Met. Ambrosius invites Lutheran Bishop into Altar during Ordination

[PeterTheAleut]

... having her named in the litany, especially by title, is definitely an issue.  Bad enough to mention her by name but to recognize her title in such a way is really bad. ...

I agree.

Even if she were neither present on the altar nor in the Church, having her commemorated during the Divine Liturgy is uncanonical.

The monks at Mt. Athos became upset when the Pope of Rome was commemorated at the Divine Liturgy in Constantinople.

How does this concern us?

 

[Maria]

.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Honestly, if she were my mother I would love her to pieces. She looks adorable, like something out of Prairie Home Companion: I bet her Powder Milk Biscuits are the talk of the neighborhood. But she shouldn't have been invited into the altar and I don't see why we're not allowed to talk about it.

I never said you're not allowed to talk about it.

It was done in public, not in private. It seems by "gossip" PtA means "public news that doesn't support my ecclesiological position".

My ecclesiological position really has nothing to do with my perception of the talk surrounding this story. The Prayer of St. Ephraim that we pray many times a day during this Lenten season says, "Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own faults and not judge my brother." This violation of canonical norms appears to have been addressed by those with the authority to discipline the Metropolitan. How, then, does the continued discussion of this article that Maria would like to encourage not lead us to judge our brother?

 

[Maria]

Honestly, if she were my mother I would love her to pieces. She looks adorable, like something out of Prairie Home Companion: I bet her Powder Milk Biscuits are the talk of the neighborhood. But she shouldn't have been invited into the altar and I don't see why we're not allowed to talk about it.  ...

Yes, her pictures are quite flattering. And you are quite right. She should neither have been invited on the altar nor have been commemorated. And for these uncanonical acts, the Metropolitan is rightly being called on the carpet.

 

[wgw]

What we do need to do is pray for the Church of Finland, which I think more than any other Orthodox Church, is under attack from modernists.  This is the church where recently a large number of clergy signed a petition calling on the Archbishop to allow gay marriage.  The Lutheran Church of Finland was incidentally the last Scandinavian state to capitulate on the issue but capitulate they did, which was no surprise to me, as I once had to sit through a sermon on Easter Sunday by one of their pastors, which included entirly inappropriate speculation as to whether or not our Lord was married. 

And the Church of Finland, like its Lutheran counterpart, is from what I understand a state church, so it is under enormous pressure to capitulate and give in to the demands of the European left on the ordination of women, gay marriage, and so on.  The Church of England caved in under enormous pressure on female bishops and the Archbishop of Canterbury is pushing for gay marriage or blessing or some form of accommodation.  That's in a country that is substantially politically and socially more conservative than Finland.  So I really feel like their Archbishop is a man at war with demonic forces and we must pray for him fervently.  He has made it clear he does not want his church to go down the road that has been prepared for it by these people, the broad highway its Lutheran counterpart went down.  And we can help him by praying for it.  Also consider for a moment the crisis that would ensue if the Church of Finland did cave in on issues like this.  The political class would unleash every wicked agency at their disposal to try and coerce the EP into not anathematizing them; the territorial integrity of Mount Athos, it's suzerainity as it were, would probably be under threat.  And the result could be a domino effect whereby those Orthodox churches most exposed to political pressure collapsed on this issue, rending the Holy Orthodox Church in half.  God forbid. 

By the way, regarding the irregular use of the Gregorian Computus by the Church of Finland, one must remember that for most of the 20th century Finland was effectively a dictatorship; throughout World War II, where it for a time was allied with the Nazis, due to the Winter War in the years preceding, and afterwards, when it was effectively a one party state ruled by a centrist government; a relatively liberal one, with free elections, but the centrists had no effective opposition.  And their position and their success at maintaining power came from the idea that they could prevent a Soviet invasion and maintain Finnish neutrality, which was deeply appealing.  So really, it seems to me that the calendar issue from everything I've read was dictated to the Church of Finland. 

On a more positive note, Capella Romana's album of Finnish Orthodox music, Arctic Light, is rather good.  I'm going to have a listen now and pray for their Archbishop.  So yes indeed Peter, let's not gossip or engage in idle talk, but please let us keep the Finnish church in our prayers, that they may be kept in Holy Orthodoxy through the grace and compassion of our Lord, the intercession of Ss. Irenaeus, Athanasius, and all the saints, and especially the Theotokos, keeping watch so that their hierarchs may rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Would you guys prefer that she looked like this?

