Monasticism - Catholicism and Orthodoxy

Papist

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Mickey said:
Irish Hermit said:
Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!
Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
 

Irish Hermit

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Papist said:
Mickey said:
Irish Hermit said:
Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!
Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.  :)
 

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Papist said:
Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  :eek:
 

Papist

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Mickey said:
Irish Hermit said:
Catholic Halloween Mass, with the Devil giving Communion:
Ouch! I have seen the clown Mass before, but the halloween Mass with the devil giving communion is horrifying! It sickens me to the core!
Why does it concern you? We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.   :)
righhhhht.
 

Mickey

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Papist said:
We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
Why are you being so defensive?
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  :eek:
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".
 

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Irish Hermit said:
To adopt Alfonso's line in reverse - we have to groom you and get you ready for your return to the Church.   :)
:laugh:
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
We Catholic are just graceless heretics with fake sacraments right?
Why are you being so defensive?
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.
 

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Papist said:
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap.
LOL! The Byzantine Catholics would beg to differ with you.
 

Mickey

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Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.
You seem to have a real inferiority complex.
 

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Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you
I think they are not as rare as you believe. But I will answer your question.

I am old enough to remember attending the Latin Mass of my youth.  To see this now--is a travesty.
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother if we don't even really have the Body and Blood of Christ at Mass in the first place. I mean, according to your Church's view, these events would only insult pieces of bread and glasses of wine.
You seem to have a real inferiority complex.
Not at all. Just as you believe that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, I believe of my Church. What I am confused about is why you are so offened about Liturgical abuses in a Church that you don't even think has the Blessed Sacrament to offend in the first place. It seems like a bit of a contradiction.
 

Irish Hermit

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Papist said:
Mickey said:
Papist said:
Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  :eek:
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".
If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
 

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you
I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
 

Papist

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Mickey said:
Papist said:
Nah, most of us who want to live our Catholic faith dispensed with the hippie nonsense.
I wouldn't be so sure. The Byzantine Catholics just revised the Liturgy using gender neutral language.  :eek:
I don't think that gender neutral language in the liturgy is hippie crap. Its just an updated translation. Words don't mean what they used to. There was a time when a person could say "all men" and mean both women and men just like a person does in Spanish. However, "all men" doesn't mean that anymore. Languages change and develop. So to get at what the liturgy was saying, a modern and accurate translation would be "all men and women".
If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
 

Mickey

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Irish Hermit said:
If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor.  :)
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Irish Hermit said:
If you read the threads on such as ByzCath.org you will see that this has caused much angst for Byzantine Catholics and the issues go very deep for them.  One serendipity effect has been the departure of some of them for Orthodox Churches.
There were many reasons for me (most of them doctrinal and patristic)---but that was a contributing factor.  :)
I can understand your other reasons. You didn't believe in what the teachings of the Catholic Church anymore. I am sympathetic to that. But this other reason, well I think that its plain silliness.
 

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Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.
I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems.  :-\
 

Irish Hermit

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Papist said:
Mickey said:
Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you
I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~


 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it.
I will relay that to my Byzantine Catholic friends. I am sure that will solve all their problems.  :-\
It will if they actually take me up on it.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Mickey said:
Papist said:
Just wondering why these rare and extreme abuses in the Catholic Church bother you
I think they are not as rare as you believe.
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Again, I agree that there are problems right now. But he majority of Catholics will never see a "Clown Mass" or a "Devil/Halloween Mass" and I am sure you know this.
 

Mickey

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Irish Hermit said:
But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Irish Hermit said:
But all the same, Alfonso, there must be something profoundly wrong if His Holiness is moved to lament from the depth of his soul...



"I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves
today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.”


"In its practical materialization, liturgical reform has moved further
away from this origin. The result was not re-animation but devastation.

