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Mor Ephrem wants to hear everything you know about...

Luke

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I'm Egyptian, and here's just a piece of my experience and knowledge on Islam. There's tons of good muslims in the world. Most aren't very pious. Most don't read the Quran. Most don't want to kill me and you. There's pious muslims who read the quran for what its worth (I'm not sure how but they do). Then there's people who are either born into, or get wrapped up in radical Islam. Those are sadly, in my opinion, the "Real" muslims. Because the rest don't fully adhere to their faith. Orthodox is to Christianity as Radical Sunni is to Islam in terms of "adherence to the faith".
 

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Aye, and the peaceful but devout sects like the Alevis, the Mevlevis, the Bektasis and so on, are correctly viewed by Orthodox Islam as heretics.  But that is perhaps because there is evil in the heart of Islam, and so the heterodox forms of it largely exist as a way of tempering the evil, whereas with Christianity, the heart of the religion is God who is Love, and thus any Christian heresy will tend to interfere with this love.
 

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wgw said:
Aye, and the peaceful but devout sects like the Alevis, the Mevlevis, the Bektasis and so on, are correctly viewed by Orthodox Islam as heretics.  But that is perhaps because there is evil in the heart of Islam, and so the heterodox forms of it largely exist as a way of tempering the evil, whereas with Christianity, the heart of the religion is God who is Love, and thus any Christian heresy will tend to interfere with this love.
Or it could be folks are folks, whatever their religion, except when those few arise who are not satisfied to be just folks, who seek to rarify themselves by fundamentalism or other cultishness.
 

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Charles Martel said:
TheTrisagion said:
All I know about Islam?  Well there was this guy who lived in the desert and claimed he had visions from God, so he and a bunch of his posse got together and made up a religion and then started killing people in the name of it and it has been happening ever since.
Abraham?
Thank you Charles.
 

Charles Martel

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kelly said:
Charles Martel said:
kelly said:
Porter ODoran said:
kelly said:
Man, you're sure flooding the ballot with Jonathan's posts lately.
Create a system for nominating posts for condemnation, instead, and then stand back and watch.
That's called 'reporting'  :p
It's called "snitching" where I come from.
Where's that - Compton?
No, don't have the luxury of sunny Southern California.

But good example though. Snitches are despised just as much in black" gangsta" culture in the American Sw as they are by NE Italians as well. Actually, whatever your race or religion is, no one likes a rat. not even Jesus.

Ever heard of Judas Iscariot.
 

Charles Martel

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JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
 

Charles Martel

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orthonorm said:
Islam causes many Christians, especially ones here, to resent them for being unable to be them.
Their relatively pragmatic monotheism is what most Xians practice concretely. Just look at a lot of the wording of posters' criticism about. It often is simply the expression of sour grapes.

The Gospel is against this crazy world and I've met few crazy enough to try to live it.
Actually, the point is, they and sometimes their version of "christianity" is no different than the mohamedens they despise.

A sort of projection if you will.
 

Charles Martel

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orthonorm said:
Charles Martel said:
TheTrisagion said:
All I know about Islam?  Well there was this guy who lived in the desert and claimed he had visions from God, so he and a bunch of his posse got together and made up a religion and then started killing people in the name of it and it has been happening ever since.
Abraham?
Thank you Charles.
Religion is full of people who had their own private conversation with the Almighty who then gave them their marching orders to dispatch people who didn't agree with them.

Having said that, Islam in it's infancy was not the agressor, they didn't become violent until after they were threatened with extermination by the local pagan merchants who seen Mohamed and his cult as a threat to their "business" of selling make believe stuff.

Funny how things haven't changed a bit.
 

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Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
"Christendom" was the wrong word.  "Roman Catholic Church" is a better choice.
 

LenInSebastopol

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Jonathan Gress said:
Same here, we have a lot of Somalis around here and 99.9% of them are model citizens. They saved Minneapolis, in fact (downtown Minneapolis used to be called "Murderapolis", with an extremely high crime rate, until the Somalis began arriving). Many of them, especially women, have become entrepreneurs. It's quite amazing how well they've adapted to life in the USA, especially given that Somali communities in Norway and Sweden haven't been doing nearly as well. (There have been government officials from those countries who have come here to figure out "what our secret" is).
I think maybe part of the secret is that in Europe, immigrant communities are often "ghettoized" and don't have as much day-to-day contact with non-immigrants (or vice versa). There's far less segregation over here, and as a result, less potential for radicalization. It's much harder to demonize all non-Muslims (or all Muslims) when many of them are your friends, coworkers and neighbors.


