Metropolitan Jonah: Ecumenical Patriarch back off!

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Fr. George

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Schultz said:
I personally consider the inability to have a running seminary in one's own local diocese due to the explicit order of the ruling secular government (note, that part is italicized for a reason because I know full well not every diocese has its own seminary) and the fact that the ruling secular authority made it so within two generations or so there will probably be no acceptable candidate for Patriarch of Constantinople a "stranglehold", yes.  
Not exactly true.  The government didn't specifically shut down Halki - they made all religious schools of minority religions illegal.  But you're right at least in spirit on that point.  However, there are actually many who are/would be qualified candidates: bilingual Orthodox Christians with Turkish citizenship who live both in Turkey and in Greece (the latter group aren't usually included in "the numbers," which I'm skeptical of to begin with, but who could easily qualify).

I don't think there will be any extinction of the Patriarchate due to lack of qualified candidates for the EP office, because I think within the next generation the political climate will change, either for the better and the school will reopen and there will be more tolerance, or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
 

Irish Hermit

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cleveland said:
or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
Let the Patriarchate live and survive where it is.Shifting it elsewhere will bring about its extermination.

Source ::
http://voxstefani.blogspot.com/2007/07/further-constantinopolitan-thoughts.html

After news like those reported in my previous post surface, it generally
doesn't take too long for someone (usually in North America) to ask why
won't the Ecumenical Patriarchate just move out of Constantinople. After all
(so the reasoning goes) the Patriarchate of Antioch is now exiled in
Damascus; why couldn't the Patriarchate of Constantinople exile itself to,
say, Patmos or Thessalonica, both of which are under its jurisdiction,
finally putting behind itself this tedious, multisecular ordeal?


Well, grasshopper, this is because the Patriarch of Constantinople is, above
all, the real Bishop of a real flock in a real city. And while this flock,
through relentless repression and brutal ethnic cleansing, has dwindled in
less than a century from a flourishing 250,000 to a mere 5,000 cornered in a
single quarter of the once glorious Queen of Cities, they should on no
account be deprived of their Bishop. If the Patriarch chose to exile
himself, the godless Turkish government would never recognize his canonical
jurisdiction over his Constantinopolitan flock (seeing how they consider him
to be the head of the Greek community strictly in Turkey); and since no
other Bishop could be named to the See, the diocese would effectively be
orphaned. Also, given the Turkish modus operandi, one can imagine that
commemorating at the Divine Services the rightful (but exiled) Patriarch
would come to be considered a criminal act on Turkish soil, and so the stage
would be set for the final extermination of the last remaining pocket of the
native Greek population of Asia Minor. May God deliver us from that day!


Now, let us add a drop of utter delusion to an otherwise sensible (if, as we
have seen, enormously misguided) thought, courtesy of the Militant
Americanist OrthodoxTM (who are to be distinguished, of course, from normal
Orthodox Americans): why doesn't the Ecumenical Patriarch (again, like the
Patriarch of Antioch) exile himself, but by moving to the US instead? "That
way," say they, "we get undisputed autocephaly, and even a patriarch of our
own." (I can't tell if the author of this particular comment was serious, or
seriously thought he was offering the solution to end all solutions, or
what, but I have certainly heard that thought seriously expressed more than
once.)

Well, for a start, because the New World is not a part of the historic
canonical territory of the Ecumenical Patriarchate the way Damascus is part
of that of the Patriarchate of Antioch, so the situation would not really be
analogous (as it would be, for instance, if the Ecumenical Patriarchate
moved to Patmos). But further, for Patriarch Bartholomew to be the Primate
of an Autocephalous Orthodox Church in the Americas, he would have to be the
Bishop of a local diocese in the New World, even as he now is Archbishop of
Constantinople, and thus Primate of the Autocephalous Church of
Constantinople. Now, even if there suddenly came to be a single
Autocephalous Church in the Americas, and if Patriarch Bartholomew moved to
the US and became "Archbishop of Washington and Patriarch of the New World"
or some such, this new Church would be the last in the precedence of honor
among the world's Autocephalous Orthodox Churches, and its Primate (even if
he himself had been Ecumenical Patriarch before) would be the very last to
be commemorated in the diptychs by each of the Primates of the other
Churches. Which is to say that the Primate of an Autocephalous American
Orthodox Church would not be the new primus inter pares of the Orthodox
episcopacy; pride of place would go then to the Patriarch of Alexandria. So,
is that clear enough?

