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More Happenings at Esphigmenou Monastery

Anastasios

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Andrew21091 said:
I don't support the way the monks are treated but I do agree that they should be evicted from the monastery since for the simple fact that the were disobedient to the Patriarch. If they break away from the Church, then they don't have the right to stay at the monastery.
I find it surprising that so many people view this as a legal issue primarily. Do you think the Zographou fathers should have left the monastery during the time of Patriarch John (Bekkos)? Certainly they were being "disobedient" to the Patriarch.

Whether or not the monks are right (I obviously think they are right) what good does it do to kick them out? Who is going to take care of the monastery--the fake brotherhood they recently created?  The current monks are the ones taking care of the monastery, have been repairing it, have increased the number of the brotherhood. You are going to get rid of them and do what? What's the point? To prove that if you mess with the Patriarch, you get evicted? As if that is going to mean anything to Orthodox monks who (should) stand on principle. The actions of the patriarch are political and has nothing to do with Christianity and are pointless. Kicking those monks out is not going to win anyone over to Christ.
 

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I browsed through the Greek news sources on http://www.hri.org last night and today and didn't see anything related to Esphigmenou.  Even my favorite Greek paper, TA NEA, had no mention of Esphigmenou.

While there has been tension for years, I feel as if I've been duped.  :-[

 

Anastasios

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SolEX01 said:
I browsed through the Greek news sources on http://www.hri.org last night and today and didn't see anything related to Esphigmenou.  Even my favorite Greek paper, TA NEA, had no mention of Esphigmenou.

While there has been tension for years, I feel as if I've been duped.  :-[
Why? Who knows what is going on. While I don't always trust esphigmenou.com for various personal reasons, I don't think they would just make this up out of the blue. I think in a few days we will know what is the scope and what happened. Maybe they are not storming the monastery after all...or maybe something else is going on. I would be patient until we have all the facts.
 

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Yes, it is quite strange that this is the only site talking about it. It seems like a fairly big issue. If it were made up, why? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. God willing, there will be no bloodshed.
 

Ebor

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username! said:
You cannot equate what happens in the Episcopalian community to what happens in the Christian Church, the Orthodox Church.  The Episcopalians were borne out the depths of Henry VII's controversies and madness. 
Erm..Sorry to butt in here, but there is a thread on the forum in which the causes of the Anglican Break from the Bishop of Rome is discussed.  Also, it occurred in the reign of Henry VIII; Henry VII was his father and the first of the Tudor kings.  It was not a case of "madness" but politics in which Rome, Spain and the Emperor Charles were involved, the question of a male heir and other factors.  Sigh.

Withdrawing now...

Ebor
 

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I believe that this is the thread that Ebor was talking about, in case anyone wants to further discuss that (off-topic) subject.
 

Ebor

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Thank you, Asterikos, that's the one.  :)  I apologize for coming in, it was just an inaccurate dig at my Church.

 

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What a sad day to see full riot gear.

Is this christian behaviour by the EP?,REGARDLESS WHO IS WRONG OR RIGHT.

Shame on all involved.
 

username!

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Ebor said:
Erm..Sorry to butt in here, but there is a thread on the forum in which the causes of the Anglican Break from the Bishop of Rome is discussed.  Also, it occurred in the reign of Henry VIII; Henry VII was his father and the first of the Tudor kings.  It was not a case of "madness" but politics in which Rome, Spain and the Emperor Charles were involved, the question of a male heir and other factors.  Sigh.

Withdrawing now...

Ebor
Ok, politics, craziness, madness, debacles, lest I would have gone into a complete detailed graduate thesis on the entire situation. 
 