It seems like your positive view on Somali immigration isn't shared by all. While I'm happy to agree with the statement that "good" (meaning well-socialized, law-abiding, economically productive) Muslims exist, I think smart Western countries keep Muslim immigration as low as possible.
While I agree we should keep the Muslim immigration to a minimum in the West, a sheriff asking for more money from the gov't already has a spin to his ways, as does the Reverend at the bottom of the three year old article. To be sure, even the notion of "gang" is dubious at times.
 

LenInSebastopol

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Porter ODoran said:
Why such anger? Really I don't understand the intensity of the emotions surrounding Islam in the average conservative Western mind, which is hardly effected by related current events. Oh and yeah, no, I don't think one report from one sheriff about one gang arises to "statistics." Minnesotan's thoughtfully-gathered observations of his own city amount to more "data" than that.
You ever have a week were you don't eat much, or hardly at all?
And work like a dog and pray to God due to the condition all men, mostly self, are in?
One finds a NEW sin called Snarkiness
That's all; no biggie.
 

LenInSebastopol

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Porter ODoran said:
wgw said:
Aye, and the peaceful but devout sects like the Alevis, the Mevlevis, the Bektasis and so on, are correctly viewed by Orthodox Islam as heretics.  But that is perhaps because there is evil in the heart of Islam, and so the heterodox forms of it largely exist as a way of tempering the evil, whereas with Christianity, the heart of the religion is God who is Love, and thus any Christian heresy will tend to interfere with this love.
Or it could be folks are folks, whatever their religion, except when those few arise who are not satisfied to be just folks, who seek to rarify themselves by fundamentalism or other cultishness.
+1
FINALLY
 

LenInSebastopol

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Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.
And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
Well, in the USA it has been estimated between 1 and 13 million, from what I've read but then the communist have that agenda to whip up minorities to divide all. There's Middle and South America too. I also doubt that number however there was a bunch and it was damn near whole races of folks, no matter what number.
Still going on in Alaska and reservations down here via alcohol, for those not in the know of things.

It is also OK, in full discussions, to "allow Christendom" to be used as a means to "justify" the wealth taken; at least the Europeans used it. One can successfully argue that such was not "true Christianity" but then on this side of Heaven always has those kinds of arguments.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/European_Colonization_of_the_Americas
 

LenInSebastopol

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orthonorm said:
Islam causes many Christians, especially ones here, to resent them for being unable to be them.

Their relatively pragmatic monotheism is what most Xians practice concretely. Just look at a lot of the wording of posters' criticism about. It often is simply the expression of sour grapes.
The Gospel is against this crazy world and I've met few crazy enough to try to live it.
I agree and admire the Muslim religion.
In the current practice of the newspaper fundamentalists they have perfected man and his relationship to fellow man via of The Nature of The Old Man.

For non-Orthos, all the derivations of the sins of Pride, Anger, Lust, Envy and Avarice have been touted in the press and those Muslims seem to be doing a hell of a job into a whole new level not seen since the 1930s and 40s.  Quite a feat!
 

Charles Martel

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hecma925 said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
"Christendom" was the wrong word.  "Roman Catholic Church" is a better choice.
Yea, that's it, the Church genocided all those natives in the New World.

Now let's see, if I can just remember the papal encyclical about exterminating throngs of Indians in the Americas. ::)
 

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The main civilizations of the premodern world are generally called Christendom, Islam, China, Meso-America, and India. What exactly the role of the church was in Christendom is a separate subject. It's perfectly correct to say that Christendom invaded the Americas.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
You don't follow OCNet very carefully, do you?  If you did, you'd know that JamesR doesn't have any descendants. 
 

Charles Martel

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LenInSebastopol said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.
And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
Well, in the USA it has been estimated between 1 and 13 million, from what I've read but then the communist have that agenda to whip up minorities to divide all. There's Middle and South America too. I also doubt that number however there was a bunch and it was damn near whole races of folks, no matter what number.
Still going on in Alaska and reservations down here via alcohol, for those not in the know of things.

It is also OK, in full discussions, to "allow Christendom" to be used as a means to "justify" the wealth taken; at least the Europeans used it. One can successfully argue that such was not "true Christianity" but then on this side of Heaven always has those kinds of arguments.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/European_Colonization_of_the_Americas
No where near  a "million" period. There weren't even that many natives in North America alone at that time.