 

Fr. George

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Irish Hermit said:
cleveland said:
or for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
Let the Patriarchate live and survive where it is.Shifting it elsewhere will bring about its extermination.
Hardly.  The only way he would move, based on comments and discussions I had with him and with the deacons at the Patriarchate, is if they were on the brink of extinction anyway, such as if

cleveland said:
the political climate will change <snip> for the worse and the Patriarchate will move to northern Greece.
 

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"You can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs"

Forgive me.  I have been sitting on the fence reading these threads for far to long without saying a word.  The past few weeks have seen so much bad blood fly between people that are supposed to be brothers, and it saddens me when people are calling eachother imperialists and schismatics in a time when we are supposed to be looking inward at our own failures.  

This is a time of trial for us all.  The crudstorm that has been released in the past few weeks is heartrending, but not totally unpredictable.  Eventually, it comes to this:  how do we define liberty and unity in the Orthodox Church?  

Some have defined it as a link to the old Patriarchs, particulalrly Constantinople, is what makes us Orthodox.

Some have defined it as the jurisdisction of the local Bishop as what does.

Some have defined it as strict adhearance to the cannons.  

Some have defined it as the voice of the people.


I cannot speak for any of you, but I have believed since I converted and still believe that ALL are important...and then again, that none are.

Yes, the ties to the ancient sees and BROTHERHOOD with them, not subserviance to them, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, the local Bishop is a representative of Christ to his jurisdiction, along with the clergy and laity, within the tradition, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, understanding of the cannons and their practice is venerable and WITHIN the Holy Spirits call, and with the united understanding that some cannons are for some ages, and some are eternal, makes us Orthodox.

Yes, the people, under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Tradition, speaking in a united voice make us Orthodox.

But what truly make us Orthodox is FOLLOWING AND LIVING IN JESUS CHRIST AND GUIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, as the apostles taught us, wherein Saints are made, Martyrs Glorified, and new generations come to the alter to recieve Christ Jesus' Body and Blood that we migh perfect our imperfect selves.  

Mayhaps the solution I propose is one that will be unpopular, or seem oversimplistic.  I am not a great orator or analyst.  At this point, in many senses, I simply grow tired of the rehasing of old wars, as this new upheaval seems to bring on.  There have been moments when my faith in the Church has been shaken, and anger and sorrow filled my heart.  There may be yet days when this happens.  But I will be nowhere else because I believe in Jesus Christ, and I know that this is the way to worship him in the fullest.  Thats why Im here.  To better serve, and Pray.


And so, my proposal is simple.  We pray.  It may be a far stretch, but mayhaps what is needed is to ask God His opinion in His own Church, that he migh clear out imperfect minds and do what we humans are oft unwilling to: Listen.  Accept.  Be Obedient.  Love one another.  And forgive.  

In this land (US), we are Americans.  But we are all still learning what that means after all these years.  We know it means to be free, but that there is a price for freedom: Vigilance.  Elsewise, we fall back into slavery.  It is not culture, though we have our own, but common beliefs that hold us as a nation.  We hold common beliefs in Orthodoxy too.  God will conquer all with Love.  God loves us all.  We attempt to give purselves to Him fully and without reservation in our worship.  If we fall into sin, and do not get back up, we fall into slavery as well.  We must turn to Him to made, redeemed and sustains us to make things right.  For He knows everything about us.

Maybe its time for our bishops, ALL our bishops, to get together, pray, talk, and ask for forgiveness, of God and of eachother.  We've seen too many wars over jurisdictionalism.  Whatever the solition, we cannot remain as we are.  But above all, it must be God-pleasing.  Change is comeing.  And with it, a whirlwind of consequences.  Let us pray for perfect guidence from He who is Perfect.


Of course, thats just my opinion.


Forgive me, a sinner.  



       
 

Fr. George

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^ Ian Lazarus,
FYI: Someone's nominated you for Post of the Month for this post.
 

