Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!

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serb1389

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http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/04/metropolitan-jonah-ecumenical.html

Monday April 6, 2009
Categories: Orthodoxy
For Orthodox Christian readers, I have a big international news story to report from Dallas. You might have read the red-hot shots a representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew took at the OCA Metropolitan Jonah recently, as part of the EP's plan for all American Orthodox Christians to submit to the headship of the EP, who is based in a compound in Istanbul.

Well. Last night at Pan-Orthodox Vespers here at St. Seraphim Cathedral here in Dallas, Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA responded. Watch his sermon here. It's a bombshell that will rock the Orthodox world. Concluding line: "We might affirm to our bishops that they might tell the churches of the Old World: 'There is an American Orthodox Church. Leave it alone.'"

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4812572/12841013
 

Irish Hermit

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Below is a link to a video of the sermon of Metropolitan Jonah last evening at the Pan-Orthodox Vespers at St. Seraphim Orthodox Cathedral in Dallas. It's about 23 minutes long and offers both a response to the proposal to unite the Orthodox jurisdictions in North America under the Patriarch of Constantinople and a vision for Orthodox unity in North America.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4812572/12841013

(This has been mentioned on one or two Orthodox boards.  I have not seen it;  my computer is too slow,  Would be interested to hear people's thoughts.)

 

ialmisry

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serb1389 said:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/04/metropolitan-jonah-ecumenical.html

Monday April 6, 2009
Categories: Orthodoxy
For Orthodox Christian readers, I have a big international news story to report from Dallas. You might have read the red-hot shots a representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew took at the OCA Metropolitan Jonah recently, as part of the EP's plan for all American Orthodox Christians to submit to the headship of the EP, who is based in a compound in Istanbul.

Well. Last night at Pan-Orthodox Vespers here at St. Seraphim Cathedral here in Dallas, Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA responded. Watch his sermon here. It's a bombshell that will rock the Orthodox world. Concluding line: "We might affirm to our bishops that they might tell the churches of the Old World: 'There is an American Orthodox Church. Leave it alone.'"

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4812572/12841013
An ecclesiastical Monroe Doctrine it seems.

I like that he explicitely mentioned the WRO as Orthodox (the OCA doesn't at present have WRO).

I like that he underlined the Amerindian Orthodox.

Also that he said that it was not just "joining the OCA," but a new reorganization.

His point on Kosovo shows the need for a strong united voice.

I like the respect he showed to the Holy Fathers, as he says.

He didn't pull any punches.  Any EP people in attendance?

Any reason why that meeting will be in Cyprus, not Constantinople?

Ironic that, as his beatitude points out, those few parishes that did not recognize the American bishops from Russia, a thing the Chief Secretary condemns, are the very foundation on which the EP's claims rest.
 

SolEX01

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::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).  ::)
 

ialmisry

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SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?

Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Brookline first, monastitc to archimandirite.
 

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ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?
I surrounded that line with the sarcastic smilies since the EP placed the Elder Ephraim Monasteries in the USA and the monastics (future Bishops of GOA and other entities, BTW) could teach Met. Jonah a thing or two about respect.  Again, the comment was pure sarcasm; I agree with everything Met. Jonah said even though I didn't see the video.  :)

ialmisry said:
Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Worchester first, monastitc to archimandirite.
What's in Worcester?  ???
 

SolEX01

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serb1389 said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
I don't think that Elder Ephraim wants to corrupt his monasticism and holiness.   ;) :) :)
Except if He's feeling threatened from a former monastic now Hierarch.  After all, what if the buses stopped showing up to the Monasteries?
 

serb1389

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SolEX01 said:
serb1389 said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
I don't think that Elder Ephraim wants to corrupt his monasticism and holiness.   ;) :) :)
Except if He's feeling threatened from a former monastic now Hierarch.  After all, what if the buses stopped showing up to the Monasteries?
Yah like THAT's gona happen.  Did you know that they come by the busloads from Canada?  Didn't u know that Canada is still in the 40's...? ;) ;D ;D
 

serb1389

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ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?

Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Worchester first, monastitc to archimandirite.
Yah I lost you here...
 

ialmisry

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SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?
I surrounded that line with the sarcastic smilies since the EP placed the Elder Ephraim Monasteries in the USA and the monastics (future Bishops of GOA and other entities, BTW) could teach Met. Jonah a thing or two about respect.  Again, the comment was pure sarcasm; I agree with everything Met. Jonah said even though I didn't see the video.   :)
I just wanted to fill in between the lines for the benefit of our viewers.

SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Worchester first, monastitc to archimandirite.
What's in Worcester?   ???
My bad.  Brookline.  Holy Cross College.  And I guess, at least, what, a month ago, the EP's Chief Secretary.
 

serb1389

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ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?
I surrounded that line with the sarcastic smilies since the EP placed the Elder Ephraim Monasteries in the USA and the monastics (future Bishops of GOA and other entities, BTW) could teach Met. Jonah a thing or two about respect.  Again, the comment was pure sarcasm; I agree with everything Met. Jonah said even though I didn't see the video.   :)
I just wanted to fill in between the lines for the benefit of our viewers.

SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Worchester first, monastitc to archimandirite.
What's in Worcester?   ???
My bad.  Brookline.  Holy Cross College.  And I guess, at least, what, a month ago, the EP's Chief Secretary.
Sorry still didn't understand your first point. 

As for your second point, Fr. Elpidoforos was at the school only for a week.  He then returned to Constantinople.  If Fr. Ephraim wants to visit there, or if Met. Jonah wants to visit there, they are more than welcome to. 

I was actually wondering if Met. Jonah would even be invited to the pan orthodox meeting in June anyway, since he is not recognized by the orthodox in the world as autocephalous.  interesting stuff. 
 

Second Chance

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Well, the gloves are off. Point and counterpoint have been made. I pray that any discussion on this forum will not degenerate into antagonisms. It is a given that some folks will disagree: I hope we will stay civil.

That said, I agree with Metropolitan Jonah. I also like that he made a point of conciliarity where the voices of the lower clergy and laity will not be suppressed or ignored (I am paraphrasing).
 

serb1389

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Second Chance said:
Well, the gloves are off. Point and counterpoint have been made. I pray that any discussion on this forum will not degenerate into antagonisms. It is a given that some folks will disagree: I hope we will stay civil.

That said, I agree with Metropolitan Jonah. I also like that he made a point of conciliarity where the voices of the lower clergy and laity will not be suppressed or ignored (I am paraphrasing).
You know...I really don't think it's gona happen.  Until about now I was gona respond very angrily to what you had just said.  But you know what...it is better for us to have fruitful dialogue than angry dialogue. 

I think there are a lot of problems in this speach.  Many holes and improper statements.  If he really means what he is saying, then he is just begging the patriarchates to say..."you know what, you're on your own"..."form your own church"..."be like HOCNA" or other schismatics, etc.  They could say these things and very easily b/c now he has put them in a corner.  It's us vs. them.  Not what I would say is a good move by an "orthodox" hierarch.  He himself made excuses for himself, saying that he had never been in this position before.  Then how can you sit up there and pontificate. He said that we don't have a pope and we don't need a pope under islamic rule...well...how about one from american liberalist democracy?    Anyway...maybe it's not the right time for this.  Did he think of that?  Did he just go out there and do what he wanted?  A lot of questions my friend...a lot of questions. 

 

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serb1389 said:
 

I think there are a lot of problems in this speach.  Many holes and improper statements.  If he really means what he is saying, then he is just begging the patriarchates to say..."you know what, you're on your own"..."form your own church"..."be like HOCNA" or other schismatics, etc.  They could say these things and very easily b/c now he has put them in a corner.  It's us vs. them.  Not what I would say is a good move by an "orthodox" hierarch.  He himself made excuses for himself, saying that he had never been in this position before.  Then how can you sit up there and pontificate. He said that we don't have a pope and we don't need a pope under islamic rule...well...how about one from american liberalist democracy?    Anyway...maybe it's not the right time for this.  Did he think of that?  Did he just go out there and do what he wanted?  A lot of questions my friend...a lot of questions. 
Agree.
 

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It makes me glad we're under Constantinople and I hope things stay that way.  The good news is that's what I've heard from the clergy.
 

Second Chance

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Serb my friend,

Thanks for your kind reply. I do wonder whether we can ever look at this from outside in. It seems to me that there are two diametrically opposed views and if one adheres to one, the other would be improper and wrong. This is a momentous time as, for the first time in many centuries, an argument of great ecclesiological import has started. I hope that the argument is an honest one and I hope it is conducted in a slightly higher plane than the tone and tenor of the Chief Secretary's point ("the so-called OCA") and Metropolitan Jonah's counterpoint (the Pope comment).

It may be useful to catalog the chief issues in this argument. I'll give a shot at starting one:

- Is North America a place of diaspora alone or a nation/country/province as the Early fathers had conceived where there are folks from other nations? Is the concept of diaspora applicable in today's flat earth (to use Tom Friedman's concept)?

- What does Canon 28 mean? Sub-topics:

(1) since the place of honor was ostensibly decided on the basis of political importance, how do the changed circumstances affect the order of honor?

(2) What is the correct interpretation of the last part of the canon? "And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him."

- What is autocephaly? Once given, can and should it be taken away?

- What is the proper Orthodox form of governance? Monarchical or conciliar? And, which form is sounder from a theological point of view?

- What is meant by "first among equals"?

 

ialmisry

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serb1389 said:
ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
SolEX01 said:
::) Time for the Elder Ephraim Monastics to pay a visit to Syosset and set the record straight from one monastic to another (e.g. Met Jonah).   ::)
Oh, what record would that be?
I surrounded that line with the sarcastic smilies since the EP placed the Elder Ephraim Monasteries in the USA and the monastics (future Bishops of GOA and other entities, BTW) could teach Met. Jonah a thing or two about respect.  Again, the comment was pure sarcasm; I agree with everything Met. Jonah said even though I didn't see the video.   :)
I just wanted to fill in between the lines for the benefit of our viewers.