My lord, where do people come up with these exaggerated numbers about mass "genocides" of natives in the Americas anyways? It's all propaganda by the Left looking to stir everyone up about the evil white European Christian man and all the hell he brang upon all the other noble creatures roaming the planet in relative peace and tranquility.

Well I have news for all the anti-Catholic/Europeans on here.


Before the Spanish Conquistadors came rolling through the Americas the pagan  natives were doing a pretty good job of slaughtering each other with the strong  tribes"genociding" the weak at will. The Aztecs were known for their brutality in engaging in human sacrifice to appease their gods lust for human blood, ruthlessly slaughtering hundreds of thousands of young and innocent men,women and children for years before the Spanish came and put an end to this disgusting ritual.

And the Roman Catholic Church was the major player in converting millions of natives out of the darkness of this barbarian paganism, especially after the appartion of our Lady at Guadalupe where one of the largest coversions in the history of Christianity took place. The Church has always fought to defend the natives from any kind of tyranny, no matter where it comes from. She certainly isn't responsible for the "genociding" of millions of them.

Our Lady of the Americas is a testament to this;

 

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What is the basis for your evidently very small figures? Why would we believe you that two of the largest continents on earth were basically unpopulated? By the way, establishing figures for the native populations is a science that has been gone over and over and over by every possible method. There is quite a bit of data in Spanish colonial records, for example -- many thousands of pages of logs and bookkeeping. I think your delusion is the result of abstracting all this to an ideological point -- no, the conquest was a real time and place bustling for centuries with people and enterprises and documents and daily actions. Adjust your goggles, in short.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Some extremely insulting Romanist revisionism is going on here. The ethnic cleansing and genocide of Native Americans is a fact.

Sure, it wasn't 80 million, we're talking before the Industrial Revolution so population couldn't have been that high, but they wiped out the entire population almost completely. South America was better, but let's be honest here. A country with thriving populations of people disappearing over a couple decades is genocide.

@Porter +1000
 

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Islam (Arabic for "submission to God") is a major world religion, the second largest in the world and the fastest-growing by most estimations. Its adherents worship the monotheistic Abrahamic God. While God in Islam is ascribed many names, the name "Allah" (Arabic for "god") is the most commonly used. Islam teaches that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him -- a complementary phrase attached to Islamic prophets, specifically the Prophet Muhammad, or colloquially "The Prophet") received God's final revelation from the angel Gabriel, and so Islam teaches a progression from Judaism to Christianity to itself.

The core belief of Islam is that there is one God and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His prophet (specifically, his final prophet, as Islam recognizes the prophets of Judaism and Christianity). Its holy scriptures are the Qu'ran, which detail God's teachings through the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). There is also an authoritative oral tradition of teachings and stories, known as the hadith. One who follows Islam is called a Muslim. To convert, one needs only profess the core belief of Islam with sincerity.

Muslims pray five times a day, if possible at a mosque, the holy place for prayer. Their special Jumu'ah services occur on Friday. They also observe several holidays throughout their calendar (which is on a lunar scale), the most known being Ramadan (a month of fasting), and Eid al-Fatir (a feast signifying the end of Ramadan). Muslims also abstain from eating pork, and adhere to their own laws of animal slaughter. There are several holy sites of Islam, which Muslims are obligated to make pilgrimage to, such as the Dome of the Rock (Qubbat As-Sakhrah) in Jerusalem, and the Kaaba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Almsgiving is also an important pillar of Islam.

There are many sects of Islam, but the two major sects are Sunnis and Shia, with the former outnumbering the latter significantly. While originating from the Middle East, Islam (of the Sunni sect) is most populous in Indonesia.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Islam (Arabic for "submission to God") is a major world religion, the second largest in the world and the fastest-growing by most estimations. Its adherents worship the monotheistic Abrahamic God. While God in Islam is ascribed many names, the name "Allah" (Arabic for "god") is the most commonly used. Islam teaches that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him -- a complimentary phrase attached to Islamic prophets, specifically the Prophet Muhammad, or colloquially "The Prophet") received God's final revelation from the angel Gabriel, and so Islam teaches a progression from Judaism to Christianity to itself.
That last clause is actually false, depending on exactly what you mean here. Islam is the "original" faith of Abraham. (Qur'an 2:135, 3:67) Orthodox Islam generally holds that all of the former prophets were Muslims and that their followers "hijacked" Islam for money, and changed them into Judaism and Christianity. Islam "abrogates" the former revealed religions of Judaism and Christianity and is now the only true religion in the eyes of God. (Qur'an 3:19, 3:85)

Its holy scriptures are the Qu'ran, which detail God's teachings through the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
The Qur'an is also considered by standard Islamic theology to be immutable in the extreme, more so than the most fundamentalist inerrantist Christian considers the Bible. Every dot is considered to be the literal words of Allah.