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As an Orthodox Christian living in Greece, who monitors these dramatic events from a close distance (both literally and metaphorically) I'm astonished by the succour, many Orthodox bring to the schismatics of the Esphigmenou. Whether someone likes or dislikes Patriarch Bartholomew is irrelevant. The Esphigmenites are not welcomed by the Athonite Holy Community either. In fact, a brotherhood consisted of monks from all 19 Monasteries is ready to fill in the gap as soon as the illegal (yes, illegal according to the decision taken by the Holy Community, ie the representatives of the 19 Holy Monasteries, in 1974) occupiers of the Esphigmenou Monastery get evicted. If I'm not mistaken, during his tonsuring the novice monk is asked: "Will you preserve unto death obedience to the Superior?" AFAIK the Esphigmenites not only have demonstrated disobedience toward their superior spiritual authority (EP) but they have shown disrespect and disobedience toward their brothers too: they elected an "igumen" in 1975 and 1999 against the decision taken by the Holy Administration (ie the 4-membered executive committee presided by the Protos). And since 1999 the Esphigmenites deny the commissioned by the Greek state officials to superintend and monitor the invaluable relics threasured in their convent (ie they deny the Greek state to implement its duty which is to protect the property of the Greek people according to our constitution).
Until 2002 I was sympathetic to their cause. Unfortunately in 2003, the "oppressed" Esphigmenite monks launched a huge publicity campaign (sponsored by whom I wonder) in our media (radio, tv, newspapers etc) which demonstrated to many neutral Greeks that they were caught in their own trap: they were accusing EP for secularism and at the same time they were drifted by the sweetness of publicity. I honestly feel sorry for them but they have to go. Lord have mercy. 
 

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Apostolos said:
As an Orthodox Christian living in Greece, who monitors these dramatic events from a close distance (both literally and metaphorically) I'm astonished by the succour, many Orthodox bring to the schismatics of the Esphigmenou. Whether someone likes or dislikes Patriarch Bartholomew is irrelevant. The Esphigmenites are not welcomed by the Athonite Holy Community either. In fact, a brotherhood consisted of monks from all 19 Monasteries is ready to fill in the gap as soon as the illegal (yes, illegal according to the decision taken by the Holy Community, ie the representatives of the 19 Holy Monasteries, in 1974) occupiers of the Esphigmenou Monastery get evicted. If I'm not mistaken, during his tonsuring the novice monk is asked: "Will you preserve unto death obedience to the Superior?" AFAIK the Esphigmenites not only have demonstrated disobedience toward their superior spiritual authority (EP) but they have shown disrespect and disobedience toward their brothers too: they elected an "igumen" in 1975 and 1999 against the decision taken by the Holy Administration (ie the 4-membered executive committee presided by the Protos). And since 1999 the Esphigmenites deny the commissioned by the Greek state officials to superintend and monitor the invaluable relics threasured in their convent (ie they deny the Greek state to implement its duty which is to protect the property of the Greek people according to our constitution).
Until 2002 I was sympathetic to their cause. Unfortunately in 2003, the "oppressed" Esphigmenite monks launched a huge publicity campaign (sponsored by whom I wonder) in our media (radio, tv, newspapers etc) which demonstrated to many neutral Greeks that they were caught in their own trap: they were accusing EP for secularism and at the same time they were drifted by the sweetness of publicity. I honestly feel sorry for them but they have to go. Lord have mercy.   
Is there anything in the Greek press this week about "200 riot police" or other information?  I do not read Greek and OzGeorge posted that he hadn't seen anything about this and could it be a false rumour. 

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
Is there anything in the Greek press this week about "200 riot police" or other information?  I do not read Greek and OzGeorge posted that he hadn't seen anything about this and could it be a false rumour. 

Ebor
I heard in the news early this morning (local time) that the Thessaloniki public prosecutor (mr. Vasilios Phlorides) has given green light for 600 riot police to intervene. They haven't entered into Athos yet, probably due to a last effort by the Foreign Ministry to settle the dispute. My guess is it won't end peacefully (unfortunately).   
 

SolEX01

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^ With Sarkozy addressing the Greek Parliament and the commemoration of World Environment Day, nothing regarding Esphigmenou has appeared on the front pages of news organizations like newspapers and ERT.
 

