Minor OO-related questions

Alpo

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Israelis had state's support, IIRC predujice against non-Hebrew speaking Jews and they needed a common language. Copts already speak Arabic, their state was conquered by Muslims and assumingly nobody looks down upon those who don't speak Coptic. :p
 

minasoliman

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Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.  However, if we can lobby the Egyptian government to have Muslims pick up enough pride for their own ancestral Coptic heritage with us, perhaps it might help with a revival of sorts.
 

Alpo

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minasoliman said:
Also in addition to state sponsor, I think Hebrew is somewhat of a religious requirement of a language.  Technically, in Orthodoxy, there is no linguistic requirement of the faith other than the vernacular for evangelical purposes.
In theory wheras reality on the other hand... :)
 

RaphaCam

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Not only state support and previous knowledge, Israelis really needed a common language. Most of them spoke Yiddish, but not all, and Yiddish was barely a written language. I mean, it already had books on it and a standard form, but it would only become a formal language as a community reaction to its being superposed by Hebrew.
 

rakovsky

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Question:
In terms of a worship service and church design and art, what is the most similar service to that of Syriac OOs:
Melkite Catholics
Antiochian EOs
Copts
Armenians
Indian Orthodox

And how much different is it?

Nearest Syriac church is like 2 hours from me, but am interested in the service.
 

rakovsky

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RaphaCam said:
I'm not OO but I could bet a hundred dollars on Indian Orthodox.
I guess you are right, so the next question is how close are they?

For example, the language and ethnicity for Syriacs and Antiochians is Semitic, while Indian Orthodox use Malayalam as the main language. Also, Indian Orthodox have unique Indian characteristics in art, architecture, and ritual.
 

NJC

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Hi all,

I am attending a Coptic Orthodox church at the moment, and one thing i want clarified is the use of Protestant-eque worship songs? At first i was a bit off by them, and now i don't mind them (even beginning to enjoy them), but i wouldn't mind knowing more about it. Is this a recent thing to engage youth in a modern style of worship? To combat Protestants? In my Church, we seem to go through at least a few of these songs every time we gather for prayer.
 

Volnutt

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Is this an example of despised electronic OO music? Because I have to say... I don't hate it.

Maybe it's just that this is an especially polished example?
 

Ainnir

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Volnutt said:
Is this an example of despised electronic OO music? Because I have to say... I don't hate it.

Maybe it's just that this is an especially polished example?
Despised is a bit strong (well, maybe not for some re: praise music ;D).  Either way, it's not a monolithic OO-wide question; there are separate "issues."  The Coptic Church is dealing with professionally produced Contemporary Christian Music seeping into their parishes in various ways.  This carries problems of teaching as well as musical ones; the lyrics of CCM (apart from just being bad), carry a different theology than do the hymns and prayers of the Orthodox Church.  Beyond that, when it's a theologically harmless song, like "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High," it's like eating air instead of meat on a couple different levels.  I personally wouldn't slam someone for listening to it outside of church, but would say to filter the messages like one filter messages in secular music.

The synthesizer mentioned on the other thread isn't the same thing.  I don't think the link you provided would be allowed in a service, but synthesizers are used in services--I don't know how broadly.  It appears to serve mainly a support function, though.  What you linked is beautiful, but because these are Orthodox hymns and prayers, the less accompanied and produced, the better.  Orthodox hymns and prayers are written specifically to instruct, edify, deepen reflection, and ultimately sanctify.  The question with the synthesizer seems more whether and to what extent it aids that purpose or distracts from it, but at least there is not a concern over theology.

Or something...  :laugh:
 

Volnutt

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Oh yes. I agree it's not nearly in the same ballpark as CCM. Sorry if I implied that.
 

Ainnir

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Volnutt said:
Oh yes. I agree it's not nearly in the same ballpark as CCM. Sorry if I implied that.
I may have misinterpreted. :D
 

Mor Ephrem

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When Annunciation occurs on a Sunday of Great Lent, as it does this year, does Annunciation get transferred to another day or does it take precedence over the Sunday?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Father Peter said:
The Gospel reading for this Sunday are Annunciation on the Coptic Reader App, which represents NA (and English speaking Globally) use.
Interesting...are there different traditions in the non-English speaking Coptic world?
 