To convert, one needs only profess the core belief of Islam with sincerity.
Muslims believe that every human being was, by default, born a Muslim (Fitrah). Therefore, nobody converts to Islam, but they revert to Islam, which is the default religion.

Muslims pray five times a day, if possible at a mosque, the holy place for prayer.
-Fajr
-Maghreb
-Zhuhor
-'Asr
-Isha'

All of them are at different times in the day.

There are several holy sites of Islam, which Muslims are obligated to make pilgrimage to, such as the Dome of the Rock (Qubbat As-Sakhrah) in Jerusalem, and the Kaaba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. Almsgiving is also an important pillar of Islam.
Madinah is the "City of the Prophet" also a holy site. Shi'ites have their own holy sites in Iran, Iraq and Syria. In Najaf, Karbala (Iraq), Qom, Mashhad (Iran) and Damascus (Syria) primarily.

There are many sects of Islam, but the two major sects are Sunnis and Shia, with the former outnumbering the latter significantly. While originating from the Middle East, Islam (of the Sunni sect) is most populous in Indonesia.
Shi'ite Islam is most numerous in Iran. Shi'ites also have Maraja' who are their religious authorities, each Shi'ite is obliged to make Taqlid to one of these Maraja' according to Islamic law. Sunnis haven't had a universal religious authority since 1924, when the Caliphate was abolished. Due to this, many Sunnis are unsure of whether to make Taqlid to scholars or to interpret the Qur'an by themselves.

It's also important to note the increasing prevalence of the Ahmadi sect of Islam which considers Mirza Gulam Ahmad to be the Messiah, and final Caliph (as such, their religious authority,) but still adheres to the Hadith and Qur'an as most Sunni Muslims do. It's a growing sect in Pakistan and India, but they are still considered heretics by most Muslims.
 

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Charles Martel said:
Now let's see, if I can just remember the papal encyclical about exterminating throngs of Indians in the Americas. ::)
Inter Caetera :p

xOrthodox4Christx said:
South America was better
The Potosí millions would disagree.
 

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Horrifying. Lord, have mercy.

Overall, the fact remains that Native persons and blood in South America are much more prevalent than in North America.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Islam (Arabic for "submission to God") is a major world religion, the second largest in the world and the fastest-growing by most estimations. Its adherents worship the monotheistic Abrahamic God. While God in Islam is ascribed many names, the name "Allah" (Arabic for "god") is the most commonly used. Islam teaches that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him -- a complimentary phrase attached to Islamic prophets, specifically the Prophet Muhammad, or colloquially "The Prophet") received God's final revelation from the angel Gabriel, and so Islam teaches a progression from Judaism to Christianity to itself.
That last clause is actually false, depending on exactly what you mean here.
I meant it in the sense that God revealed Himself through the scriptures and teachings of the Jews and Christians, but that His final, complete, and "uncorrupted" revelation is Islam. Yes, a Muslim would see the past prophets as Muslims before Islam, just as we might see Old Testament saints as "proto-Christian" in their faith (but of course not saved yet by Christ's blood). For instance, it is Orthodox teaching that Moses, when he spoke with God on Mount Sinai, was actually speaking with the pre-incarnate Son. Thus, when he appeared with Elijah at the Transfiguration, he spoke with Jesus as if he already knew him from before.
 

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Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
Well the 80 million goes for the Indian subcontinent. It's the estimate given by historian K.S. Lal, and it's not speaking of an overnight event but from years of turmoil related to Islamic expansion, just as the number of indigenous Americans who died wasn't an overnight event but one that happened over a period of time, mostly due to disease.
 

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Charles Martel said:
My lord, where do people come up with these exaggerated numbers about mass "genocides" of natives in the Americas anyways? It's all propaganda by the Left looking to stir everyone up about the evil white European Christian man and all the hell he brang upon all the other noble creatures roaming the planet in relative peace and tranquility.