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Apostolos said:
I heard in the news early this morning (local time) that the Thessaloniki public prosecutor (mr. Vasilios Phlorides) has given green light for 600 riot police to intervene. They haven't entered into Athos yet, probably due to a last effort by the Foreign Ministry to settle the dispute. My guess is it won't end peacefully (unfortunately).   
Thanks Apostolos.
I'd trust your reporting over eKathimerini-type publications any day.
 

SolEX01

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^ Would you prefer To Vima?  ;D  There's no Esphigmenou coverage from that paper.

Edited to correct link pointing to daily edition rather than Sunday edition of To Vima
 

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For those who understand Greek, I found another site: http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=2096 with news on this topic. It seems two monks have already been evicted.
 

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Sophie said:
For those who understand Greek, I found another site: http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=2096 with news on this topic. It seems two monks have already been evicted.
Yes, you're right (don't trust zougla though. They're quite anti-church)
"At approximately 8:30 AM (local time), two Esphigmenou monks were arrested and held at the Ierissos police station, when they tried to cross the border and enter into Athos. According to the police, deportation orders were implemented
' (they're not allowed to enter into Athos ever again).
source: press-gr
 

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Sophie said:
For those who understand Greek, I found another site: http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=2096 with news on this topic. It seems two monks have already been evicted.
Maybe Zougla's goal is trying to replace To Vima as the anti-church news voice for Greece.
 

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romanianortho said:
What a sad day to see full riot gear.

Is this christian behaviour by the EP?, REGARDLESS WHO IS WRONG OR RIGHT.

Shame on all involved.
Agreed. One would think the EP would show a modicum of mercy considering what he himself goes through in his own place of residence.  So much for turning the other cheek.
 

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Quote: "Unless you have evidence to support your allegation that the EP is a freemason, the above is nothing short of libel and totally inappropriate for this forum."

I did not take the post to mean that the current Patriarch of Constantinople is a Mason, only that the Patriarchate has been unduly influenced by Freemasonry, and possibly in the state it is in today because of the Patriarchs who it is known were Freemasons.

Go to http://mymartyrdom.com/orthomason.htm and see what is said there! As a preview:

[In] "the first years of the 20th century, ' when the Patriarchs of Constantinople would go to England to get theological education and there joined Masonic lodges.' (See the collection:  Protests of the Orthodox World against the Visit of the Patriarch of Constantinople to the Pope of Rome in December 1987. Published by ‘Riurik’, p. 5; journal Orthodoxy or Death, No. 1, Moscow, 1997, pp. 66-7). Meletius (Metaxakis) was known under No. 44 in the Masonic lodge  ‘Harmony’, as stated by the Masonic publication ‘Pythagore  – Equerre’ (vol. 4, part 7 - 8, 1935).  His brothers-successors were also high-ranking Masons. Basileus III (Georgiadis) was a member of the English lodge ‘Valewood’;  Athenagoras (Spiros) (the one who willfully lifted the anathema off the Latin’s) was  the 30th degree Mason in the lodge ‘Athenian East’ (Orthodoxos Typos, 16.7.1982); the lateDimitri (Papadopulos), too, was one of  them."

Also: "The Grand Lodge of Greece  the official Famous Masons list reveals these patriarchs, bishops and others to be among their members, if false it would have been corrected by now: Ecumenical Patriarch Joachim III, Patriarch of Alexandria Photius (George Peroglou), Ecumenical Patriarch Meletius (Manuel Metaxakis), Ecumenical Patriarch Basil III, Patriarch of Jerusalem Benedict (Basil Papadopoulos), Metropolitan of Paronaxia Cherubim (Anninos), Metropolitan of Trebizond, later Archbishop of Athens Chrysanthus (Charilaus Philippides), Prince of Greece Andrew, Prince of Greece Christopher, King of Greece George II, Politician John Kapodistrias (Komis) first ruler of Greece, Politician John Metaxas (Prime Minister)."

