• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Meet The "Young Saints" Of Bethel Who Go To College To Perform Miracles

Jetavan

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
7,044
Reaction score
45
Points
48
Website
www.esoteric.msu.edu
How a school that calls itself "Christian Hogwarts" is upending a small city in California's Trump country.

This is the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’s real goal: creating spiritual warriors, young people who will go out into the world armed with just the kind of supernatural gifts that Bethel believes will bring people into the Kingdom of God.
....
BSSM is built on the idea that we are all “naturally supernatural”: We all have the potential to heal the sick and to hear God’s vision for the future. It’s ours because it’s Jesus’s, says Farrelly: Jesus does the work, and humans act as conduits. The school’s job is to foster the supernatural gifts of signs and wonders — to teach people to hear God’s voice and turn it into prophecy.
....
Behind Bethel’s rise is the enormous talent and ambition of the church’s magnetizing leaders, Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, who cofounded BSSM in 1998....

Johnson has become one of the most high-profile apostles in a loosely connected and ever-multiplying group known as Independent Network Charismatics, or INC Christians, said Brad Christerson, a professor of sociology at Biola University and coauthor of The Rise of Network Christianity. Christerson calls INC Christianity, which is also known as New Apostolic Christianity, the country’s fastest-growing religious movement — and Bethel, he says, “is at the center.”
....
Bethel students who grow up as charismatic or Pentecostal Christians find Bethel through services and conferences that are streamed into their own churches....

For those who have spent their lives in mainstream Christianity, where miracles are generally confined to biblical times, Bethel’s theology can be deeply alluring. It offers a kind of certainty — an absolute proof of God’s existence — that many of their previous churches never did.
....
Mike Clark is a “born-again, Bible-believing Christian,” a pastor at a Baptist-linked church in Aurora, Colorado, who has become an outspoken critic of Bethel Church....

“Here’s the danger,” Clark says. “Miracles are a reflection of Jesus. When people chase after signs and wonders, they’re trading the Light himself, Jesus, for a reflection of the light.”

 

Daniel2:47

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
147
Reaction score
1
Points
18
Location
UK
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
ROCOR GB
Jetavan said:
How a school that calls itself "Christian Hogwarts" is upending a small city in California's Trump country.

This is the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’s real goal: creating spiritual warriors, young people who will go out into the world armed with just the kind of supernatural gifts that Bethel believes will bring people into the Kingdom of God.
....
BSSM is built on the idea that we are all “naturally supernatural”: We all have the potential to heal the sick and to hear God’s vision for the future. It’s ours because it’s Jesus’s, says Farrelly: Jesus does the work, and humans act as conduits. The school’s job is to foster the supernatural gifts of signs and wonders — to teach people to hear God’s voice and turn it into prophecy.
....
Behind Bethel’s rise is the enormous talent and ambition of the church’s magnetizing leaders, Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, who cofounded BSSM in 1998....

Johnson has become one of the most high-profile apostles in a loosely connected and ever-multiplying group known as Independent Network Charismatics, or INC Christians, said Brad Christerson, a professor of sociology at Biola University and coauthor of The Rise of Network Christianity. Christerson calls INC Christianity, which is also known as New Apostolic Christianity, the country’s fastest-growing religious movement — and Bethel, he says, “is at the center.”
....
Bethel students who grow up as charismatic or Pentecostal Christians find Bethel through services and conferences that are streamed into their own churches....

For those who have spent their lives in mainstream Christianity, where miracles are generally confined to biblical times, Bethel’s theology can be deeply alluring. It offers a kind of certainty — an absolute proof of God’s existence — that many of their previous churches never did.
....
Mike Clark is a “born-again, Bible-believing Christian,” a pastor at a Baptist-linked church in Aurora, Colorado, who has become an outspoken critic of Bethel Church....