Well I have news for all the anti-Catholic/Europeans on here.

Before the Spanish Conquistadors came rolling through the Americas the pagan  natives were doing a pretty good job of slaughtering each other with the strong  tribes"genociding" the weak at will. The Aztecs were known for their brutality in engaging in human sacrifice to appease their gods lust for human blood, ruthlessly slaughtering hundreds of thousands of young and innocent men,women and children for years before the Spanish came and put an end to this disgusting ritual.

And the Roman Catholic Church was the major player in converting millions of natives out of the darkness of this barbarian paganism, especially after the appartion of our Lady at Guadalupe where one of the largest coversions in the history of Christianity took place. The Church has always fought to defend the natives from any kind of tyranny, no matter where it comes from. She certainly isn't responsible for the "genociding" of millions of them.
Our Lady of the Americas is a testament to this;
This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
It may be tough for you, Hammer Head, but there were some bad guys that came outta Europe to the Americass, and they did bad things to the folks they 'discovered'. In North America they did not interbreed but rather killed the and put them in ghettos reservations, still. In Alaska they did interbreed, as in Mexico and some of Central America. Parts of South America they did as well.
As you probably know, The Lady Of The Americas was appearing in that spot to indegenious long before the Church showed up, and like the preceding thousand years, the church simply dressed the pagan in a Christian light.
As an aside the Azetecs had only been around a short while on that scene, but had inherited much from ap previous group. As with so many civilizations on the planet, much 'culture/civilization' occurred in the South and was overtaken by barbarians from the North as it drifted to those climes.
I gather you're from another country and not know much about ours. We are a magnificent country with Providence bound within us, but we suffer from he same ills as all others, we have some who are blinded by passions and do not know God as revealed to us. Some will 'use' the god-thingy for their own and bring a hell-on-Earth to those that simply want to live as best we can.
 

Charles Martel

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Porter ODoran said:
What is the basis for your evidently very small figures? Why would we believe you that two of the largest continents on earth were basically unpopulated? By the way, establishing figures for the native populations is a science that has been gone over and over and over by every possible method. There is quite a bit of data in Spanish colonial records, for example -- many thousands of pages of logs and bookkeeping. I think your delusion is the result of abstracting all this to an ideological point -- no, the conquest was a real time and place bustling for centuries with people and enterprises and documents and daily actions. Adjust your goggles, in short.
Hey, where is your evidence of these thriving, " bustling" tens, if not hundreds of millions of people inhabiting some type of "advanced" culture, especially  down there in Latin America there Porter? How can you prove otherwise? You can't.

Without any kind of real data, record keeping, archelogical evidence of these "throngs" of natives is sketchy at best. Giving the lack of any real scientific data and evidence, it's impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there were "tens or hundreds of millions" of these native inhabitants within the Western Hemisphere pre-Columbus.

In other words, there is no "evidence" of your over populated continents, buddy.

Just the delusions of the ideological Left and their pseudo-scientific "numbers crunching" to support their anti-Western/European or anti-Christianity (see catholic) agenda in order to rewrite the history books.

Scholary wisdom and common sense alone supports that the majority of these stone-age tribes could not possibly maintained tens of millions of people or high populations due to their own lack of advances in medicine or technology in all aspects.

Regardless of the population figures pre-Columbus that we don't know for sure , one thing we do know for sure  is that it dropped considerably, but mostly due to infections and diseases brought over by the Europeans, NOT  "mass-slayings" of the native inhabitants  by their conquerors. They were killing many of their own, long before the Euros came here.

And evidence suggests that due in part to their own disease and malnutrition  they were in population decline as well;

Don't Blame Columbus for All the Indians' Ills


The epidemics that resulted have been well documented. What had not been clearly recognized until now, though, is that the general health of Native Americans had apparently been deteriorating for centuries before 1492.

That is the conclusion of a team of anthropologists, economists and paleopathologists who have completed a wide-ranging study of the health of people living in the Western Hemisphere in the last 7,000 years.

The researchers, whose work is regarded as the most comprehensive yet, say their findings in no way diminish the dreadful impact Old World diseases had on the people of the New World. But it suggests that the New World was hardly a healthful Eden


http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/29/science/don-t-blame-columbus-for-all-the-indians-ills.html
 

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u don't follow OCNet very carefully, do you?  If you did, you'd know that JamesR doesn't have any descendants.
Ha, you're right. Is this by divine providence perhaps?