From http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/ocet22.htm "Then its [Patriarchate of Constantinople] troubles  deepened with the 'election' of a freemason, Metropolitan Meletios Metaksakis,  to its throne. 1 It was he who in  1920 got the Orthodox world involved in ecumenism. It was he who introduced  the civil Calendar into the Greek Churches, thus creating bitter and as  yet unhealed schisms in the few local Churches which were forced to adopt  it. When the Americans installed Patriarch Athenagoras in Constantinople  (a Greek-American freemason of the 33rd degree), his unlawfully deposed  predecessor, Patriarch Maximos was heard to say: 'The City is lost'. Today the Patriarchate of Constantinople has set its sights first on becoming  a kind of 'Eastern Papacy' and then unity with the Vatican."
1.  See the official Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, No 2, where we find  full details of his masonic career. Other particulars of his masonry can  be found in the masonic journal Pythagore-Equerre, Vol. 4, Part 7, 1935,  where his obituary was published. It seems that he was the first Orthodox  bishop in history to call for an end to missionary work by the Orthodox  Church (Point 10 of his encyclical of 1920). Other bishops of the Patriarchate  of Constantinople have openly followed this policy, but we do not know  if this is because they are also freemasons or whether it is for other  reasons. Among present-day masons of the Patriarchate of Constantinople,  we know of one who invites his clergy to become freemasons. The late Patriarch  of Constantinople, Athenagoras, was a notorious freemason.

  So you might see that there has been a great deal of influence on the Patriarchate through its Patriarchs who have provably been Freemasons. As Freemasonry preaches a sort of syncretism-all religions are the same, etc etc etc, bla bla bla, you might also see that this influence of Freemasonry is quite possibly THE reason that the Ecumenical Patriarchate introduced the New Calendar (its introduction was so that "Christians could celebrate the Feasts together") and got the Orthodox Church involved in the syncretistic ecumenist movement.
  So, I do not think there is any "libel" in the mention of Freemasonry, nor is the mention of Freemasonry and the Ecumenical Patriarchate "inappropriate" in any sense on this forum, as it does help explain the situation that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in today-including this horrific persecution and possible u[coming invasion of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou by the minions of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.!
 

PeterTheAleut

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A Sombra said:
Go to http://mymartyrdom.com/orthomason.htm and see what is said there! As a preview:

...
We know who publishes all the material you see on mymartyrdom.com, since he posts here on this forum as the Old Believer HopefulFaithful.  Just read our replies to some of his posts to see that we don't consider anything he posts here or on his own web site to be any more authoritative than anything anyone else posts here.

From http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/ocet22.htm

...
Still no real evidence that any EP was or is a freemason, just another online personality claiming that some were and claiming that the sources he cites will prove this.  What do these primary sources say?  We would like to see that posted here.

So you might see that there has been a great deal of influence on the Patriarchate through its Patriarchs who have provably been Freemasons.
Again, you haven't proven anything about the EP's alleged ties to the Masonic Lodge during the 20th and 21st centuries.  Nice try, but no cigar.
 

ozgeorge

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PeterTheAleut said:
Still no real evidence that any EP was or is a freemason, just another online personality claiming that some were and claiming that the sources he cites will prove this.  What do these primary sources say?  We would like to see that posted here.
But my butcher's wife's manicurist's chiropractor's aunt's gardener said so on his website so it must be true.
 

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ozgeorge said:
But my butcher's wife's manicurist's chiropractor's aunt's gardener said so on his website so it must be true.
From his years in England during WWII, my father had gotten the phrase "It MUST be true.  It's on the BBC."  which he said sometimes as a jest. 