“Here’s the danger,” Clark says. “Miracles are a reflection of Jesus. When people chase after signs and wonders, they’re trading the Light himself, Jesus, for a reflection of the light.”
Concerning
 

Mivac

Sr. Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
248
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jetavan said:
How a school that calls itself "Christian Hogwarts" is upending a small city in California's Trump country.

This is the Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry’s real goal: creating spiritual warriors, young people who will go out into the world armed with just the kind of supernatural gifts that Bethel believes will bring people into the Kingdom of God.
....
BSSM is built on the idea that we are all “naturally supernatural”: We all have the potential to heal the sick and to hear God’s vision for the future. It’s ours because it’s Jesus’s, says Farrelly: Jesus does the work, and humans act as conduits. The school’s job is to foster the supernatural gifts of signs and wonders — to teach people to hear God’s voice and turn it into prophecy.
....
Behind Bethel’s rise is the enormous talent and ambition of the church’s magnetizing leaders, Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton, who cofounded BSSM in 1998....

Johnson has become one of the most high-profile apostles in a loosely connected and ever-multiplying group known as Independent Network Charismatics, or INC Christians, said Brad Christerson, a professor of sociology at Biola University and coauthor of The Rise of Network Christianity. Christerson calls INC Christianity, which is also known as New Apostolic Christianity, the country’s fastest-growing religious movement — and Bethel, he says, “is at the center.”
....
Bethel students who grow up as charismatic or Pentecostal Christians find Bethel through services and conferences that are streamed into their own churches....

For those who have spent their lives in mainstream Christianity, where miracles are generally confined to biblical times, Bethel’s theology can be deeply alluring. It offers a kind of certainty — an absolute proof of God’s existence — that many of their previous churches never did.
....
Mike Clark is a “born-again, Bible-believing Christian,” a pastor at a Baptist-linked church in Aurora, Colorado, who has become an outspoken critic of Bethel Church....

“Here’s the danger,” Clark says. “Miracles are a reflection of Jesus. When people chase after signs and wonders, they’re trading the Light himself, Jesus, for a reflection of the light.”
My wife has friends who have moved to Redding Ca., to attend this very school.    :'(
 

William T

Archon
Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
2,545
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Chicago
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antioch
A couple people I knew growing up "got themselves religion" and I think turned to stuff like this.  I don't get it.  *hrrrumph* Kids these days...and those days
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
So, it's a new version of the Kansas City Prophets. Oh goody...
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
40,355
Reaction score
845
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
Jetavan said:

“Here’s the danger,” Clark says. “Miracles are a reflection of Jesus. When people chase after signs and wonders, they’re trading the Light himself, Jesus, for a reflection of the light.”


I get the point, but this seems like a very poor choice of words for illustrating it, considering that Christians are specifically called to be lights, reflecting or acting as the light of God.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,392
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Sounds almost like Bob Larson and his daughters.
 

Hinterlander

High Elder
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
862
Reaction score
2
Points
0
California is also home to cessationists like Macarthur who has his own "hogwarts" as well.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,756
Reaction score
286
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
What kind of Christians call themselves "Christian Hogwarts", referring to a school of witchcraft?

1He’s a charmer, that Harry Potter. The adolescent hero of J. K. Rowling’s series rides a broom, owns an invisibility cloak and magic wand, and has cast a spell over young readers the world over. He has modern-day witches enchanted too. "For once, the witches aren’t ugly old hags," said Michael Darnell, 39, a computer programmer from Winnipeg, Canada, who has been a practicing witch for over twenty-five years. "For once they’re the protagonists rather than the villains."

    —USA Today, May 30, 2000
Calling one's school "Christian Hogwarts' is not a good idea in light of Fr. Seraphim Rose's claims about Charismaticism as demonic.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
Hinterlander said:
California is also home to cessationists like Macarthur who has his own "hogwarts" as well.
He also wrote a book roasting Charismaticism a long time ago. I wonder if this will prompt him to do an updated edition.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
rakovsky said:
What kind of Christians call themselves "Christian Hogwarts", referring to a school of witchcraft?
Some Protestants like corny pop culture references. The point being that Charismaticism is "the real magic" of which fantasy fiction is just a pale, half-remembered reflection. I'm sure CS Lewis would approve (at least of the general idea, as I recall he was pretty uncertain about the Charismatic revivals of his own day).