Aram

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Mor Ephrem said:
When Annunciation occurs on a Sunday of Great Lent, as it does this year, does Annunciation get transferred to another day or does it take precedence over the Sunday?
In the Armenian tradition, Annunciation takes precedence over the lenten Sunday. This Sunday is an open liturgy, there's communion, the whole thing.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Re: https://www.stgeorgemn.org/church-vessels.html

This describes the book of the Gospels as contained within a metal box, but I’ve seen such boxes made of wood as well.  I recently acquired one made from wood, and I assumed I would be able to open the top of the box in order to insert a small book of the Gospels, but mine seems to have been sealed shut.  How likely is it that there is already a book inside and that is why it’s sealed shut?  Or am I supposed to pry it open somehow?  Or is it likely empty?
 

Alpha60

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Mor Ephrem said:
Re: https://www.stgeorgemn.org/church-vessels.html

This describes the book of the Gospels as contained within a metal box, but I’ve seen such boxes made of wood as well.  I recently acquired one made from wood, and I assumed I would be able to open the top of the box in order to insert a small book of the Gospels, but mine seems to have been sealed shut.  How likely is it that there is already a book inside and that is why it’s sealed shut?  Or am I supposed to pry it open somehow?  Or is it likely empty?
Is that a Coptic Gospel Book?  Is it an antique?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Alpha60 said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Re: https://www.stgeorgemn.org/church-vessels.html

This describes the book of the Gospels as contained within a metal box, but I’ve seen such boxes made of wood as well.  I recently acquired one made from wood, and I assumed I would be able to open the top of the box in order to insert a small book of the Gospels, but mine seems to have been sealed shut.  How likely is it that there is already a book inside and that is why it’s sealed shut?  Or am I supposed to pry it open somehow?  Or is it likely empty?
Is that a Coptic Gospel Book?  Is it an antique?
It’s definitely not an antique.  I think it’s a box which contains a Gospel book, or is supposed to, and I’ve seen examples in churches which one could open from the top and remove the book. 

The one I have seems to be sealed shut, and when I shake it, I cannot hear a book jostling around.  So I’m wondering if it’s meant to be opened or if it’s meant to be sealed and used as more of a ritual object.  I want to avoid prying it open unless I’m supposed to.
 

rakovsky

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Mor,
I read your messages as saying that in the Coptic tradition, the Gospel is kept in a wood or metal box called the Book of the Gospel. The website that you linked to said that there are certain identifying features of the boxes like having certain icons on it, and that the boxes are supposed to hold a four Gospels codex. The website said that it holds a copy of the four Gospels meaning that within the Book of the Gospel there is a four Gospels codex. Plus in that tradition the boxes are opened to get the book out.

It sounds like you are certain that this is the purpose of the box that you have, and that is not just a decorative icon set. In that case, the box may not have been cut yet to put a book inside. Or else there is a crack on the side where the box was originally cut and now it is too hard to get open, like an old lacquer box where the wood expanded and is stuck. One other possibility is that someone took the Gospel out, sealed it shut, and then sold it as a decorative item even though the original intended purpose was as a 4 Gospels book case. If it's all as you described, this is my best guess.

A purely practical solution in any of those instances would be to pry or cut open the box, and to do it along the crack if there is one.

Probably the best solution would be to show it to some Coptic clergy for their assessments.

I found a photo of one such book case box, a metal one, on the St. Mary's Coptic Church page:


In that photo, it looks like there is a clear lid, with the icon of the theotokos facing the camera on the top lid and the bottom with being opposite from the camera. The st. Mary Coptic website calls the Box a bookcase. In my experience in the Russian tradition the gospels that are used for the Liturgy are inside a metal case and that lid might have to actually be unlatched, but if you were looking at the side of the box with the Russian gospel inside, you would clearly see that it is a bookcase with a book inside and there is not really any way to seal it shut except to make the latch stick. The photo in the St Mary's picture is not really clear enough because it doesn't show the side of the bookcase, but it looks to me like the same kind of item that we have in the Russian church with a metal bookcase that is opened like a book, that is from the side as if there were a hinge on the other side.

Maybe the bookcase design that you are describing is much different than the Russian tradition and you are really talkin about a square box that opens up or opens forward instead of the Russian style where the case opens along the edge and to the side. The first thing to do in your case would be to look to see if there is a crack along the sides of the Box we're at some point that box had been opened.
 

Ainnir

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It’s the epic saga of the mysterious box.  :p
 

peterfarrington

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I was looking at the Gospel case on the altar in my church and I will take some pictures at the weekend and show you. It is a case with a small volume of the Gospels inside and has a symbolic value rather than being the Gospels which are used in the Church for reading. The metal, often silver, case, has a removable lid in all the examples I have seen so that a volume of the Gospels or the New Testament can be placed inside.
 
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