The Lord doeth work in mysterious ways. ;)
 

Charles Martel

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LenInSebastopol said:
Charles Martel said:
My lord, where do people come up with these exaggerated numbers about mass "genocides" of natives in the Americas anyways? It's all propaganda by the Left looking to stir everyone up about the evil white European Christian man and all the hell he brang upon all the other noble creatures roaming the planet in relative peace and tranquility.

Well I have news for all the anti-Catholic/Europeans on here.

Before the Spanish Conquistadors came rolling through the Americas the pagan  natives were doing a pretty good job of slaughtering each other with the strong  tribes"genociding" the weak at will. The Aztecs were known for their brutality in engaging in human sacrifice to appease their gods lust for human blood, ruthlessly slaughtering hundreds of thousands of young and innocent men,women and children for years before the Spanish came and put an end to this disgusting ritual.

And the Roman Catholic Church was the major player in converting millions of natives out of the darkness of this barbarian paganism, especially after the appartion of our Lady at Guadalupe where one of the largest coversions in the history of Christianity took place. The Church has always fought to defend the natives from any kind of tyranny, no matter where it comes from. She certainly isn't responsible for the "genociding" of millions of them.
Our Lady of the Americas is a testament to this;
This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
It may be tough for you, Hammer Head, but there were some bad guys that came outta Europe to the Americass, and they did bad things to the folks they 'discovered'. In North America they did not interbreed but rather killed the and put them in ghettos reservations, still. In Alaska they did interbreed, as in Mexico and some of Central America. Parts of South America they did as well.
As you probably know, The Lady Of The Americas was appearing in that spot to indegenious long before the Church showed up, and like the preceding thousand years, the church simply dressed the pagan in a Christian light.
As an aside the Azetecs had only been around a short while on that scene, but had inherited much from ap previous group. As with so many civilizations on the planet, much 'culture/civilization' occurred in the South and was overtaken by barbarians from the North as it drifted to those climes.
I gather you're from another country and not know much about ours. We are a magnificent country with Providence bound within us, but we suffer from he same ills as all others, we have some who are blinded by passions and do not know God as revealed to us. Some will 'use' the god-thingy for their own and bring a hell-on-Earth to those that simply want to live as best we can.
Cry me a river there Lenny........"oh, those nasty ol white people from Europe".

Everybody be hatin on da white manz.

Yea, so there was some bad folks that came over the pond and ruined things here in Shangri la. Guess what, there was some downright nasty folks over here as well, lopping off heads and ripping out the beating hearts of the defenseless people who did nothing to them other than exist and become cannon  fodder for their delusional "gods". I know we all want this narrative that the little noble and peaceful native folk were just here enjoying the sun, growing their corn and luving each other before the big bad Spaniard came here a marching and a looting and brought the rest of the orcs over from Europe with them.

Turth is, history is a little more complex than that. I know this is tough for those who want to live in a perfect word, but we don't. Evil and bad people exist everywhere, even amongst the "tens" (hundreds?) of millions of those peace-able brown, lightly feathered-folk that were living in paradise before we came here crashing the party. That's reality.

Although, for some, reality is optional.

I tell you what Lenny, we can all pack up our gear, technology, innovation and medicine and go back to Europe. And you can go back to living in grass huts, raping and killing your weaker tribes and fight off the winter cold and malnutrion without us.

Deal?
 

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JamesR said:
Charles Martel said:
JamesR said:
Mor Ephrem said:
...Islam. 

Please tell me everything you know about Islam.
It caused the population of the Indian subcontinent to decrease by 80 million, according to historian K.S. Lal. That's about just as bad as Christendom's genocide of indigenous Americans.
80 million natives genocided in the Americas? Really James?

I don't mind you having a cause against the rape of  your featherheaded descendants, but please at least get your numbers straight. These magical numbers in "genocides" like 80 million only cause you to lose any kind of credibility.