Yes, but for reasons totally unrelated to the ordination of women.

IDK. I'd lay hands on that!

We are of one mind. 

 

[Alxandra]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

 

[Maria]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

 

[wgw]

Which is why we must pray for the Archbishop of Finland, that he is able to censure the erring Metropolitan, and the Metropolitan, who I'm sure had only good intentions, that he be illumined as to what is right and proper in the Divine Liturgy.  I think we all agree that any woman who accepts the priesthood, let alone the episcopate, is suffering from the most severe prelest.  So I found the comments mocking the appearance of the Lutheran bishop to be in bad taste.

This is not a joking matter, but a tragedy on the one hand in terms of how far the Lutheran church in Finland has fallen, and an emergency on the other, that there is an Orthodox bishop of Metropolitan rank who would do this.  But it sounds like the Archbishop is taking the correct action.  So we must pray for the Archbishop, the Metropolitan, and the whole Church of Finland, which is only a small church as Orthodox churches go, but which appears at the moment to be caught on the ideological frontline between Orthodoxy and heresy.

 

[Tommelomsky]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+2

 

[Yurysprudentsiya]

I wonder to what extent this episode derives from the fact that, in Finland, the Lutheran and Orthodox Churches are co-state Churches.  There may be considerable encouragement, formal or informal, from the state or at least the popular conception of these things, to do things in this fashion.

I'd defer to a Finnish person to opine on this.  But it may be at the root of some of what happened.

 

[wgw]

Indeed so; I believe state coercion is a huge factor in everything we see going wrong in the poor benighted Church of Finland.  Which is a church that is dear to me, because I'm partially ethnic Swedish, and a native, authentically Scandinavian Orthodoxy is a big deal to me.  I would be heartbroken if something bad happened to that church; I can live with it being on the Gregorian calendar but if they were to ordain women, enter into communion with the Finnish Lutherans without the latter adopting the Orthodox faith in its fullness including a male episcopate, or, as some of their clergy have advocated, provide same sex marriage or blessings, that would truly devastate me.

 

[wgw]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

 

[kelly]

I find the emphasis on her looks in some of these posts to be really off-putting and uncharitable.

 

[FormerReformer]

I find the emphasis on her looks in some of these posts to be really off-putting and uncharitable.

Two posts. Two posts that focus on the looks of the woman bishop- and really, is "crazy eyes" all that much of a comment- plus one post commenting on comments in the article itself. The rest of the emphasis on looks here in the forum have been comments on a completely unrelated picture and perfectly within acceptable levels of male Lenten innuendo.

 

[kelly]

I find the emphasis on her looks in some of these posts to be really off-putting and uncharitable.

Two posts. Two posts that focus on the looks of the woman bishop- and really, is "crazy eyes" all that much of a comment- plus one post commenting on comments in the article itself. The rest of the emphasis on looks here in the forum have been comments on a completely unrelated picture and perfectly within acceptable levels of male Lenten innuendo.

Why comment on it at all?

 

[Alxandra]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

You're not misogynist just like respecting traditional gender roles is not either. God created men and women with different roles and they are beautiful. It's unfortunate that some feminists can't see this beauty and turn it into something negative. 

 

[Maria]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

You're not misogynist just like respecting traditional gender roles is not either. God created men and women with different roles and they are beautiful. It's unfortunate that some feminists can't see this beauty and turn it into something negative.

+3

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

You're not misogynist just like respecting traditional gender roles is not either. God created men and women with different roles and they are beautiful. It's unfortunate that some feminists can't see this beauty and turn it into something negative.

+3

+3? When did you become a trinity?

 

[Asteriktos]

Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

Men are not capable of horrifying antics? Or is it just that our (male) antics do not amount to a reasonable and fair justification for prohibiting men from the priesthood? ???