I once heard a sermon from an AOG pastor make the same analogy with comic book superpowers.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,756
Reaction score
286
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Today I heard a talk on Charismatics. The speaker described how years before he had converted to Orthodoxy, he had attended a Charismatic Methodist service once. He said that a woman put her hands on him and repeated, "You will have the hands of David". Those at the service, including him, expected him to fall down as "slain in the spirit", but it did not happen. Instead, he remained conscious and standing, and he developed a sharp massive headache, which remained until he got home and took painkillers. It sounds to me like this was a result of the Charismatic session mimicking attempted hypnotism. Here are some articles explaining the relationship between hypnotism and side effects like headaches.

"What Are The Side Effects From Hypnosis?"
[By hypnotherapist William Wood]

The side effects that do happen, tend to be related to a rest/relax response (parasympathetic response). For example, someone might experience the heart rate slowing down, the blood pressure reducing, the person might perceive time speeding up or slowing down.

Because of these changes, I generally recommend that people do not stand up too quickly immediately after trance, as standing too quickly could cause dizziness or a headaches in rare cases. As long as the person hypnotized spends several seconds to several minutes allowing themselves to transition from the hypnotic state to a regular state, the side effects from emerging are incredibly rare.

Rarely, when profound change work takes place, there can be an effect that can last up to several hours after the end of the hypnosis session. While the brain is integrating change at the deepest level the client may notice up to several hours of difficulty concentrating.
http://northernutahhypnosis.com/sideeffectshypnosis/

Hypnosis side effects

It is exactly because Hypnosis is such a powerful method of treatment, that it can very rarely have unexpected and even dangerous side effects.
Side effects of Hypnosis include tiredness, crisis of identity, insomnia, irritability, fears, panic attacks, deficit of attention, distorted sense of self, confusion, sexually abberant behaviors, unexpected trance-like state, delusional thinking, depression, dizziness, syncope, fearfulness, feelings of guilt, histrionic reactions, impaired memory, nausea, obsessions, changes in personality.

http://owndoc.com/side_effects/alternative-treatments/hypnosis
"I am being treated with hypnosis and I am experiencing very strong headaches and a very bad "mood" afterwards. ... Is it supposed to happen?"

It can, but assuming to didn't have headaches beofre the session, either 1) it is the direct result of muscular tension caused by part of the experience - this can happen in abreaction which is often a part of analysis, 2) a conversion symptom. There may be other possibilities.
~Dr John Thornley
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.hypnosis/LXHYSuSVW9g

Conversion disorder (CD) is a diagnostic category used in some psychiatric classification systems. It is sometimes applied to patients who present with neurological symptoms, such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits, which are not consistent with a well-established organic cause, which cause significant distress, and can be traced back to a psychological trigger. It is thought that these symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a patient's mental health or an ongoing mental health condition such as depression.

The term "conversion" has its origins in Freud's doctrine that anxiety is "converted" into physical symptoms. ... Conversion disorder begins with some stressor, trauma, or psychological distress. Usually the physical symptoms of the syndrome affect the senses or movement. Common symptoms include blindness, partial or total paralysis, inability to speak, deafness, numbness, difficulty swallowing, incontinence, balance problems, seizures, tremors, and difficulty walking. These symptoms are attributed to conversion disorder when a medical explanation for the afflictions cannot be found...

