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Met Hilarion (Alfeyev): No Sacraments at all among Schismatics

Irish Hermit

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Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk:
“It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”

6.10.2010

Full article is at
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

 

mike

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A slap to all who accuse the MP of irenicism.
 

ialmisry

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Father, I vaguely remember you posting the letter of resignation from a Ukrainian jurisdiction in North America, in which he comes to the same conclusion and sought to be received by the OCA as a layman.  Do you recall that?
 

Irish Hermit

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ialmisry said:
Father, I vaguely remember you posting the letter of resignation from a Ukrainian jurisdiction in North America, in which he comes to the same conclusion and sought to be received by the OCA as a layman.  Do you recall that?
Yes, I believe that was His Excellency Metropolitan Andrei Shawn Brennan, and a forum search ought to turn up his letter.
 

Schultz

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ialmisry said:
Father, I vaguely remember you posting the letter of resignation from a Ukrainian jurisdiction in North America, in which he comes to the same conclusion and sought to be received by the OCA as a layman.  Do you recall that?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21921.msg333241.html#msg333241
 

ialmisry

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Irish Hermit said:
ialmisry said:
Father, I vaguely remember you posting the letter of resignation from a Ukrainian jurisdiction in North America, in which he comes to the same conclusion and sought to be received by the OCA as a layman.  Do you recall that?
Yes, I believe that was His Excellency Metropolitan Andrei Shawn Brennan, and a forum search ought to turn up his letter.
Ah, yes

Metropolitan Archbishop in Ontario, Canada, of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the U.S.A. Born Shawn Patrick Brennan. Also known as Most Reverend Andrei SP Brennan. Ordained Deacon, Ajpril, 1993. Ordained Priest, Greek Orthodox Church, May, 1994. Archimandrite, November, 1995. Bishop, Holy United Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church of North America (now part of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church), June 12, 1998. Archbishop of London, Ontario and All Canada and Primate, Orthodox Church in Canada, 1999. Metropolitan ARchbishop, February, 2000-Current. Noted for his efforts to establish an English-speaking Orthodox Church in Ontario.
http://www.havelshouseofhistory.com/Autographs%20of%20Religious%20Leaders%20AM-ANE.htm

Irish Hermit said:
ialmisry said:
+ANDREI (Bazilsky-Brennan), in 1999 was the chief ordaining Bishop of +YAROSLAW Michael (Sereda).

Upon Archbishop +ANDREI abdicating, resigning and vacating the offices of Archbishop of Toronto and Metropolitan of all Canada within the Orthodox Church of Canada (Ukrainian Autocephalous Mission Archeparchy)and office of St. Alexis Toth Orthodox Seminary on the thirty-first day of December 2000,
The resignation notice of Andrei Brennan....  
Note his reason for leaving ~ he is tired out from being in a faux Church and cannot maintain the pretence any longer.

MIR V'SIM - PEACE TO ALL!
Glory to Jesus Christ! Slava Isusu Khrystu!

Effective December 31, 2000 (January 13, 2001 New Style), I will be
retiring from my office of Metropolitan and bishop in our church, and
removing myself from the membership of the Orthodox Church of Canada
(Ukrainian Autocephalous Mission Archeparchy).  An election will be held
on that date by the All-Canadian Sobor to replace me.

After years of struggling in the "independent movement", I have finally
decided to stop resisting my true vocation to belong and serve in
canonical Orthodoxy.
 I hope to be received into the membership of the
Canadian Archdiocese of the Orthodox Church in America shortly following
my retirement from my current position.

I am truly sorry if this move on my part is hurtful, disappointing, or
scandalous to members and/or friends of our church.  Know that I am
personally miserable in this role, and have been for several years.

This move on my part is vocational and faith-oriented, and reflects more
the needs and aspirations of my soul than anything anyone of you has done
or failed to do.

I thank God for the many blessings and friendships He has graciously
given me these last several years, and I hope and pray that my successor and
the continuing clergy and faithful of the OCC(UAMA) find peace.