 

[Maria]

Indeed so; I believe state coercion is a huge factor in everything we see going wrong in the poor benighted Church of Finland.  Which is a church that is dear to me, because I'm partially ethnic Swedish, and a native, authentically Scandinavian Orthodoxy is a big deal to me.  I would be heartbroken if something bad happened to that church; I can live with it being on the Gregorian calendar but if they were to ordain women, enter into communion with the Finnish Lutherans without the latter adopting the Orthodox faith in its fullness including a male episcopate, or, as some of their clergy have advocated, provide same sex marriage or blessings, that would truly devastate me.

Have you seen this Finnish Orthodox document?
Lord have mercy.

http://www.kosmas.fi/PDF-files-veljeston%20paasivu/Finn_Ort_Probl_2009_Autumn.pdf

Although other disturbing trends were mentioned, this excerpt below on woman's ordination is relative to the discussion at hand:

Metropolitan of Helsinki Ambrosius brought the question of female ordination to the spotlights in the
Orthodox Church of Finland in the beginning of 2007 on the basis of an ecumenical document of the
Anglican-Orthodox Commission about it. Helsingin Sanomat, the newspaper with the widest circulation in
Finland, presented his views on 1 February 2007: “According to Metropolitan Ambrosius, ordination of
women isn’t a factor separating churches. The Orthodox have an open approach to the matter, but
consecration of women bishops faces big problems in terms of the doctrine of the church.” (page 32)

 

[sakura95]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

You're not misogynist just like respecting traditional gender roles is not either. God created men and women with different roles and they are beautiful. It's unfortunate that some feminists can't see this beauty and turn it into something negative.

+3

+3? When did you become a trinity?

+4 Maybe?  :-\

 

[Maria]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+2

Here is the +2

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Indeed so; I believe state coercion is a huge factor in everything we see going wrong in the poor benighted Church of Finland.  Which is a church that is dear to me, because I'm partially ethnic Swedish, and a native, authentically Scandinavian Orthodoxy is a big deal to me.  I would be heartbroken if something bad happened to that church; I can live with it being on the Gregorian calendar but if they were to ordain women, enter into communion with the Finnish Lutherans without the latter adopting the Orthodox faith in its fullness including a male episcopate, or, as some of their clergy have advocated, provide same sex marriage or blessings, that would truly devastate me.

Have you seen this Finnish Orthodox document?
Lord have mercy.

http://www.kosmas.fi/PDF-files-veljeston%20paasivu/Finn_Ort_Probl_2009_Autumn.pdf

Although other disturbing trends were mentioned, this excerpt below on woman's ordination is relative to the discussion at hand:

...

Actually, no it's not, for this thread did not start as a discussion of women's ordination. Women's ordination is a tangent entered later in the thread.

 

[Maria]

Indeed so; I believe state coercion is a huge factor in everything we see going wrong in the poor benighted Church of Finland.  Which is a church that is dear to me, because I'm partially ethnic Swedish, and a native, authentically Scandinavian Orthodoxy is a big deal to me.  I would be heartbroken if something bad happened to that church; I can live with it being on the Gregorian calendar but if they were to ordain women, enter into communion with the Finnish Lutherans without the latter adopting the Orthodox faith in its fullness including a male episcopate, or, as some of their clergy have advocated, provide same sex marriage or blessings, that would truly devastate me.

Have you seen this Finnish Orthodox document?
Lord have mercy.

http://www.kosmas.fi/PDF-files-veljeston%20paasivu/Finn_Ort_Probl_2009_Autumn.pdf

Although other disturbing trends were mentioned, this excerpt below on woman's ordination is relative to the discussion at hand:

    Metropolitan of Helsinki Ambrosius brought the question of female ordination to the spotlights in the
    Orthodox Church of Finland in the beginning of 2007 on the basis of an ecumenical document of the
    Anglican-Orthodox Commission about it. Helsingin Sanomat, the newspaper with the widest circulation in
    Finland, presented his views on 1 February 2007: “According to Metropolitan Ambrosius, ordination of
    women isn’t a factor separating churches. The Orthodox have an open approach to the matter, but
    consecration of women bishops faces big problems in terms of the doctrine of the church.” (page 32)

Actually, no it's not, for this thread did not start as a discussion of women's ordination. Women's ordination is a tangent entered later in the thread.