Treatment
...
This may include the following:
    Explanation. This must be clear and coherent as attributing physical symptoms to a psychological cause is not accepted by many educated people in western cultures. It must emphasize the genuineness of the condition, that it is common, potentially reversible and does not mean that the sufferer is psychotic. Taking a neutral-cause-based stance by describing the symptoms as functional may be helpful, but further studies are required. Ideally, the patient should be followed up neurologically for a while to ensure that the diagnosis has been understood.
    Physiotherapy where appropriate;
    Occupational Therapy to maintain autonomy in activities of daily living;[23]
    Treatment of comorbid depression or anxiety if present.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder


Today's speaker recommended the book "I once spoke in tongues", by Wayne Robinson (1973). Robinson described how as a young person, he wanted to speak in tongues as a real miracle, but his friends who encouraged him to do this kept telling him to fake it.

You can read a quote from the book here on page number 285 (page 10 out of 18 in the file), describing a session where a charismatic coached a new initiate on how to learn the practice of speaking in tongues:
http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/preustongues.pdf
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
So, looks like Bethel is now in bed with (formerly) beloved animator, Butch Hartman. Life is weird.
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
I made a quick research about that ministry of Bethel church, their students perform ''drunkness anointing'' and ''holy laughter'', but what really striked me as the most bizarre, is ''grave sucking'', where they lay by and hug graves of famous protestant preachers to absorb their ''anointing''.



 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
27
Points
38
Age
40
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
Well, it's bizarre because of who is doing it and how (and the fact they call it "grave sucking") but otherwise it's comparable to our veneration of relics. Of course they will likely say the latter practice is idolatrous.
 

Agabus

The user formerly known as Agabus
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
6,333
Reaction score
23
Points
38
Faith
Magnificat
Jurisdiction
La Virgen de Caridad del Cobre
Whenever a charismatic group names itself Bethel or Bethany, there's a significantly increased chance that something weird is going on.

Volnutt said:
So, it's a new version of the Kansas City Prophets. Oh goody...
I was thinking of the Lakewood Revival/Ontario Outpouring only with classrooms, but potato-potato, right?

I think Oral Roberts would be concerned about being called Christian Hogwarts
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Iconodule said:
Well, it's bizarre because of who is doing it and how (and the fact they call it "grave sucking") but otherwise it's comparable to our veneration of relics. Of course they will likely say the latter practice is idolatrous.
It is comparable, maybe, but as far as I know, relic veneration doesnt imply in ''absorbing'' that saint's wisdom, gifts and skills.

This is the definition of grave soaking/sucking/mantle grabbing according to gotquestions.org

Grave sucking, also known as grave soaking or mantle grabbing, is the act of lying across the physical grave of a deceased preacher or evangelist for the purpose of “pulling out” the power of the Holy Spirit, a power that was purportedly “trapped” within the body upon the person’s death.


 

Arachne

Matriarch
Staff member
Moderator
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Messages
13,056
Reaction score
760
Points
113
Age
50
Location
Camulodunum
Faith
Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
Jurisdiction
Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
juliogb said:
Iconodule said:
Well, it's bizarre because of who is doing it and how (and the fact they call it "grave sucking") but otherwise it's comparable to our veneration of relics. Of course they will likely say the latter practice is idolatrous.
It is comparable, maybe, but as far as I know, relic veneration doesnt imply in ''absorbing'' that saint's wisdom, gifts and skills.

This is the definition of grave soaking/sucking/mantle grabbing according to gotquestions.org

Grave sucking, also known as grave soaking or mantle grabbing, is the act of lying across the physical grave of a deceased preacher or evangelist for the purpose of “pulling out” the power of the Holy Spirit, a power that was purportedly “trapped” within the body upon the person’s death.
Isn't that power ever depleted? I mean, there's only so much charge a battery can hold...
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0


They do that grave soaking thing in such a disrespectful manner.
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
27
Points
38
Age
40
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
The guy in front is so edgy
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Those guys of Bethel are part of the New Apostolic Reformation, an ultra-charismatic movement that is growing in the so called ''nondenom'' churches. It is basically a generic motivational theism with lots of weird stuff happening, uncontrolable laughter, glossolalia, angel's feathers falling from the air vents in the services, gloryclouds, angel choirs, drunkness anointing....it is basically a massive prelest machine.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,392
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Agabus said:
Whenever a charismatic group names itself Bethel or Bethany, there's a significantly increased chance that something weird is going on.
Literal lol.
 

