Make God's path straight by being born again

genesisone

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Alfred Persson said:
genesisone said:
Alfred Persson said:
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
(Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?
Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .
Rather than an essay, a born again would simply quote this:

15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(Rom 8:15-16 NKJ)

We have the simple knowing God is our Father, as a child does his earthly father...Of course the child doesn't know all his earthly father does, but on a very real level, that intellectual apprehension isn't the knowing that is important to him.

Couldn't you condense his thought into a paragraph?
Alfred, we Orthodox would instantly agree with you that "knowing" in this context goes far beyond intellectual apprehension. But it seemed to me that you were questioning what you may have heard that the Orthodox may also say that we cannot know God. Since you asked for it - and what will follow is NOT an official Orthodox document - it is NOT an original source. It is a very simplistic summary:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gregory_Palamas
Addressing the question of how it is possible for humans to have knowledge of a transcendent and unknowable God, he drew a distinction between knowing God in his essence (in Greek, ουσία) and knowing God in his energies (in Greek, ενέργειαι). He maintained the Orthodox doctrine that it remains impossible to know God in his essence (God in himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who he is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals himself to humanity. In doing so, he made reference to the Cappadocian Fathers and other early Christian writers.
It's another one of those annoying paradoxes in Orthodoxy: that God is both knowable and unknowable. You've noticed that we like that sort of thing around here :D.
 

Marc1152

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theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth. However, he is willing to put a toe into our pool a bit.

Alfred has been through some suffering and thereby a field ready for a seed to grow.

  Fr. Seraphim Rose on Suffering

http://solzemli.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/fr-seraphim-rose-on-suffering/

Why do men learn through pain and suffering, and not through pleasure and happiness? Very simply, because pleasure and happiness accustom one to satisfaction with the things given in this world, whereas pain and suffering drive one to seek a more profound happiness beyond the limitations of this world. I am at this moment in some pain, and I call on the Name of Jesus—not necessarily to relieve the pain, but that Jesus, in Whom alone we may transcend this world, may be with me during it, and His will be done in me. But in pleasure I do not call on Him; I am content then with what I have, and I think I need no more. And why is a philosophy of pleasure untenable?—because pleasure is impermanent and unreliable, and pain is inevitable. In pain and suffering Christ speaks to us, and thus God is kind to give them to us, yes, and evil too—for in all of these we glimpse something of what must lie beyond, if there really exists what our hearts most deeply desire.
 

Alfred Persson

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genesisone said:
Alfred Persson said:
genesisone said:
Alfred Persson said:
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
(Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?
Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .
Rather than an essay, a born again would simply quote this:

15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
(Rom 8:15-16 NKJ)

We have the simple knowing God is our Father, as a child does his earthly father...Of course the child doesn't know all his earthly father does, but on a very real level, that intellectual apprehension isn't the knowing that is important to him.

Couldn't you condense his thought into a paragraph?
Alfred, we Orthodox would instantly agree with you that "knowing" in this context goes far beyond intellectual apprehension. But it seemed to me that you were questioning what you may have heard that the Orthodox may also say that we cannot know God. Since you asked for it - and what will follow is NOT an official Orthodox document - it is NOT an original source. It is a very simplistic summary:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gregory_Palamas
Addressing the question of how it is possible for humans to have knowledge of a transcendent and unknowable God, he drew a distinction between knowing God in his essence (in Greek, ουσία) and knowing God in his energies (in Greek, ενέργειαι). He maintained the Orthodox doctrine that it remains impossible to know God in his essence (God in himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who he is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals himself to humanity. In doing so, he made reference to the Cappadocian Fathers and other early Christian writers.
It's another one of those annoying paradoxes in Orthodoxy: that God is both knowable and unknowable. You've noticed that we like that sort of thing around here :D.
I would agree with that, sounds right to me. Its in God's personal relationship Transcendent Deity condescends to have with us, that we know Him. But by God's Spirit we realize, know, this relationship of Father to child is real, and not superficial.

Thanks for the explanation, that worked for me.
 

tuesdayschild

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Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.
In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.
 

Marc1152

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tuesdayschild said:
Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.
In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.
Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.
 

tuesdayschild

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Marc1152 said:
tuesdayschild said:
Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.
In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.
Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.
:eek:  :-X
 

JLatimer

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Alfred, I'd like to finish our conversation on John 6, but I want to make sure there's no jumping around so that points get lost. Join me if you wish: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30861.msg486444.html#msg486444
 

bogdan

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Marc1152 said:
tuesdayschild said:
Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.
In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.
Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.
After he said he either disliked, or had discomfort, or something about the Cross, I lean toward that possibility as well.
 
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Alfred Persson said:
recent convert said:
Alfred Persson said:
recent convert said:
Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.
Its called exegesis, and not rationalization or compartmentalization:

Peter and the disciples ("we") knew exactly what Jesus meant:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
(Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


AND "not discerning the Lord's body" cannot mean "not discerning the bread is the Lord's literal body" as Paul says we do this in "remembrance"

24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance ( ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.

We would NOT eat the bread "remebering Christ's body" if it is Christ's body, then we are "experiencing it."

Experiencing is not "remembering."
This is all your semantics in trying to redefine the faith on your terms and thinking you can do a snow job on those of us with a more simple faith and it will not work. You never did answer my earlier posts on the basics of the faith and you go on & on in your pride to redefine what the Lord told us & how we are to keep His faith but say, "I read the word of God and you do not" no matter what others say. Well the earliest Christians probably just knew Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, the implied faith of the Nicene creed, the 2 great commands, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, the Lord's prayer, were baptised, confessed sins, & partook of the holy Eucharist and did not arrogate the faith that is held according to holy tradition.
Yes, semantics, the science of the meaning of words, and not according to the tradition of men.

A simple faith accepts God wrote the Bible to be understood by its readers...that He didn't require immersion in rituals that didn't exist till the 6th century.
The sacraments are not "rituals" but the fulfillment of the template of worship given to Moses in which the blood sacrifice has been abolished by the Eucharist. I have heard that you have had some bad times according to another poster and I am sorry for that but many here have too. It is not everything you post that may be objectionable but you have often treated us as heretics before probing further. Personally, I doubt many of us here feel most other Christians are "heretics' but must be vigilant of our faith & discern heretical beliefs without condemning an innocent person of heresy.
 

theistgal

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Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose.
Yes, and he specifically said he was planning to post refutations of it as soon as he got it.

I doubt he will read it any differently than he has read St. John Chrysostom, Gregory Palamas, or for that matter the Scriptures themselves.

But - hope springs eternal!  ;D
 

Marc1152

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bogdan said:
Marc1152 said:
tuesdayschild said:
Marc1152 said:
theistgal said:
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.
In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.
Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.
After he said he either disliked, or had discomfort, or something about the Cross, I lean toward that possibility as well.
I am not trying to be too weird here, but there is such a thing. He has violent fantasies when he sees iconic images of the Lord and his Saints. He gets his jollies by fighting. He attacks The Church regularly. He sounds a bit down... Some other things

I am not suggesting his head spins and he spews green stuff. But once in a while we all can become open to attack by a demon or two. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you need to push back and resist egging on.

Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

So, less fighting on the Internet, more Jesus Prayer if you can manage it. It is Slavic in such situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFhybmvrY0&feature=related

   
 

tuesdayschild

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Marc1152 said:
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)
I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.
 

Alfred Persson

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tuesdayschild said:
Marc1152 said:
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)
I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.
I expect to be dishonored, it comes with the territory:

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
(Joh 8:48-49 NKJ)

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


21 Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon (Joh 10:21 NKJ)


 
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