On the contrary, the link in the OP mentioned the female Lutheran Bishop along with her picture, and as the highlighted blue font proves, the Metropolitan is very much open to female ordination.

If the Lutheran Bishop had been male, I doubt all this fuss would have been made. There might have been some minor protests over a male Lutheran Bishop, but not the heightened protests seen in recent days.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Indeed so; I believe state coercion is a huge factor in everything we see going wrong in the poor benighted Church of Finland.  Which is a church that is dear to me, because I'm partially ethnic Swedish, and a native, authentically Scandinavian Orthodoxy is a big deal to me.  I would be heartbroken if something bad happened to that church; I can live with it being on the Gregorian calendar but if they were to ordain women, enter into communion with the Finnish Lutherans without the latter adopting the Orthodox faith in its fullness including a male episcopate, or, as some of their clergy have advocated, provide same sex marriage or blessings, that would truly devastate me.

Have you seen this Finnish Orthodox document?
Lord have mercy.

http://www.kosmas.fi/PDF-files-veljeston%20paasivu/Finn_Ort_Probl_2009_Autumn.pdf

Although other disturbing trends were mentioned, this excerpt below on woman's ordination is relative to the discussion at hand:

    Metropolitan of Helsinki Ambrosius brought the question of female ordination to the spotlights in the
    Orthodox Church of Finland in the beginning of 2007 on the basis of an ecumenical document of the
    Anglican-Orthodox Commission about it. Helsingin Sanomat, the newspaper with the widest circulation in
    Finland, presented his views on 1 February 2007: “According to Metropolitan Ambrosius, ordination of
    women isn’t a factor separating churches. The Orthodox have an open approach to the matter, but
    consecration of women bishops faces big problems in terms of the doctrine of the church.” (page 32)

Actually, no it's not, for this thread did not start as a discussion of women's ordination. Women's ordination is a tangent entered later in the thread.

On the contrary, the link in the OP mentioned the female Lutheran Bishop along with her picture, and as the highlighted blue font proves, the Metropolitan is very much open to female ordination.

Discussion of a female bishop is not discussion of the ordination of females. Be that as it may, the text you highlighted does not indicate an openness to the ordination of women. For one, I've always believed that one can be open to discussing the subject of women's ordination without being open to actually ordaining women. I think the Church needs to discuss the ordination of women even if our only reason for doing so is to articulate a definitive theological/ecclesiological reason for continued opposition to women's ordination. I don't think it wise to avoid the subject at all costs out of an unfounded fear that discussion will inevitably lead us to start making women priests. Merely bringing the question of women's ordination into the spotlight therefore does not indicate an openness to the ordination of women.

Let's say even that Metropolitan Ambrosius is open to ordaining women. Why is it a problem for him to merely say that? Unless he actually starts ordaining women, then what he says about the subject is nothing more than words. AFAIK, the idea of ordaining women has never been formally condemned as a heresy, so a bishop is still permitted to speak in favor of it.

If the Lutheran Bishop had been male, I doubt all this fuss would have been made. There might have been some minor protests over a male Lutheran Bishop, but not the heightened protests seen in recent days.

I could say something here, but I don't think it would be appropriate for the Christian News board. I may have said too much already, seeing how closely we're skirting the rules against debate in this section of the forum.

BTW, the title you gave this thread indicates that the story is about an Orthodox Metropolitan inviting a Lutheran bishop, NOT a female bishop, into the altar area. One has to actually open the thread to find out that the Lutheran bishop is really a female. Therefore, if we were to follow the title of this thread, we should be talking about the problem of ecumenism, NOT about the ordination of women.

 

[FormerReformer]

I find the emphasis on her looks in some of these posts to be really off-putting and uncharitable.

Two posts. Two posts that focus on the looks of the woman bishop- and really, is "crazy eyes" all that much of a comment- plus one post commenting on comments in the article itself. The rest of the emphasis on looks here in the forum have been comments on a completely unrelated picture and perfectly within acceptable levels of male Lenten innuendo.

Why comment on it at all?

That, I don't know. I just thank the good Lord for Lovesupreme calling attention to the horrific comments previously made and the subsequent posting of a more edifying image.

 

[Gunnarr]

The nice thing about the internet if that it gives us the ability to worry about things halfway around the world that are completely out of our control.

