Make God's path straight by being born again

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
Melodist said:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)
You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.

That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!

 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

 

Melodist

Archon
Joined
Dec 30, 2009
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
38
Alfred Persson said:
Melodist said:
Alfred Persson said:
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)
You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.

That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!
I think you missed the point. The phrase "what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture" is an anachronism because Paul is talking about the OT here and I also don't believe Paul's doctrine that he taught through discipleship would not be in contradiction to what he wrote. I;m not saying Paul contradicted himself. You are. You are the one saying that Paul said that scripture is the only thing you need and Paul said "continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" meaning Timothy was to continue in what Paul had taught him. The scribes and pharisees had Scripture. They knew it inside and out. That did not make most of them wise to salvation with the exception of a few. They still missed the point. Obviously Scripture was not enough for them. For Paul, the faith wasn't passed down in the form of a book, it was passed down through discipleship.
 

bogdan

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
1,614
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.
No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)
 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.
No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.


 

PeterTheAleut

Hypatos
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
37,280
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
48
Location
Portland, Oregon
Alfred Persson said:
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.
 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.
It is not written:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
(Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:4 NKJ)








 

PeterTheAleut

Hypatos
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
37,280
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
48
Location
Portland, Oregon
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.
It is not written:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
(Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
(1Co 10:4 NKJ)
You totally miss my point, then, for I'm talking about the reader, not the writer.  How do you know you're reading the text correctly?
 

genesisone

Archon
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
2,906
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
68
Location
Niagara Region, Ontario
Alfred, you keep quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17. Those verses make no sense unless one understands that "all Scripture" must refer to the Holy Scriptures that Timothy had known from childhood (v. 15). Again I ask, please tell us what Timothy (and Paul) would have understood as the Holy Scriptures referred to in verse 15.
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
Alfred Persson said:
bogdan said:
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

(2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.
No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.



 

PeterTheAleut

Hypatos
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
37,280
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
48
Location
Portland, Oregon
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

Alfred Persson said:
IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.
Can we ever be fully satisfied in our quest to know God better and know better what He demands of us?

Alfred Persson said:
BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)
Personal judgment of the Church, together with proof texts that do not mean at all what you present them to mean.  Do you ignore 1 Timothy 3:15, where St. Paul calls the Church the pillar and ground of the Truth?  And why do you set up an artificial dichotomy between the Apostles and the Church, so as to set them in opposition to each other?  Were not the Apostles members of the Church they founded?  In speaking through the Apostles, did not God speak through the Church, of whom the Apostles were themselves members?

Did the Holy Spirit descend solely upon the Apostles or upon all of the 120 people who awaited His coming in the Upper Room?

Alfred Persson said:
If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...
You aren't aware of the many miracles that have been performed by members of the Church in all the centuries since the last of the Apostles died?  I think that's about the only way you could make such a nonsensical claim as that.

Alfred Persson said:
no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)
Once for all delivered, however, does not mean that the saints were also delivered a full and perfect comprehension of the faith delivered to them.

Alfred Persson said:
There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Such as the "truth" of sola scriptura, which, in the form in which you present it here, is not found in the Scriptures nor in the writings of the Early Fathers...
 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.
The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...

When in fact all we need, is given to us by God. God puts the content of Peter's confession in our hearts and in our mouths:

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:5-10 KJV)

Then we are rewarded for how well we followed Christ, built upon the one foundation, with apostolic materials:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

If they build upon the foundation of Christ (that flesh and blood did not reveal to them), buildings of straw, these shall be burned up in fire of God's testing, but they themselves will be saved, but as those who flee a burning house, with no possessions = no rewards.

Save salvation, for that is a gift from God and not of ourselves:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


So Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone who believes the others are going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...are wrong...

God never trusted you folks would get it right.

The All knowing God who is Love knew you would all blow it.

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is built, in your heart and in your mouth.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.

 

DennyB

Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
241
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
53
Location
Graham, Tx
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!
 

PeterTheAleut

Hypatos
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
37,280
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
48
Location
Portland, Oregon
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.
The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

Alfred Persson said:
So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

Alfred Persson said:
BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Alfred Persson said:
Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Alfred Persson said:
Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?
 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
DennyB said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!
Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete,
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.



 

Alfred Persson

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
1,205
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
California
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.
The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

Alfred Persson said:
So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

Alfred Persson said:
BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Alfred Persson said:
Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Alfred Persson said:
Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?
Nothing I do is half baked...

It is written:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
(Rom 8:29-34 NKJ)
 

PeterTheAleut

Hypatos
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
37,280
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
48
Location
Portland, Oregon
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.
The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

Alfred Persson said:
So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

Alfred Persson said:
BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Alfred Persson said:
Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Alfred Persson said:
Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?
Nothing I do is half baked...
And yet you failed to address the other issues I addressed earlier in my post, such as your slavery to the same misconception you accuse us of holding.
 

DennyB

Sr. Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2004
Messages
241
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
53
Location
Graham, Tx
Alfred Persson said:
DennyB said:
Alfred Persson said:
Papist said:
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!
Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete,
(2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.
Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!
 
Top