2 dimensional not three dimensional, are mere sophistry, you ARE violating both the spirit and the letter of the law, no doubt about it.

The judge of all the earth will not treat your sophistry any differently than He did the sophistry of these:

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
(Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

Like you they argued "we really aren't violating God's command: it isn't really (an image or worship) or the gold of the temple.



 

Alfred Persson

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PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Alfred Persson said:
Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?
You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
(Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)
In the end, what does it matter? You have no authority with us.
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any. I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.

 

bogdan

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... those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!
 

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Alfred, your opinions about Scripture are irrelevant, since you are not a member of the Church which produced them.
 

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Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.

 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
Do we not? Is it not our duty, as Christians (especially as Orthodox Christians) to lead any stray sheep back into God's fold? Granted, Alfred has come into our forum claiming the want (need?) to proselytize and I do agree that it is he who should be convincing us of his POV, but should we not also try to convince him of our POV since I believe that Alfred is here as a cry of help to us. I think he is trying his best to dissuade himself of the Orthodox Church and I don't think it is working very well on his part. His clinging to his his view of Sola Scriptura (for it is indeed his view as I know plenty of other Protestants who ascribe to different views of SS) because it is his security blanket, if he were to let go and drop his security blanket he is afraid that he would be swept into this different world that is so out of his comfort level. Unfortunately, many Protestants fall prey to this same thing, they try so hard to break out of their comfort levels by doing different things such as food mission work, but when it comes to experiencing God in a different church they draw the line and refuse to break past this part of their comfort claiming that they do not want to fall prey to heresy not realizing that if they just let go of their security blankets and Fully Rely On God (to use a Protestant gimmick) that they would be opened up to whole, new, amazing, and fulfilling world where God is always present in our daily lives.  
 

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Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf, blind, mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation? 
 

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dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that? What would you say to those who cite this text, that you are defiling the Temple of God:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)



I have documented from the Talmud, and the Bible, Jesus and the apostles had very similar eschatological beliefs, which resolve the ambiguity some suppose is in the Bible teaching on these things.

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)


I proved it here in this thread. Not one of you have addressed any of that proof.

We may as well discuss your cigarette smoking, I bet you treat that issue directly, unlike scripture. I bet you won't focus on my poor attendance at Church in defense of your cigarette smoking, will you?

You will not, because its absurd to focus on my poor attendance at church, as though it is relevant, material and competent to your cigarette smoking.

Its equally absurd you focus on me and ignore what the Scripture says.

In the day of Judgment, God won't judge you treated HIS TRUTH correctly.

I am certain God won't mention my poor church attendance, when discussing these things with you----the way you focused on my poor church attendance, and NOT His Word the Bible, on the Day when God will discuss all  these things with you:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:16 KJV)

 

dcommini

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Alfred Persson said:
dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?
That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm
 

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dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?
That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm
No, it hasn't, hence your inability to copy paste an example.

AND I note you can treat an issue directly, when its NOT the truth of God's Word...

You prove yourself guilty of inconsistency...you will discuss smoking directly, BUT not Scripture texts I propose teach a particular idea...

THAT also could be cited against you in the Day of Judgment...you thereby document you consider the issue of smoking of far greater weight than the ideas being expressed in God's Word the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2Co 5:10 KJV)


AND there are many who would say your smoking is a sin far greater than my poor church attendance:

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:17 KJV)


Following your own logic, nothing you say should be discussed, rather we must focus on your cigarette smoking. If you protest, you are again guity of
inconsistency, not wanting to be treated by the same standard you treat others.

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)



Keep talking, your "sin" is just piling up for that Day.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (Mat 23:32 KJV)
 

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Alfred Persson said:
dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
dcommini said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.
THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


Alfred Persson said:
I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

Alfred Persson said:
If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

Alfred Persson said:
But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?
That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm
No, it hasn't, hence your inability to copy paste an example.

AND I note you can treat an issue directly, when its NOT the truth of God's Word...

You are are guilty of inconsistency...you will discuss smoking, BUT not the texts I propose teach a particular idea...