SolEX01 said:
ialmisry said:
Given the "praise" that the Chief Secretary heaped on him, maybe the gerontas should go to Worchester first, monastitc to archimandirite.
What's in Worcester?   ???
My bad.  Brookline.  Holy Cross College.  And I guess, at least, what, a month ago, the EP's Chief Secretary.
Sorry still didn't understand your first point.
The Chief Secretary's speech was kinder to the Gerontas than to Met. Jonah or Met. Philip, only in that he didn't attact him by name.  At least he quoted the Metropolitan's, he only characterized, or caracturized, the Gerontas.


As for your second point, Fr. Elpidoforos was at the school only for a week.  He then returned to Constantinople.

Intereting. ::)

Was he in town just to lob grenades, or was there something useful on his agenda?

If Fr. Ephraim wants to visit there, or if Met. Jonah wants to visit there, they are more than welcome to.   

I was actually wondering if Met. Jonah would even be invited to the pan orthodox meeting in June anyway,
I doubt that his invitation got lost in the mail.  All that nonsense from the Chief Secretary over the EP's "concession" over autonmous Churches like Estonia indicates that.



since he is not recognized by the orthodox in the world as autocephalous. 
Actually, the majority of the Orthodox in the world recognize him as autocephalous.  And since NO ONE buys the EP's interpretation on canon 28 of Chalcedon, even those in his own patriarchate, Met. Jonah a bit up on him on that.

interesting stuff. 
Indeed.
 

ialmisry

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serb1389 said:
Second Chance said:
Well, the gloves are off. Point and counterpoint have been made. I pray that any discussion on this forum will not degenerate into antagonisms. It is a given that some folks will disagree: I hope we will stay civil.

That said, I agree with Metropolitan Jonah. I also like that he made a point of conciliarity where the voices of the lower clergy and laity will not be suppressed or ignored (I am paraphrasing).
You know...I really don't think it's gona happen.  Until about now I was gona respond very angrily to what you had just said.  But you know what...it is better for us to have fruitful dialogue than angry dialogue. 

I think there are a lot of problems in this speach.  Many holes and improper statements. 
Name one.
If he really means what he is saying, then he is just begging the patriarchates to say..."you know what, you're on your own"..."form your own church"..."be like HOCNA" or other schismatics, etc. 
You forget, as someone posted a while ago, Met. Jonah was given words of encouragement from the big enchilada himself, Pat. Kyrill.
Irish Hermit said:
His Holiness Patriarch Kirill refers to the "demons of feeble impertinence" - taken to be an understated and oblique reference to the speech at Holy Cross of the Chief Secretary of the Sacred Synod.
They could say these things and very easily b/c now he has put them in a corner.  It's us vs. them.  Not what I would say is a good move by an "orthodox" hierarch.  He himself made excuses for himself, saying that he had never been in this position before.  Then how can you sit up there and pontificate.
Because someone else thinks he is supreme pontiff, and it's not the hierarch in Old Rome (we know him).  As Met. Jonah said, if we wanted Ultramontanism, we should take it straight (paraphrased).

He said that we don't have a pope and we don't need a pope under islamic rule...well...how about one from american liberalist democracy? 
Oh, please.  Been to Athens lately?  The GOA owes its existence to Bp. Arbp. EP Pope Meletius acting as chaplain for "liberal democracy."

  Anyway...maybe it's not the right time for this.  Did he think of that?  Did he just go out there and do what he wanted?  A lot of questions my friend...a lot of questions. 
All answered: the Orthodox Church in America is a FACT.
 

ialmisry

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Second Chance said:
Serb my friend,

Thanks for your kind reply. I do wonder whether we can ever look at this from outside in. It seems to me that there are two diametrically opposed views and if one adheres to one, the other would be improper and wrong. This is a momentous time as, for the first time in many centuries, an argument of great ecclesiological import has started. I hope that the argument is an honest one and I hope it is conducted in a slightly higher plane than the tone and tenor of the Chief Secretary's point ("the so-called OCA") and Metropolitan Jonah's counterpoint (the Pope comment).

It may be useful to catalog the chief issues in this argument. I'll give a shot at starting one:

- Is North America a place of diaspora alone or a nation/country/province as the Early fathers had conceived where there are folks from other nations? Is the concept of diaspora applicable in today's flat earth (to use Tom Friedman's concept)?
I'm intrigued.  What is that concept?

I'd love to show where the idea of "diaspora" shows up in the Fathers.  I think they would find it an alien concept.

- What does Canon 28 mean? Sub-topics:

(1) since the place of honor was ostensibly decided on the basis of political importance, how do the changed circumstances affect the order of honor?

(2) What is the correct interpretation of the last part of the canon? "And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him."

- What is autocephaly? Once given, can and should it be taken away?

- What is the proper Orthodox form of governance? Monarchical or conciliar? And, which form is sounder from a theological point of view?

- What is meant by "first among equals"?
Can someone provide a single example of the EP's understanding of canon 28 from before the 20th century?
 
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