Orthodox_Slav

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 17, 2018
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Moscow Patriarchate
this stuff is heretical. the Grave sucking a lot and it is also strange!
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
Agabus said:
Whenever a charismatic group names itself Bethel or Bethany, there's a significantly increased chance that something weird is going on.

Volnutt said:
So, it's a new version of the Kansas City Prophets. Oh goody...
I was thinking of the Lakewood Revival/Ontario Outpouring only with classrooms, but potato-potato, right?

I think Oral Roberts would be concerned about being called Christian Hogwarts
Yeah, pretty much lol.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
juliogb said:
Those guys of Bethel are part of the New Apostolic Reformation, an ultra-charismatic movement that is growing in the so called ''nondenom'' churches. It is basically a generic motivational theism with lots of weird stuff happening, uncontrolable laughter, glossolalia, angel's feathers falling from the air vents in the services, gloryclouds, angel choirs, drunkness anointing....it is basically a massive prelest machine.
It's kind of funny the way it always blurs the line between nondenom and Pentecostal with them often speaking at one another's meetings, too. Just highlights what a meaningless term the former really is.
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
Those guys of Bethel are part of the New Apostolic Reformation, an ultra-charismatic movement that is growing in the so called ''nondenom'' churches. It is basically a generic motivational theism with lots of weird stuff happening, uncontrolable laughter, glossolalia, angel's feathers falling from the air vents in the services, gloryclouds, angel choirs, drunkness anointing....it is basically a massive prelest machine.
It's kind of funny the way it always blurs the line between nondenom and Pentecostal with them often speaking at one another's meetings, too. Just highlights what a meaningless term the former really is.
Well, it is a meaningless term, but quite useful in a culture that doesn't like organized religion. They won't be straightforward and clear about what they believe, so they present themselves with the following ''we are not religious, we follow Jesus'', or ''it is not about religion, it is about relationship with Jesus''...and that sort of thing, wich is basically deception, because they have their own weird word of faith/new apostolic reformation doctrines that they conceal initially, presenting themselves as ''nondenominational'', free from ''religion'', guided directly but the Holy Spirit, they also don't use the term evangelical or protestant, and will call themselves ''christians'' usually, to reinforce the ''nondenom'' narrative.

Their doctrines about the Holy Spirit are...exotic, to put it mildly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wu-WqLjoJo

 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
juliogb said:
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
Those guys of Bethel are part of the New Apostolic Reformation, an ultra-charismatic movement that is growing in the so called ''nondenom'' churches. It is basically a generic motivational theism with lots of weird stuff happening, uncontrolable laughter, glossolalia, angel's feathers falling from the air vents in the services, gloryclouds, angel choirs, drunkness anointing....it is basically a massive prelest machine.
It's kind of funny the way it always blurs the line between nondenom and Pentecostal with them often speaking at one another's meetings, too. Just highlights what a meaningless term the former really is.
Well, it is a meaningless term, but quite useful in a culture that doesn't like organized religion. They won't be straightforward and clear about what they believe, so they present themselves with the following ''we are not religious, we follow Jesus'', or ''it is not about religion, it is about relationship with Jesus''...and that sort of thing, wich is basically deception, because they have their own weird word of faith/new apostolic reformation doctrines that they conceal initially, presenting themselves as ''nondenominational'', free from ''religion'', guided directly but the Holy Spirit, they also don't use the term evangelical or protestant, and will call themselves ''christians'' usually, to reinforce the ''nondenom'' narrative.
Yep, pretty much.

juliogb said:
Their doctrines about the Holy Spirit are...exotic, to put it mildly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wu-WqLjoJo
Better Aladdin reference.