Thank-you all who have supported me in this difficult and onerous
position.  May God bless you abundantly!
In Christ's Love,

+Metropolitan ANDREI
 

Alpo

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Is this the same metropolitan which was recenty mocked as heretic and ecumenist by some Russian faithful?

His Grace's stand is pretty interesting since it's coming from MP and I've understanded that historically MP has deemed at least RC's sacraments as valid and grace-conferring.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk:
“It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”
Booyah!  ;D
 

tuesdayschild

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"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
 

IXOYE

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tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
I agree.  It is very, very confusing.  It sounds like something more from a press office than a cleric.
 

Second Chance

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IXOYE said:
tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
I agree.  It is very, very confusing.  It sounds like something more from a press office than a cleric.
It is confusing if these two quotes are read in isolation. However, if one reads the entire interview, one will immediately see the work of the Holy Spirit that has and is guiding the ROC. And, with the kind indulgence of the Moderators, here is the relevant portion of the interview (my emphasis):

"- Did you discuss the recognition of ‘sacraments’ administered by schismatics? What is your attitude to this issue?

(Metropolitan Hilarion): This issue has been repeatedly discussed both in private talks of the Commission members and at the meeting. The Church does not recognize and cannot recognize as grace-giving and salvific any ‘sacraments’ including Baptism administered in a schism. This is a common point of view confirmed by many testimonies of the church Tradition. ‘Recognition of schismatics’ sacraments’ is an altogether improper expression which can be only misleading. The point here is not a diplomatic manifestation of politeness but attempts to impose on the Orthodox the recognition of a real presence of saving grace outside the Church. For the Church, the authenticity of Sacraments is a matter of salvation. It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.

However, as His Beatitude Vladimir, Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine, has stressed, ‘the schismatics’ return to the saving fold of the Church can put life into their graceless actions’. When schismatics come back to the Church, it is a normal practice to embrace holy Baptism. But if the Church deems it necessary and if it is helpful for healing a schism, she can in some cases provide a different procedure, as was the case on repeated occasions in history.

The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public. As far as the Sacrament of Baptism is concerned, it is impossible to administer it to all the laity coming back from a schism. Indeed, some of them do not even remember in which church they were baptized, canonical or schismatic.

Besides, there are situation where, for instance, a schismatic priest comes back to the Church together with his parishioners. The subsequent ‘re-baptism’ of the parishioners he had baptized earlier cannot be stipulated for his return, just as a ‘re-marriage’ of those whom he had married earlier or ‘re-funeral’ of all the dead over whom the burial service had been said before. It is impossible to force a priest who was now ordained in a canonical Church to return to their parishioners and say to them: ‘Everything I have done here for ten (or twenty) years was a deception, and only now I will begin doing everything in the real way’. People will not understand it and will not believe him. For all I know, they can think he decided to get the money for the second time for the sacraments he had already administered.

It is about such situations that it is stated that the Church can breathe a grace-giving power into the graceless actions of the schismatics and to inform with grace what had been only an empty and graceless form. In other words, the question of recognizing schistatics’ sacraments is not posed at all out of context of their return from the schism. But the question of a procedure of acceptance form a schism can and must be posed. And here, depending on the situation, various approaches can be applied."
 

Heorhij

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Well, here are the exact words said recently by the prelate of the "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate), Metr. +VOLODYMYR (Sabodan) (I am quoting from a "Ukrainian" web page maintained by the Donetsk oblast' Orthodox, of course in Russian):

"Наши умы не должны занимать размышления о том, действительны или нет "таинства", совершенные в расколе. Мы должны еще и еще раз повторить мысль, высказанную нашим сопредседателем Высокопреосвященнейшим Владыкой Иларионом на прошлом заседании: внешняя форма таинства, совершенного в расколе, в случае возвращения раскольников в лоно Церкви, наполняется благодатной силой и уже не повторяется. Такой подход может применяться в случае реального прогресса в деле уврачевания раскола в Украине и касаться, прежде всего, вопроса о Таинстве Крещения." http://www.ortodox.donbass.com/news/201009/slovo.htm

Translation: "Our minds should not be bothered by thoughts, whether the "sacraments" of schismatics are real or not. Time and again, we should repeat the words said by our co-chair (of a special commission that aims at liquidating schisms in the Orthodox Church. --H.), His High Eminence Vl. Illarion (Alfeyev): the outward form of the Sacrament, performed in the schism, in the event that the faithful returns to the Church, is being filled with the force of grace, and therefore should not be repeated. This approach can be instrumental for a real progress in healing of the schism in Ukraine, and is, first and foremost, about the Sacrament of Baptism."