Second Chance

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cleveland said:
Sometimes you make great posts.  Sometimes you go trolling.  You should let us know which Isa we're going to experience at the beginning of the day, by PM or something, so we know whether or not we should read 'em.
Come on now: Is it necessary to resort to ad hominem attacks?
 

Second Chance

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username! said:
88Devin12 said:
Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...
If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.
I don't get it. Why is it necessary to pull rank like this? What possesses folks to tell others to sit down and shut up?
 

ialmisry

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Alveus Lacuna said:
ialmisry said:
Christ appears to St. Martin.
ACCORDINGLY, at a certain period, when he had nothing except his arms and his simple military dress, in the middle of winter, a winter which had shown itself more severe than ordinary, so that the extreme cold was proving fatal to many, he happened to meet at the gate of the city of Amiens a poor man destitute of clothing. He was entreating those that passed by to have compassion upon him, but all passed the wretched man without notice, when Martin, that man full of God, recognized that a being to whom others showed no pity, was, in that respect, left to him. Yet, what should he do? He had nothing except the cloak in which he was clad, for he had already parted with the rest of his garments for similar purposes. Taking, therefore, his sword with which he was girt, he divided his cloak into two equal parts, and gave one part to the poor man, while he again clothed himself with the remainder. Upon this, some of the by-standers laughed, because he was now an unsightly object, and stood out as but partly dressed. Many, however, who were of sounder understanding, groaned deeply because they themselves had done nothing similar. They especially felt this, because, being possessed of more than Martin, they could have clothed the poor man without reducing themselves to nakedness. In the following night, when Martin had resigned himself to sleep, he had a vision of Christ arrayed in that part of his cloak with which he had clothed the poor man. He contemplated the Lord with the greatest attention, and was told to own as his the robe which he had given. Ere long, he heard Jesus saying with a clear voice to the multitude of angels standing round -- "Martin, who is still but a catechumen, clothed me with this robe."
That was very moving.  You got me a little misty with that one.  Is this St. Martin of Tours?
Yes.  A little reminder that the Western Orthodox have their superstars too.
 

Seraphim98

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Actually I the original comment was meant as lighthearted banter that perhaps got taken a little more seriously than it was intended. I could be wrong.
 

ialmisry

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serb1389 said:
Irish Hermit said:
serb1389 said:
I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...
I'm grateful to you, especially because my dial-up at the end of the world is too slow to view the video.
I cut a back-room deal with ialmisry so you can thank him.  lol.   :D ;D
Well, I am raised in Chicago. LOL. ;D
 

ialmisry

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88Devin12 said:
Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)
Do I count for "other."  After all, I may have been received by the OCA, but I've never considered myself "American Orthodox."  And I haven't been in the OCA for nearly a decade, and both my children were baptized by Antiochian priests.
 

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ialmisry said:
88Devin12 said:
Ok... Is anyone noticing a pattern here? The only ones really arguing against the OCA are those that are members of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese or otherwise under the Ecumenical Patriarch... The only ones really arguing for it so far are OCA...
What do other Orthodox say? (and you cannot answer for others)
Do I count for "other."  After all, I may have been received by the OCA, but I've never considered myself "American Orthodox."  And I haven't been in the OCA for nearly a decade, and both my children were baptized by Antiochian priests.
We'll count you as Isadox. :D
 

ialmisry

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cleveland said:
Schultz said:
Do or do not the Turkish Islamic authorities have a veritable stranglehold on the activities of the Phanar?
They do not; the Patriarch's caution is mostly to prevent attacks by citizen groups rather than the Government, who in the past has sanctioned the Patriarchate (by not allowing the EP or other hierarchs to return to the country), but who of late has been reluctant to do so (part of the EU quest).  "Veritable stranglehold" isn't quite right; now, yes, the government does have a number of restrictions on the Patriarchate (they can't remove, for example, many of the manuscripts from the country, as they are considered historical items of the Turkish state), and since they don't recognize the Patriarchate as an entity property ownership is restricted.  But the EP's actions as Patriarch are not so severely limited - they do not interfere with the synod's selection of hierarchs (save the EP himself), nor with the internal operation of the Patriarchate (save the election of the EP himself), nor with the operation of the Patriarchate with regards to the rest of the Orthodox world (save the election of the EP himself).
Ecumenical Patriarch?