And for the love of God, please don't equate "christendom" with the greed of European expanisionists and the royalty's lust for Native gold and land in the New World.
Well the 80 million goes for the Indian subcontinent. It's the estimate given by historian K.S. Lal, and it's not speaking of an overnight event but from years of turmoil related to Islamic expansion, just as the number of indigenous Americans who died wasn't an overnight event but one that happened over a period of time, mostly due to disease.
Disease sucks James, for us all, brown, black or white. It sucks that the natives were exposed to the microbe, maybe the European as well. But it was bound to happen one way or another. That is the way of the world, no one can be isolated for ever. But, no one should have other cultures thrusted upon them overnight as well. The natives are a perfect example of the dangers of sudden onslaught "multiculturalism" and it's effects on a people. It was in many ways, a travesty, but more by happenstance than design and their location and time in history. And gold, lots and lots of gold. Where you have lots of gold, you have lots of problems and evil in the world. This is pretty much a given.

I can pretty much buy your "weeded out over the course of time" theory, but again, I don't believe it was from design so much as the result of history and policies that let's say didn't have the native best interests in mind when they implemented them. But I refuse to believe there was some grand scheme to mass "genocide" the natives in any large measure. Did they get screwed? Absolutely. Join the rest of "civilization". This is the world we live in.
 

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This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
Yes, he was the guy who kicked the Moslems out of Western Europe. Remember?

Of course given this is a thread about Islam, I thought that it would be appropiate to mention it.

Europe could use a "hammer" today.
 

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Charles Martel said:
LenInSebastopol said:
Charles Martel said:
My lord, where do people come up with these exaggerated numbers about mass "genocides" of natives in the Americas anyways? It's all propaganda by the Left looking to stir everyone up about the evil white European Christian man and all the hell he brang upon all the other noble creatures roaming the planet in relative peace and tranquility.

Well I have news for all the anti-Catholic/Europeans on here.

Before the Spanish Conquistadors came rolling through the Americas the pagan  natives were doing a pretty good job of slaughtering each other with the strong  tribes"genociding" the weak at will. The Aztecs were known for their brutality in engaging in human sacrifice to appease their gods lust for human blood, ruthlessly slaughtering hundreds of thousands of young and innocent men,women and children for years before the Spanish came and put an end to this disgusting ritual.

And the Roman Catholic Church was the major player in converting millions of natives out of the darkness of this barbarian paganism, especially after the appartion of our Lady at Guadalupe where one of the largest coversions in the history of Christianity took place. The Church has always fought to defend the natives from any kind of tyranny, no matter where it comes from. She certainly isn't responsible for the "genociding" of millions of them.
Our Lady of the Americas is a testament to this;
This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
It may be tough for you, Hammer Head, but there were some bad guys that came outta Europe to the Americass, and they did bad things to the folks they 'discovered'. In North America they did not interbreed but rather killed the and put them in ghettos reservations, still. In Alaska they did interbreed, as in Mexico and some of Central America. Parts of South America they did as well.
As you probably know, The Lady Of The Americas was appearing in that spot to indegenious long before the Church showed up, and like the preceding thousand years, the church simply dressed the pagan in a Christian light.
As an aside the Azetecs had only been around a short while on that scene, but had inherited much from ap previous group. As with so many civilizations on the planet, much 'culture/civilization' occurred in the South and was overtaken by barbarians from the North as it drifted to those climes.
I gather you're from another country and not know much about ours. We are a magnificent country with Providence bound within us, but we suffer from he same ills as all others, we have some who are blinded by passions and do not know God as revealed to us. Some will 'use' the god-thingy for their own and bring a hell-on-Earth to those that simply want to live as best we can.
Cry me a river there Lenny........"oh, those nasty ol white people from Europe".

Everybody be hatin on da white manz.

Yea, so there was some bad folks that came over the pond and ruined things here in Shangri la. Guess what, there was some downright nasty folks over here as well, lopping off heads and ripping out the beating hearts of the defenseless people who did nothing to them other than exist and become cannon  fodder for their delusional "gods". I know we all want this narrative that the little noble and peaceful native folk were just here enjoying the sun, growing their corn and luving each other before the big bad Spaniard came here a marching and a looting and brought the rest of the orcs over from Europe with them.
Turth is, history is a little more complex than that. I know this is tough for those who want to live in a perfect word, but we don't. Evil and bad people exist everywhere, even amongst the "tens" (hundreds?) of millions of those peace-able brown, lightly feathered-folk that were living in paradise before we came here crashing the party. That's reality.
Although, for some, reality is optional.
I tell you what Lenny, we can all pack up our gear, technology, innovation and medicine and go back to Europe. And you can go back to living in grass huts, raping and killing your weaker tribes and fight off the winter cold and malnutrion without us.
Deal?
Wow, your anger issues have little to do with the facts on the ground! Check yourself!
What was here in the Americas was no Eden nor has anyone here made such a claim  so how you come off with the anti-white-European thingy was not generated by any on this forum. You bring your own baggage and dirty laundry from elsewhere. It is clear that you have been educated in public school by those very same communist-inspired-tear-down-America racists. Sorry about that; I wasn't there. I've read about them and apparently the "hate-whitey campaign" works, and well I might add. So you've let them become successful in your heart, eh? Sorry about that again. However, if you want to take that hatred back to Europe, none here stop you. As a matter of fact it is starting to work well over there, what with Muslims doing this & that. Pack your brown shirt, black boots and red scarf.
Damn, boy, on second thought, and to save yourself, maybe a three day fast would be a good start to change that which is seething inside you. Or a plane ticket to the Old World.
 