So there is no need to baptize the "schismatics" again if they return to the canonical jurisdiction. Interesting. 180 degree turn from what Vl. +VOLODYMYR said before...
 

deusveritasest

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tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
It's called double-talk.
 

stanley123

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Irish Hermit said:
Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk:
“It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?


 

deusveritasest

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stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
 

Fabio Leite

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tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
1) It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics;

2) We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church;

3) Therefore, the Catholic Church is not considered to be schismatic.

This, of course, if we take these two statements, made in very different contexts, to the letter. That one is before and the other after the  meeting for Catholic-Orthodox dialogue may also simply reveal a change of view after a better understanding of the RC politics.

The problem is this: today, even if hierachs of the RC or the Church believe that their own community is the true church and the other is a schismatic, they cannot say this publicaly. Both are under assalt by secularism and it would surmount to show a divided resistance, since, despite not being one Church, they are one civilization, the cultural Christians. It means that we cannot say if they truly believe that the separation is merely socio-cultural and political, or if they see the great spiritual chasm that still exists between the two communities. Whether they are in one ground or the other, they will be ambiguous about it. Both those who would be straightforward with saying there is no relevant difference, and those who would say there is are considered to be radical fanatics and by default non-participants in such dialogues.

In terms of realpolitik, RC and Orthodox dialogues consists basically in each one trying to sweettalk the other about their own interest: for the RC expanding and if possible universalizing the Unia, for the Orthodox to prevent its expansion and if possible ending it.

The problem for us here is that the RC are trying to do something and we are trying to prevent it. They are doing something and we are trying to convince them to stop. Actions speak louder than words and have more effects too. They can always say they will rebuke proselytizers in the Orthodox world and actually do it, as long as they keep the "good work". They will simply say "well, we tried to tell them to stop, but.. what disobedient lot they are!" and roll their eyes.

The only proper reaction would be to simply grow in traditionally RC lands, like Latin-America. "Oh, don't you believe that we are the same with just a couple of social-political and organizational hiccups? Why bother then? We tell them to stop, but they simply keep growing.. what disobedient lot they are!"
 

stanley123

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deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
 

ialmisry

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stanley123 said:
deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
So?

Until if and when any of the above embrace Orthodoxy, their "sacraments" are not the concern of Orthodoxy. If any of the above were concerned about what Orthodoxy thinks, they would seek to embrace Orthodoxy.
 

Alpo

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stanley123 said:
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
Why you separate the RC's and the Melkite Catholics?
 

stanley123

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Alpo said:
stanley123 said:
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
Why you separate the RC's and the Melkite Catholics?
One is latin rite, the other is Eastern rite, but close to the Orthodox in some ways.
 

stanley123

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ialmisry said:
stanley123 said:
deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
So?

Until if and when any of the above embrace Orthodoxy, their "sacraments" are not the concern of Orthodoxy. .
But the title of the thread says :Met Hilarion (Alfeyev):  No Sacraments at all among Schismatics.
So according to a weighty Orthodox declaration this is the concern of the Orthodox. Your opinion is not as weighty.
 

ialmisry

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stanley123 said:
ialmisry said:
stanley123 said:
deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
So?

Until if and when any of the above embrace Orthodoxy, their "sacraments" are not the concern of Orthodoxy. .
But the title of the thread says :Met Hilarion (Alfeyev):  No Sacraments at all among Schismatics.
So according to a weighty Orthodox declaration this is the concern of the Orthodox. Your opinion is not as weighty.
Neither is Met. Zizoulas'.
The only reason Met. Hilarion had to make such a declaration is because groundless and baseless declarations were being made in the name of the Orthodox:
- Your Eminence, some participants in the Joint Commission for Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue in Vienna have stated a promising progress made on the way to unity. How far does the Russian Orthodox Church share this assessment?
I Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.
 

deusveritasest

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stanley123 said:
Irish Hermit said:
Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk:
“It is impossible to speak of ‘the recognition of the sacraments’ administered by schismatics”
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
Essentially, yes.