THAT also could be cited against you in the Day of Judgment...you thereby document you consider the issue of smoking of far greater weight than the ideas being expressed in God's Word the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(2Co 5:10 KJV)
Why, Alfred do you refuse to even look back at the pages of yours posts? I already told you that I was not doing your work for you. Others have done as you have asked yet you turn a blind eye! Why should I then do the same thing and expect different results? To do so would be foolhardy! Why do we need to keep going back and showing you your wrong when you don't believe what is right in front of your eyes? That is not evasion on our part, rather yours.

I have discussed what Scripture you try to teach us, we all have. You, however can only fall back on an argument as old as time itself, "No, you're wrong because I say you are!" Which is exactly what you are doing when you try to force your view of Sola Scriptura on us. Yes, it is your view for if you do research you will find that there are very different views on what Sola Scriptura is and each pertaining to that person own interpretation. Your interpretation differs from our own so what good is it to discuss Scripture with you when you do not even try to see things from our point of view? You already have your mind made up before you even start discussing anything instead of actually trying to understand what it is we teach! I refuse to play your petty game by your rules and because of this you say I can not prove you wrong when, playing by your rules I did prove you wrong, yet you refused to see.

Now, please tell me, why should we continue to entertain your discussions (although I use that term loosely) when it is evident that you are not willing to see the Truth we have given you. (I know you're are going to try to say because we have not given you any Truth, but everybody here knows that is bullocks (including yourself, Alfred))

Stop running from the path God has set before you, Alfred, lest He do to you as He did to Jonah. We all know that you yearn for the Orthodox faith, but your fear of truly experiencing God and all He has to offer is what is keeping you away. Come home, Alfred, and ease your suffering.
 

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dcommini said:
Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
Yes, we focus on your cigarette smoking because to defile the Temple of God with nicotine and other poisons is to separate yourself from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded not to defile our body, to show you what you are doing is wrong. God does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right about smoking to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

Remember, it is written:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

AND

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)
 

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Alfred Persson said:
AND there are many who would say your smoking is a sin far greater than my poor church attendance:

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:17 KJV)
Interesting your use of a verse prohibiting attacks the on unity of the Church to attack smoking.  It is usages of Scripture in attacking and condemning things that were never mentioned in the text that is the reason I quit attending Evangelical churches.  Scripture taken out of context can mean anything.

Following your own logic, nothing you say should be discussed, rather we must focus on your cigarette smoking.
Interesting as well that you see smoke and automatically assume "cigarette", when he clearly stated pipe, as well as stating linking to the various Surgeon General reports on pipe smoking that show the harm is minimal (there's no safe form of tobacco, true, but there's no safe form of meat, vegetable, or in our day and age, air).
 

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12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
(1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
20 "These are the things which defile a man,
(Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.

I didn't use will power to quit, I used desire. Whenever I desired a cigarette, I focused on the oxygen tank smoking would force me to carry with me to breathe.

The desire to be "oxygen tank free" was greater than my desire to smoke.

AND for the first few days I used nicotine patches to get over my physical addiction to smoking...but only for a few days.

The desire to NOT carry an oxygen tank was far greater, and still is, than any desire to smoke...so quitting was actually quite easy.



 

dcommini

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Alfred Persson said:
dcommini said:
Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  
Yes, we focus on your cigarette smoking because to defile the Temple of God with nicotine and other poisons is to separate yourself from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded not to defile your body, to show you what you are doing is wrong. God does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right about smoking to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation? 

Remember, it is written:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)
Too bad I don't smoke cigarettes. If you would actually read my post you would see that I say I smoke a pipe and even had links to show that pipe smoking can lead to a longer life than non-smokers. How, then can you say that I am defiling my body? If this is how you misread posts, one can only imagine how you misread Scripture. Have I said that smoking is right? No I have not, do I need to convince myself that smoking is right? I do not. As it stands the evidence is very one sided when it comes to smoking of any kind and the harmful effect supposedly caused thereof. So, since it is very inconclusive that smoking a pipe is indeed defiling my body, how can I be going against God's command?
 

dcommini

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Alfred Persson said:
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
(1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
20 "These are the things which defile a man,
(Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.
Glad we agree on cigarette smoking, but can we please discuss pipe smoking? Or are you going to remain ignorant of what I said - like you remain ignorant of what God said - to further you poor arguments?
 
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