Yes, the Internet allows us to be scandalized by things we are better off not knowing. The appropriate way to bring up allegations of scandalous conduct like this is to bring it up to the Metropolitan's synod. I don't see how gossiping about it online can do us much good.

I think gossip can be a force for good if it prevents the bishops from sweeping something under the rug. That doesn't apply to this case since it was so public, but I'm just saying in general.

I disagree. I don't see any situation where gossip is ever appropriate.

Then lets shut this forum down!

 

[wgw]

Well, I am for ecumenical reconciliation, but not with Lambeth Palace; Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has admitted Anglican-Orthodox dialogue has been primarily academic since the Episcopal Church USA started ordaining women in 1979.  But here we see Metropolitan Ambrosius attempting to use such dialogue to start a conversation that should never be started.

Now Peter, I lamentably find myself for the first time having to disagree with you on this subject.  Years ago His Eminence Kallistos Ware said we need to say why we don't ordain women, and since then I've seen some very convincing papers on the subject.  If anything this material simply needs to be distributed more broadly.  But actually the answer is very simple, and that is that the Apostle Paul imposes injunctions on women exercising authority over men in church, and also directs them to, within the ecclesiastical sphere, "keep silent."  Most Orthodox interpret this as allowing female singers, and the deaconesses appear to have been one and the same with the order of widows mentioned by Paul.  So we don't in fact need an ecumenical council to say our bishops shouldn't even dare propose this, because in the entire history of the Orthodox Church, there were no female priests or bishops, or to my knowledge, any saints who advocated for them, although it's possible there may be some among the New Martyrs of Russia, after all, St. Pavel Florensky cleansed himself of his heresy with his own blood, confessing the name of our Lord, and we also have the Pauline injunction.  So no pious bishop has the right to come out in favor of it, to the extent Ambrosius appears to have done, if I read the article correctly.  But I may have misread it.

But going back to the ecumenical question, in my opinion, there is a most urgent need for the Orthodox Church to regard those churches that are sinking into modernism as anathema.  We can have nothing to do with the Lutheran Church of Finland, the ECUSA, or any other church that has gone down that path.  The churches we should be courting are small conservative like minded denominations, such as the Polish National Catholic Church and the Union of Scranton it formed after being expelled from the Union of Utrecht, as well as churches with congregational polities, bylaws allowing us to easily take control, and nice buildings.      There are some UCC congregations with lovely buildings that have so few members left; if suddenly we sent in 40 or so Orthodox within a year we might be able to upgrade the quality of accommodations in some of the cities where our parishioners are worshipping in office blocks. 

But seriously, I think you can see, and we can agree, that there are two problems here: the modernist pressure on the Church of Finland, which is external and political in nature, and allows Metropolitan Ambrosius the freedom to attempt something like this that he would not dare try in another jurisdiction, and what is more, ecumenical dialogues that have been fruitless for years coming back to bite us like undead zombies when a bishop like the Metropolitan uses them as a vehicle to introduce a modernizing agenda.

Lastly, on the subject of troubling images, I share my sentiment in the disgust at those who mocked the female bishop for her appearance, as stated above.  However, I found a disturbing image showing Metropolitan Ambrosius wearing the purple clergy shirt popular among Anglican primates and indeed worn by his Lutheran counterpart, with a Greek stovepipe hat, without the customary veil over the back of his head which is appropriate to his office.  Now I don't mind Orthodox clergy using clerical collars in chaplaincy situations and in Western countries where they need to make it clear "Im a priest and I'm here to help."  But he should wear headgear appropriate to his office.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Well, I am for ecumenical reconciliation, but not with Lambeth Palace; Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has admitted Anglican-Orthodox dialogue has been primarily academic since the Episcopal Church USA started ordaining women in 1979.  But here we see Metropolitan Ambrosius attempting to use such dialogue to start a conversation that should never be started.