You seem to be acting as if you are shocked. Why?

I personally would say the same thing about everyone except the canonical Oriental Orthodox churches.
 

deusveritasest

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stanley123 said:
Alpo said:
stanley123 said:
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
Why you separate the RC's and the Melkite Catholics?
One is latin rite, the other is Eastern rite, but close to the Orthodox in some ways.
With regard to the Church being visible and communal, they are one with the Latins and separate from the "Orthodox".

Also, the phrase "Roman Catholic" has been used to refer to all in communion with Rome (those of Eastern rites included), even by the Pope himself.

Therefore, for the sake of avoiding confusion, it would be better to avoid the definition of "Roman Catholic" you are using and simply say "Latin Catholic" instead.
 

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deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Alpo said:
stanley123 said:
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
Why you separate the RC's and the Melkite Catholics?
One is latin rite, the other is Eastern rite, but close to the Orthodox in some ways.
With regard to the Church being visible and communal, they are one with the Latins and separate from the "Orthodox".

Also, the phrase "Roman Catholic" has been used to refer to all in communion with Rome (those of Eastern rites included), even by the Pope himself.

Therefore, for the sake of avoiding confusion, it would be better to avoid the definition of "Roman Catholic" you are using and simply say "Latin Catholic" instead.
OK
 

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ialmisry said:
Neither is Met. Zizoulas'.
The only reason Met. Hilarion had to make such a declaration is because groundless and baseless declarations were being made in the name of the Orthodox:
- Your Eminence, some participants in the Joint Commission for Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue in Vienna have stated a promising progress made on the way to unity. How far does the Russian Orthodox Church share this assessment?
"A Christian spring is just about to arrive," [Met. Hilarion] said. "The 21st century will see the divisions between Christians healed and a rebirth of the faith, gift of God, just as it was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Fathers."
http://www.zenit.org/article-30555?l=english

Maybe not so baseless.
 

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I'm wondering if Metropolitan Hilarion is quietly backing away from his earlier statements.
 

ialmisry

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tuesdayschild said:
ialmisry said:
Neither is Met. Zizoulas'.
The only reason Met. Hilarion had to make such a declaration is because groundless and baseless declarations were being made in the name of the Orthodox:
- Your Eminence, some participants in the Joint Commission for Orthodox-Catholic Dialogue in Vienna have stated a promising progress made on the way to unity. How far does the Russian Orthodox Church share this assessment?
"A Christian spring is just about to arrive," [Met. Hilarion] said. "The 21st century will see the divisions between Christians healed and a rebirth of the faith, gift of God, just as it was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Fathers."
http://www.zenit.org/article-30555?l=english

Maybe not so baseless.
The pope of Rome can renounce Paster Aeternas at any time.
 

stanley123

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deusveritasest said:
I personally would say the same thing about everyone except the canonical Oriental Orthodox churches.
So there are no Sacraments in the Eastern Orthodox Church according to you. Do you have any declarations which carry any weight which would back that up?
 

deusveritasest

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stanley123 said:
deusveritasest said:
I personally would say the same thing about everyone except the canonical Oriental Orthodox churches.
So there are no Sacraments in the Eastern Orthodox Church according to you. Do you have any declarations which carry any weight which would back that up?
Indeed. Note also that I try to avoid (as much as reasonably possible) even referring to it as Orthodox.

Not that I know of. I'm rather new to OOy. And being how highly ecumenical many OO hierarchs have been for the past 50 years, I would be surprised if they are not avoiding saying what they believe in that matter. But it seems like the logical implication of us not being in communion and the reality of extra ecclesium nulla sallus.
 