EDIT: Also, from the description from the video you linked:

I've viewed most of the teaching videos I could find featuring Jenn Johnson, Senior Worship Pastor at Bethel Church. I actually don't think I ever heard her quote a scripture, although she once mentioned the book of "Revelations" in the context of "farting" angels.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
juliogb said:
I made a quick research about that ministry of Bethel church, their students perform ''drunkness anointing'' and ''holy laughter'', but what really striked me as the most bizarre, is ''grave sucking'', where they lay by and hug graves of famous protestant preachers to absorb their ''anointing''.



Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
27
Points
38
Age
40
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
I made a quick research about that ministry of Bethel church, their students perform ''drunkness anointing'' and ''holy laughter'', but what really striked me as the most bizarre, is ''grave sucking'', where they lay by and hug graves of famous protestant preachers to absorb their ''anointing''.



Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
I've often wondered if I could scare away muggers by acting really weird and shouting gibberish.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
"I'm the gtvhvbegvufrh&lenjwllhfu4 that Gotham needs, but not the 5rh@9tyhup95#97gr"rk2ur2OJru'85^2yur that it deserves."
 

Agabus

The user formerly known as Agabus
Joined
Apr 10, 2009
Messages
6,333
Reaction score
23
Points
38
Faith
Magnificat
Jurisdiction
La Virgen de Caridad del Cobre
Volnutt said:
Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
Considering guns were basically single shot or bust at that time and most weren't capable of hitting a target on purpose, yelling gibberish to startle someone might not have been the worst strategy.

Or maybe he meant John Wesley Hardin. ;)
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
Agabus said:
Volnutt said:
Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
Considering guns were basically single shot or bust at that time and most weren't capable of hitting a target on purpose, yelling gibberish to startle someone might not have been the worst strategy.

Or maybe he meant John Wesley Hardin. ;)
lol, maybe.
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
I made a quick research about that ministry of Bethel church, their students perform ''drunkness anointing'' and ''holy laughter'', but what really striked me as the most bizarre, is ''grave sucking'', where they lay by and hug graves of famous protestant preachers to absorb their ''anointing''.



Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
Wasn't Finney the inventor of the altar call and sinners prayer?
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,392
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
I guess having sex with gravestones isn't the worst thing they could do.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
juliogb said:
Volnutt said:
juliogb said:
I made a quick research about that ministry of Bethel church, their students perform ''drunkness anointing'' and ''holy laughter'', but what really striked me as the most bizarre, is ''grave sucking'', where they lay by and hug graves of famous protestant preachers to absorb their ''anointing''.



Why Finney, too? I don't think there was any Charismatic stuff at his meetings, he predates the modern versions of it by decades (then again, I once heard an AoG minister claim that John Wesley faced down a man who pulled a gun on him by speaking in tongues...)
Wasn't Finney the inventor of the altar call and sinners prayer?
I'm gonna "yes" to the latter and "no" to the former (the altar call is pretty much just the "anxious bench" of Jonathan Edwards and James Whitefield, the generation before Finney). I'm no expert (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).
 

Poemen

Jr. Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
36
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Age
21
Location
Australia
Faith
Edinoverie
Jurisdiction
Moscow Patriarchate
Oh wow, I'm glad to see there's a thread up about this already. I was part of Australia's equivalent of this known as "Jesus School" just last year prior to me becoming Orthodox - an 11 day camp with a group limited to generally around 50 or so. Their sessions would consist of their theology: "You're not a sinner, you're a SAINT! Sin has no hold on you, you can work miracles! It's your duty to heal the sick and prophesy!" followed by a "Gift activation" where we would have to "activate the gifts of the Holy Spirit inside us". They teach that everyone is capable of healing and other miracles.