Now Peter, I lamentably find myself for the first time having to disagree with you on this subject.  Years ago His Eminence Kallistos Ware said we need to say why we don't ordain women, and since then I've seen some very convincing papers on the subject.  If anything this material simply needs to be distributed more broadly.  But actually the answer is very simple, and that is that the Apostle Paul imposes injunctions on women exercising authority over men in church, and also directs them to, within the ecclesiastical sphere, "keep silent."  Most Orthodox interpret this as allowing female singers, and the deaconesses appear to have been one and the same with the order of widows mentioned by Paul.  So we don't in fact need an ecumenical council to say our bishops shouldn't even dare propose this, because in the entire history of the Orthodox Church, there were no female priests or bishops, or to my knowledge, any saints who advocated for them, although it's possible there may be some among the New Martyrs of Russia, after all, St. Pavel Florensky cleansed himself of his heresy with his own blood, confessing the name of our Lord, and we also have the Pauline injunction.  So no pious bishop has the right to come out in favor of it, to the extent Ambrosius appears to have done, if I read the article correctly.  But I may have misread it.

But going back to the ecumenical question, in my opinion, there is a most urgent need for the Orthodox Church to regard those churches that are sinking into modernism as anathema.  We can have nothing to do with the Lutheran Church of Finland, the ECUSA, or any other church that has gone down that path.  The churches we should be courting are small conservative like minded denominations, such as the Polish National Catholic Church and the Union of Scranton it formed after being expelled from the Union of Utrecht, as well as churches with congregational polities, bylaws allowing us to easily take control, and nice buildings.      There are some UCC congregations with lovely buildings that have so few members left; if suddenly we sent in 40 or so Orthodox within a year we might be able to upgrade the quality of accommodations in some of the cities where our parishioners are worshipping in office blocks. 

But seriously, I think you can see, and we can agree, that there are two problems here: the modernist pressure on the Church of Finland, which is external and political in nature, and allows Metropolitan Ambrosius the freedom to attempt something like this that he would not dare try in another jurisdiction, and what is more, ecumenical dialogues that have been fruitless for years coming back to bite us like undead zombies when a bishop like the Metropolitan uses them as a vehicle to introduce a modernizing agenda.

Lastly, on the subject of troubling images, I share my sentiment in the disgust at those who mocked the female bishop for her appearance, as stated above.  However, I found a disturbing image showing Metropolitan Ambrosius wearing the purple clergy shirt popular among Anglican primates and indeed worn by his Lutheran counterpart, with a Greek stovepipe hat, without the customary veil over the back of his head which is appropriate to his office.  Now I don't mind Orthodox clergy using clerical collars in chaplaincy situations and in Western countries where they need to make it clear "Im a priest and I'm here to help."  But he should wear headgear appropriate to his office.

To keep this thread focused on discussing the OP and free from the debate that is forbidden on this section of the forum, I have posted my reply here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg1263697.html#msg1263697

 

[Mor Ephrem]

I find the emphasis on her looks in some of these posts to be really off-putting and uncharitable.

Two posts. Two posts that focus on the looks of the woman bishop- and really, is "crazy eyes" all that much of a comment- plus one post commenting on comments in the article itself. The rest of the emphasis on looks here in the forum have been comments on a completely unrelated picture and perfectly within acceptable levels of male Lenten innuendo.

Why comment on it at all?

That, I don't know. I just thank the good Lord for Lovesupreme calling attention to the horrific comments previously made and the subsequent posting of a more edifying image.

Lovesupreme is wonderful.

 

[mike]

The bigger problem with her is that being Lutheran, not being, hmm, her. unfortunately inviting non-Orthodox officials into altar as a form of giving respect is widey spread.

However, I found a disturbing image showing Metropolitan Ambrosius wearing the purple clergy shirt popular among Anglican primates and indeed worn by his Lutheran counterpart, with a Greek stovepipe hat, without the customary veil over the back of his head which is appropriate to his office.  Now I don't mind Orthodox clergy using clerical collars in chaplaincy situations and in Western countries where they need to make it clear "Im a priest and I'm here to help."  But he should wear headgear appropriate to his office.

You haven't seen bishops in various situations often, have you?

 

[wgw]

I've not seen one wearing an unveiled klobuk.  In fact in churches following Slavonic traditions of vesture the veil should be permanently sewn into the klobuk.  And a priest in that tradition, to which the Finnish church subscribes somewhat (their senior prelate is an archbishop rather than a Metropolitan following the Greek ranking scheme, but he wears the white veiled klobuk of a Slavonic metropolitan prelate), should arguably wear a flat topped rather than a stovepipe hat.  And as for the purple episcopal clergy shirt, one rarely sees Orthodox bishops wearing them.  In fact the real problem was the episcopal clergy shirt was the only indicator of his rank.