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When schismatics become Orthodox their sacraments will become Mysteries
 

deusveritasest

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observer said:
When schismatics become Orthodox their sacraments will become Mysteries
When schismatics become Orthodox their ordinances will become Sacraments.
 

Twenty Nine

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tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
Is +Hilarion speaking of the Catholic Church or "GOC"/"TOC" russian Orthodox groups when he speaks of schismatics?
 

Heorhij

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stanley123 said:
deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
Is this an authoritative declaration or just an opinion by one person?
Well, he is a bishop. His word has significantly more weight than a layman.

stanley123 said:
Also, who is considered to be schismatic? For example, would it include:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox?
Roman Catholics?
Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Melkite Catholics?
All of the above (most likely from his perspective, that is, not my own).
So in other words, according to a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration the following Churches do not have any Sacraments at all:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
According to "a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration," at one time or other such Orthodox jurisdictions as the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of Ellada, the Moscow Patriarchy, and other, "did not have any Sacraments at all."
 
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tuesdayschild said:
"It is impossible and senseless to speak of ‘recognition of sacraments’ administered by schismatics who stay outside the Church and have no communion with her.  ...  The Church will never recognize schismatics’ ordinations, and all the clergy who come back from a schism should be ordained, though it is not at all necessary to make it in public."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2010/10/06/news27421/

"We recognize the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. If a Catholic priest moves over to Orthodoxy we accept him as priest."
http://www.mospat.ru/en/2009/12/14/news10180/

I am very, very confused.
Yup.

I get this double talk here, too.
 

deusveritasest

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WetCatechumen said:
I get this double talk here, too.
Surprise! There are plenty of believers in the EOC and OOC who don't have entirely orthodox understandings of the Church and its Sacraments.
 

stanley123

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Heorhij said:
According to "a significantly weighty Orthodox declaration," at one time or other such Orthodox jurisdictions as the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, the Orthodox Church of Ellada, the Moscow Patriarchy, and other, "did not have any Sacraments at all."
So let's see if I've got this straight:
The following Churches do not have (or at one time did not have) any Sacraments according to significantly weighty Orthodox declarations:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Melkite Catholics
Bulgarian Orthodox Church,
Orthodox Church of Ellada,
Moscow Patriarchy.
Is that correct?
 

deusveritasest

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stanley123 said:
So let's see if I've got this straight:
The following Churches do not have (or at one time did not have) any Sacraments according to significantly weighty Orthodox declarations:
Again, obviously I am answering for a traditional canonical "Eastern Orthodox", as I am no longer part of that tradition.

stanley123 said:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Melkite Catholics
These are all pretty much a given.

stanley123 said:
Macedonian Orthodox Church
I have heard once or twice divergent opinions on this, but it would seem to be the logical conclusion.

stanley123 said:
Bulgarian Orthodox Church,
That seems like it was the case, that they were schismatic at one point.

stanley123 said:
Orthodox Church of Ellada,
What is that?

stanley123 said:
Moscow Patriarchy.
Why the MP?
 

stanley123

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deusveritasest said:
stanley123 said:
So let's see if I've got this straight:
The following Churches do not have (or at one time did not have) any Sacraments according to significantly weighty Orthodox declarations:
Again, obviously I am answering for a traditional canonical "Eastern Orthodox", as I am no longer part of that tradition.

stanley123 said:
Ukrainian Orthodox Church, KP
Oriental Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Melkite Catholics
These are all pretty much a given.

stanley123 said:
Macedonian Orthodox Church
I have heard once or twice divergent opinions on this, but it would seem to be the logical conclusion.

stanley123 said:
Bulgarian Orthodox Church,
That seems like it was the case, that they were schismatic at one point.

stanley123 said:
Orthodox Church of Ellada,
What is that?

stanley123 said:
Moscow Patriarchy.
Why the MP?
So if a Unkrainian Orthodox KP Christian were to approach a Greek Orthodox priest for Holy Communion, he would be denied since he was never baptised and never chrismated and never absolved of his sins? Similarly it is forbidden for a Greek Orthodox to receive Holy Communion in a Ukrainian Orthodox KP Church?
 
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