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But my heart belongs to Finland
Charles Martel said:
I tell you what Lenny, we can all pack up our gear, technology, innovation and medicine and go back to Europe.
What makes you think we want you back?

Charles Martel said:
This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
Yes, he was the guy who kicked the Moslems out of Western Europe. Remember?

Of course given this is a thread about Islam, I thought that it would be appropiate to mention it.

Europe could use a "hammer" today.
Weren't you shilling for the muzzies lately because they hated the jooz just as much as you do?
 

LenInSebastopol

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Charles Martel said:
This scree is from a guy who calls himself The Hammer?
Yes, he was the guy who kicked the Moslems out of Western Europe. Remember?
Of course given this is a thread about Islam, I thought that it would be appropiate to mention it.
Europe could use a "hammer" today.
Currently Europe does not really want a "hammer" to deal with those Semitic and African peoples there now, as they are still suffering from the embarrassment and shame of WWII. As things go I fear another "guy on a white horse" will show up to satisfy the blood lust of those such as yourself.
The Hammer stopped the advancement into Europe as the Saracens barely were in the Aquitaine and couldn't really capture to hold the city although I am sure one could "proudly" say they were in Europe, as they had overrun Spain for better than 700 years.
Such arguments have me retreat into the ONE fact of indisputable and historical event which is the only truth there is: Jesus Christ, Son of God, lived, died and rose again from the dead.
All else is opinion, speculation and idle chatter for the most part.
 

Charles Martel

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Wow, your anger issues have little to do with the facts on the ground! Check yourself!
Right, the facts Len. Let's stick to the facts, never mind my "anger issues". What you call "anger" is my passion for setting the record straight over this ridiculous notion that "Europeans" are responsible for all the evils of the world and many times through the vehicle of the Roman Catholic Church. A totally bogus invention of the radical Left.

What was here in the Americas was no Eden nor has anyone here made such a claim  so how you come off with the anti-white-European thingy was not generated by any on this forum.
When people start talking about Europeans "genociding" millions in the New World, I think that pretty much narrows it down to the anti-white "thingy".

It is clear that you have been educated in public school by those very same communist-inspired-tear-down-America racists. Sorry about that; I wasn't there.
Ehh! Wrong again Lenny, I have 9 years of fine Catholic school education before the commies tried to twist my mind in "higher education" and teach history revision like they're doing these days. Nevertheless, if what I believe is an about face from publik-skool, why would  you be sorry about anything?

I've read about them and apparently the "hate-whitey campaign" works,
You know the best part is works on whitey him/herself with the greatest success.  Lot's of self-haters out there these days with total inability to think for themselves. that's just what they (system libs in academia) want. Good little sheeple.

. So you've let them become successful in your heart, eh?
Uh, no. Can't you tell?

Sorry about that again.
Stop saying that, it doesn't sound good after the first time.

However, if you want to take that hatred back to Europe, none here stop you.
uh, me and my "hatred" aren't going anywhere. We're fine right here in the land of milk and honey thank you very much.

As a matter of fact it is starting to work well over there, what with Muslims doing this & that.
Well, me and my "hatred" wouldn't have let them in to begin with. And it wasn't guys like me who did. now they reap what they sow.

Pack your brown shirt, black boots and red scarf.
Is that what Moslems wear?

Damn, boy, on second thought, and to save yourself, maybe a three day fast would be a good start to change that which is seething inside you.
Now I'm a boy eh? Sorry son, but I'm fasting and just fine inside. I just can't stomach a load of nonsense.

Or a plane ticket to the Old World.
You'd really need more like a time machine.
 
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