One session had us close our eyes to receive a "prophecy" about the person behind us. However, we were told that everyone's "prophecy" would be seeing them in some form on a magazine cover, to which we would have to tell them what we saw. The method for acquiring these "prophecies", we were told, was to clear our mind of all thoughts until we were "given something". Rather vividly, I recall how I saw the guy behind me on a magazine cover dressed as some American-football quarterback. He, on the other hand, saw me "standing on a road with a large crack going down the centre".

Another thing they focus so heavily on is "outreach", we'd get sent out in groups to go on the streets of this rural township and try to heal people. There was a whole lot of failed "words of knowledge" ("Hi, is your name Steve?" "No, why" "Oh nevermind - Jesus loves you!") and attempted healings (I spent like a solid hour in an old man's nursing home room with 2 others as we tried to heal him by repeatedly saying "in Jesus name, in Jesus name" and the likes).

Nevertheless, this town probably hated everyone attending by the end, it was spreading by word-of-mouth how some people were trying to evangelise some kid crying in the hospital when he was visiting his mother.
 

Volnutt

Hoplitarches
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
15,089
Reaction score
10
Points
0
Age
36
Faith
Evangelical by default
Jurisdiction
Spiritually homeless
Sick. Totally sick. I'm glad you got out of it!

And I hope that kid doesn't grow to be an atheist because of this. :-\
 

juliogb

High Elder
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
976
Reaction score
7
Points
0
Poemen said:
Oh wow, I'm glad to see there's a thread up about this already. I was part of Australia's equivalent of this known as "Jesus School" just last year prior to me becoming Orthodox - an 11 day camp with a group limited to generally around 50 or so. Their sessions would consist of their theology: "You're not a sinner, you're a SAINT! Sin has no hold on you, you can work miracles! It's your duty to heal the sick and prophesy!" followed by a "Gift activation" where we would have to "activate the gifts of the Holy Spirit inside us". They teach that everyone is capable of healing and other miracles.

One session had us close our eyes to receive a "prophecy" about the person behind us. However, we were told that everyone's "prophecy" would be seeing them in some form on a magazine cover, to which we would have to tell them what we saw. The method for acquiring these "prophecies", we were told, was to clear our mind of all thoughts until we were "given something". Rather vividly, I recall how I saw the guy behind me on a magazine cover dressed as some American-football quarterback. He, on the other hand, saw me "standing on a road with a large crack going down the centre".

Another thing they focus so heavily on is "outreach", we'd get sent out in groups to go on the streets of this rural township and try to heal people. There was a whole lot of failed "words of knowledge" ("Hi, is your name Steve?" "No, why" "Oh nevermind - Jesus loves you!") and attempted healings (I spent like a solid hour in an old man's nursing home room with 2 others as we tried to heal him by repeatedly saying "in Jesus name, in Jesus name" and the likes).

Nevertheless, this town probably hated everyone attending by the end, it was spreading by word-of-mouth how some people were trying to evangelise some kid crying in the hospital when he was visiting his mother.
I heard once about the ''prophecy'', some girl saying that went to this bethel institute of supernatural stuff and she had to make a prophecy for another person in the form of a song. Sometimes it looks like plain sorcery or new age gibberish with a jesusy vocabulary on top.
 

Poemen

Jr. Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2017
Messages
36
Reaction score
0
Points
6
Age
21
Location
Australia
Faith
Edinoverie
Jurisdiction
Moscow Patriarchate
juliogb said:
I heard once about the ''prophecy'', some girl saying that went to this bethel institute of supernatural stuff and she had to make a prophecy for another person in the form of a song. Sometimes it looks like plain sorcery or new age gibberish with a jesusy vocabulary on top.
Honestly, I'm convinced after reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" that it is indeed sorcery - quite a big thing in Pentecostalism/NAR is holding hands and praying/"prophesying", likewise the same happens for occult séances. I'd say the book poses the best proofs of Pentecostal/NAR phenomena being basically pagan/shamanistic practices.
 
Top