Not that I've seen ANYTHING about any of the recent EPs on the BBC new services. I'm just sticking my keyboard in again.  ;)

Ebor
 

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A Sombra said:
Go to <HopefulFaithful's site> and see what is said there!
I have done a post analyzing just part of one of the above site's pages.  It was full of historical errors, mathematical errors, unsupported assertions, supposed "quotes" which were misinterpreted, misquoted, or had had content added or subtracted to make them fit the site owner's pet ideas.  Adding to another person's quote is making them say words that they, in fact, did not.  It is lying about the other person. Taking parts out of a quote is also making a lie because it is having them say something that they did not.  When the site owner has posted here, he has not explained what he means, he has sometimes just repeated himself as though repetition makes something True, and he has not answered other poster's questions and requests for clarification and support to his bald assertions.

That's enough for now, but at present I would not trust that site in the least. 

Ebor
 

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Quote:  Again, you haven't proven anything about the EP's alleged ties to the Masonic Lodge during the 20th and 21st centuries.  Nice try, but no cigar.


  First of all, because you do not like someone or what they post on another site has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the value of the information that your nemesis has posted.

    These websites listed mention primary sources.
 
    Allso, since you ask for primary sources, you obviously must be fluent in Greek, correct? Let me know . . . as you are fluent in Greek, you would be able to understand the "Primary Sources," correct???
 

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Peter the Aleut:
Perhaps since you seem to disagree/doubt so very vehemently any affiliation of former Patriarchates of Constantinople, you could prove that the former Patriarchs of Constantinople mentioned, beginning with Meletios Metaxakis, were not affiliated with Freemasonry. Your insistence on primary sources is almost humorous, as the affiliation of Meletios Metaxakis is common knowledge, and I have never seen this affiliation denied anywhere. It is akin to stating that you cannot believe Ronald Reagan was a member of the Republican Party without viewing the "Primary Sources."

Also, please let me know what you would consider to be a "Primary Source" proving that Meletios Metaxakis was a Freemason. Obviously, his signed membership card wouldn't do, now would it? After all, how could you authenticate the signature? I think this is a little game, and no source material would be acceptable to you. If I am mistaken,please do tell. And again-let me know if you can read and understand any Greek "primary sources," and exactly what they must consist of. And, thank you for your kind interest in my post!
 

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A Sombra said:
First of all, because you do not like someone or what they post on another site has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the value of the information that your nemesis has posted.
The problem is not with liking/disliking our opponent; the problem is that our opponent has on multiple previous occasions either printed false information or has printed an opinion without explaining to us how/why he has that opinion.

A Sombra said:
These websites listed mention primary sources.
But we have no way of verifying them, since they are not available to those of us here in the states.  If someone did have access to a Greek library and could copy/scan the referenced material, that would be helpful.

A Sombra said:
Allso, since you ask for primary sources, you obviously must be fluent in Greek, correct? Let me know . . . as you are fluent in Greek, you would be able to understand the "Primary Sources," correct??? 
If you've got the Greek, post it.  There are plenty of us here who can/will translate it for those who don't understand.
 

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One of the sources from HopefulFaithful's website is as follows:

" journal Orthodoxy or Death, No. 1, Moscow, 1997, pp. 66-7"

Funny how there's a name of a journal identical to the battle cry of the Esphigmenou Monks, which was "Orthodoxy or Death."  I doubt that such a journal can be found at the local college library or theology; One will have to trek to Moscow and search libraries there for the actual Russian text of the journal.

So much for "love your enemies" since these entities and their disciples will do anything to trigger inter-Orthodox schism.
 

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SolEX01 said:
One of the sources from HopefulFaithful's website is as follows:

" journal Orthodoxy or Death, No. 1, Moscow, 1997, pp. 66-7"

Funny how there's a name of a journal identical to the battle cry of the Esphigmenou Monks, which was "Orthodoxy or Death."  I doubt that such a journal can be found at the local college library or theology; One will have to trek to Moscow and search libraries there for the actual Russian text of the journal.
With all the online personalities here, I'm sure someone has to have a friend in Russia who could do it.  Heck, why not just email/call/PM Nektarios and have him look while he's there?