 

[Aristobolus]

A very prescient, and humble post.  Lord have mercy.

 

[podkarpatska]

Good heavens, 'should wear this, don't wear that.'

In the USA purple piping on the inside seam or even the livings of Bishop's cassocks is somewhat common. My bishop rarely, wears a klobuk or a kamilavka, we are Slavs and he's a Greek. The 'know it all' posting of some here is mind boggling. The seemingly constant derailments of threads from the questions posed in the initial post is off-putting to say the least.

 

[wgw]

I apologize profusely Podkarpatska if I have annoyed or offended you with my conduct on this thread.  I'd like you to take a clock at the vesture of the Metropolitan in the linked article, and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

Were not talking about the lining or seam of an exorason or even a Latin style cassock, nor a purple zostikon.  Rather, he's wearing a clergy shirt, or rather, a purple dress shirt with a white clerical collar insert tab, in exactly the same style as the Finnish Lutheran Archbishop, of the sort favored among Anglican bishops.  And he's wearing the stovepipe cap without a detachable veil, like a priest; my understanding was that the veil covering the back of the head was obligatory for Eastern Orthodox monastics, male and female. 

I care deeply about the Finnish Church and little details like vesture have in the past been signifigant in the history of Orthodox Christianity.  Recall at around the time of the Great Schism the papal indignation at the bearded Orthodox clergy and their refusal to adapt to the clean shaven look that had come to dominate the West.  Or the lack of vesture on the part of the iconoclasts.  Or more recently the forcible shaving of Old Calendarist clergy in Hreece during the Junta.  These little details do matter when discussing the lamentable case of a Metropolitan who made an ecumenical gesture which while commendable in spirit, screamed of rennovationism and offended many, which is undesirable in Lent.

 

[Peacemaker]

Helsinki, March 8, 2015

Metropolitan Ambrosius of Helsinki Sparks Controversy by Inviting Female Lutheran bishop Irja Askola to Altar during Clergy Ordination

Metropolitan Ambrosius of Helsinki (L) Archbishop Leo of Karelia & All Finland (R)
   

Orthodox Metropolitan Ambrosius of Helsinki of the Finnish Orthodox Church invited Female Evangelical Lutheran bishop Irja Askola to Altar with him during Clergy ordination at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. This has sparked much controversy.

Lutheran Bishop Irja Askola Lutheran Bishop Irja Askola
   

He also ordered the Deacons to pray for the Lutheran woman bishop during litany. This has angered several Orthodox faithful.

Archbishop Leo- Primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church has condemned the incident and has asked Metropolitan to clarify the issue before considering any measures against him.

Major Finnish newspapers have reported the incident. Archbishop Leo have released an official statement on the controversial incident which is available at the official website of the Finnish Church.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/77767.htm

 

[PeterTheAleut]

This news has already been reported here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,63929.0.html

 

[Peacemaker]

This news has already been reported here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,63929.0.html

Oops, my bad, sorry

 

[Pravoslavac]

Women should not be priests..Lord have mercy.

+1

In our Holy Tradition, there have never been women priests. Why should we start now?
Not even the Theotokos, the most blessed of all women, was ordained a priest.

It thrills me to see courageous women like yourself standing up against women's ordination.  We need more of you.  There is a United Methodist minister named Jeremy Smith, who on his blog "Hacking Christianity," referred to all churches that don't ordain women, including ours, obviously, as misogynistic.  It was people like him that made me leave the Methodist church.  Actually in my childhood my Methodist parish briefly had a liberal female minister whose antics horrified me so much, I've been against the ordination of women to the Presbyteriate and episcopate since I was 7.  But because I'm a man, it looks like I'm being misogynist or sexist, when it's not that at all.

You're not misogynist just like respecting traditional gender roles is not either. God created men and women with different roles and they are beautiful. It's unfortunate that some feminists can't see this beauty and turn it into something negative.

You are brainwashed by fundametalists.