Pope Benedict XVI
~~~~~~
Exactly. And the few times I have had to go back to the RCC after my conversion, (such as funerals),  my wife and I could not help but feel like we were at a protestant service. It was the strangest thing!
You are right. Your feelings on the matter are the strangest thing.  ;)
 

Mickey

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Papist said:
Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.
Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly.  ::)
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Whether they are glad to hear it or not is not the issue. Now if they choose to grow up, now that's important.
Again....I will tell them that you said they are all immature. I'm sure that will help them greatly.  ::)
Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them. That was not the point of my comment about their maturity or lack there of. My point is to describe what I believe is the source of their anguish. If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.
 

Mickey

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Papist said:
Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.
It would not.

Papist said:
If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.
ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!
 

Papist

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Mickey said:
Papist said:
Well, I am not sure whether or not my comment will help them.
It would not.

Papist said:
If I were to talk to them right now in person so that I could help them I would discuss with them why gender neutral language is a more accurate modern translation.
ROTFL!  You are a real hoot!
You are too mickey.  :D
 

Irish Hermit

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Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
 

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The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  :)
 

podkarpatska

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
 

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Alonso_castillo said:
Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.
Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
I think they are making it an issue. But that doesn't mean its a substantial issue in and of itself.
 

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LBK said:
The averager Catholic will never see an abuse that is that extreme and you know this very well. I wonder why you are pretending otherwise.
Papist, you are missing the point. The very fact that clown masses and other travesties are being held, and continue to be held, in the first place, points to either a breakdown in episcopal oversight, or, where bishops themselves have promoted such services (such as the unfortunate fellow in the Haloween mass), have not been brought to book by their superiors.

In the RCC, is it not a bishop's responsibility to "rightly proclaim the word of Truth", in other words, to oversee his flock, and ensure that proper order and teaching is observed by his clergy? Please do not see me as judgemental, but if an Orthodox clergyman was to conduct a clown liturgy or a Halloween liturgy, he would be taking his pick from the shovels, pronto. He would be hauled before his superiors before he knew it (through the action of his flock), and, at the very least, be asked to explain himself. I guarantee that the very least that would be required of him would be to "cease and desist".

The episcopate should not be a dictatorship or fiefdom, far from it. Pastoral economia (at least, among the Orthodox, I can't speak for the RCC) is a well-established principle, where allowances can be made for individual circumstance. But it is imperative that all clergy know what is permissible, and what is not, and that bishops be not afraid to act on practices which dilute or distort the truths of the church, or reduce worship to a caricature or mere entertainment. I am not Roman Catholic, but I have family and many friends who are, and it grieves me, and them, to know that gross travesties like these "masses" are allowed, by omission or commission, to occur.

Remember the case of the RC priest in Australia who conducted baptisms in the name of "the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer"? Last I heard, the Vatican has decided that all these baptisms need to be "regularised", as the Trinitarian formula was inadequate. Even "mere words" have great significance. What then, of messing around with liturgical form and praxis? Think about it, folks.  :)
Hey you are preaching to the Choir here. I absolutely agree with you. But I don't think a very small handful of extreme examples are characteristic of my Church.
 

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podkarpatska said:
Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
Quite frankly, I think that those who have a problem with it need to grow up and get over it. Its ridiculous to create issues where none exist.
Thank God for people like you with the Bishop Ireland mentality.  You drive hundreds of your Byzantine Catholic flock out of the Catholic Church and into the arms of Orthodoxy.

If you don't think this is an important issue for the Byzantine Catholics, have a look at the threads concerning it and the literally thousands of messages from priests and laity.
"The Revised Divine Liturgy"
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/forums/15/1
There is also this interesting thread there on the point raised specifically by Irish Hermit:  "no respect from Latin Rite Catholics"...http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/340763/no%20respect%20from%20Latin%20Rite%20Cat#Post340763
I would respond but I was band for stating that all Catholics, including Byzantines, are required to accept all Catholic Dogma.
 

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ignatius said:
Alonso_castillo said:
Respecting your kids, ¿What is it Worst, teaching them to quit, or to fight?

Just remember canon 112 P2

"§2. The practice, however prolonged, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui iuris does not entail enrollment in that Church." end of quote.

So, If your kids have been baptized catholics, they will always be catholics, as well as you.
Honestly Alonso I don't mind being Catholic, what I mind is not being allowed to be Fully Catholic. I mean being nourished by the works of the Saints and the fullness of expression of the Sacraments. Having Priests that we can trust and not worry every time they give a homily what they are going to say. I'm so tired of that.

It's not 'being Catholic'... I'm not leaving because I don't want to be Catholic. If I leave I will leave because I am in a community that will aid me to be a Saint.
1. Where on earth do you go to Church that you don't experience trustworthy priests?
2. An act of schism will certainly not lead you to sanctity.
 
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