Don't you mean the (local) Greek Patriarch of the Fener, Fener Rum Patriği?
 

Second Chance

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cleveland said:
- Freedom is not an Orthodox principle, virtue, etc.  Orthodoxy exists and thrives where it wills to, under persecution, etc.  The only time when the Church has encouraged freedom is when the people were enslaved in their own countries!  And even in a few instances, local Churches have supported war erroneously, or in a short-sighted manner.  The American desire for freedom is frequently a desire for no oversight but self-oversight - a desire that contradicts a host of Christian principles and teachings, such as obedience, humility, spiritual guidance, collective correction & oversight, etc.
I believe that you are describing a historical pattern and not a doctrinal position. What do you make of the following:

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1

"31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." John 8:31-36

"20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it." 1 Corinthians 7:20-21

My point is that, while the status of our souls is infinitely more important, our civic status is not unimportant. You know the ancient Greeks introduced the idea of democracy, albeit in a limited fashion. United States of America went one better and over the years has become the ideal for the entire world. Even the Bolsheviks and the Maoists were compelled to emulate the American foundational documents. I happen to believe in American exceptionalism for various reasons that have no place in this thread. Suffice it to say that American ideals can complement Orthodox doctrine and piety. Indeed, I believe that Orthodoxy will become better when it becomes less old world and more American. As for "obedience, humility, spiritual guidance, collective correction & oversight," all of these traits were present and quite common at this nations founding. It is indeed ironic and tragic that the heterodox had them in as good measure as the Orthodox, with one significant difference: while the Heterodox Christians were free men and women in the late 18th century, almost all of Orthodox Christians were slaves or serfs.

Cleveland, you are a very good lemonade maker and you are skilled at dealing with all kinds of lemons thrown your way. At some point, I hope you will decide to move on to better things.
 

username!

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Second Chance said:
username! said:
88Devin12 said:
Quit trying to drag me into an argument again...
If you can't stand the heat then don't get in the debate... or rather focus on being a catechumen and preparing to become a member of the church instead.
I don't get it. Why is it necessary to pull rank like this? What possesses folks to tell others to sit down and shut up?
Maybe you need to re-read my post and see that no one said "sit down and shut up." Pull rank?  A catechumen is not a member of the church, rather one studying to become a part of the church.  There is so much to learn that getting wrapped up in politics and things that take away from learning the vast amount of knowledge it takes to be ready to be received as a member of the church that sometimes it is best for catechumens to just stay out of things that could take them off that path.  Catechumen-time is a period to learn and discern the faith.  Most disheartening to any new comer is politics (ie, this thread type stuff, parish council politics, etc..) and we like to see people stay in the church.  I've seen people leave because they were new to the faith, either as catechumens, inquirers or newly illumined because they, being young in the faith were shaken by the things that distract us from the true focus of the church, Christ.
 

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serb1389 said:
I finished my transposition of the speech onto "paper".  I hope you all find it accurate.  I'm sorry if this is not allowed by the forum.  I'm always a little hazy on attachments and such...
From the transcript (why didn't you post it outright?)

But we also have to appreciate the English and the Spanish and the French just as we have to appreciate the Klingot and the Aleut and the Upik and the Athabasken who are the true indigenous orthodox christians of our land. 
It's not Klingot, it's Tlingit.
 

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Schultz said:
AMM said:
The untruths and misrepresentations in the speech are sad and intended to engender fear and conflict.  It amazes me that people are lauding a hierarch for defaming another hierarch from the pulpit during Lent.
This is not the first time this has been noted in this thread.

I am curious to the substance of these "untruths and misrepresentations".
Me too.

I found the speech kind, polite, mild and well-tempered.

...the motives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in calling this Synod in Cyprus
AFAIK, what is called isn't Synod, where every Orthodox bishop will be entitled to participate, than some unknown body that existed never before in Orthodoxy (but is imagined by some to pass binding decisions, as if it was possible for such a non-existent body).
 

ialmisry

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Well, I read through the transcript, and I don't find anything inaccurate or misleading. Emphasized, for sure.  Singled out, yes.  But exaggerated, not really, let alone "lying."
 
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