SolEX01 said:
So much for "love your enemies" since these entities and their disciples will do anything to trigger inter-Orthodox schism.
Well, the point is this: if there are primary sources proving that they're right, then they're not trying "to trigger inter-Orthodox schism," but rather trying to safeguard the Church.  OTOH, if they're running on false info, knowingly or unknowingly, then we've got a big problem with some commandments going on (you know, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour).
 

PeterTheAleut

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A Sombra said:
Perhaps since you seem to disagree/doubt so very vehemently any affiliation of former Patriarchates of Constantinople, you could prove that the former Patriarchs of Constantinople mentioned, beginning with Meletios Metaxakis, were not affiliated with Freemasonry.
Since you're essentially placing the past several EPs on trial to face charges of affiliation with Freemasonry, I'm following the guiding principle of criminal trials in the U.S. and presuming the men innocent until you can prove them guilty.  It is not for me to prove their innocence; rather, the onus is on you to prove their guilt.  Now, can you?

Your insistence on primary sources is almost humorous, as the affiliation of Meletios Metaxakis is common knowledge, and I have never seen this affiliation denied anywhere.
Yes, the fact that Patriarch Meletios is accused of affiliation with the Freemasons is common knowledge, but I have yet to see any proof of his guilt.

It is akin to stating that you cannot believe Ronald Reagan was a member of the Republican Party without viewing the "Primary Sources."

Also, please let me know what you would consider to be a "Primary Source" proving that Meletios Metaxakis was a Freemason.
  • Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate, No 2
  • Pythagore-Equerre, Vol. 4, Part 7, 1935

The two sources above would be a good place to start.

Obviously, his signed membership card wouldn't do, now would it? After all, how could you authenticate the signature? I think this is a little game, and no source material would be acceptable to you. If I am mistaken,please do tell.
Try me.  If you provide enough evidence to convince me, I might believe you.

And again-let me know if you can read and understand any Greek "primary sources," and exactly what they must consist of. And, thank you for your kind interest in my post!
 

SolEX01

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cleveland said:
With all the online personalities here, I'm sure someone has to have a friend in Russia who could do it.  Heck, why not just email/call/PM Nektarios and have him look while he's there?
Most Journals publish on-line.  "Orthodoxy or Death" is not likely one of them in Russia or anywhere else.

cleveland said:
Well, the point is this: if there are primary sources proving that they're right, then they're not trying "to trigger inter-Orthodox schism," but rather trying to safeguard the Church.  OTOH, if they're running on false info, knowingly or unknowingly, then we've got a big problem with some commandments going on (you know, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour).
I imagine the legates of Cardinal Humbert felt the same way in 1054, safeguarding the Orthodox Church, when placing the bull of excommunication on the altar and shaking the dust from their shoes after walking out of Haghia Sophia.  I agree with you regarding the commandment to not bear false witness against one's neighbor except these websites are confident that they've made their case and wish for the laity to voice their objections in greater numbers to the canonical "status quo" by leaving "heretical" Churches and flocking to their "Orthodox Church."

Even if there was a shred of truth to masonic or any other accusations, what can realistically happen?
 

A Sombra

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Ah yes, the ubiquitous Peter the Aleut now informs me that I am a criminal on trial! The prosecutorial mindset! How wonderfully charitable!

I find it completely strange that you would consider the Journal of the Moscow Patriachate a "Primary" source considering the affiliation of Meletios Metaxakis with Freemasonry! You certainly have a different view of "primary" sources than I do, apparently. And-if you KNOW which supposed "primary" sources you could accept, why depend upon me to produce them? And you never answered my question-can you read Russian and Greek?


The first time that I saw mention of Meletios Metaxakis affiliation with Freemasonry mentioned was: "The 70th Anniversary of the Pan-Orthodox Congress in Constantinople:  A Major Step on the Path Towards Apostasy" (Part I), by Bishop Photius  of Triaditsa. Part II. This is a lengthy and  scholarly treatise outlining the historical road of Constantinople's fall  to the heresy of ecumenism. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_articles.aspx

Bishop Photios did his research very well. I trust what he says in it. In other words, it is good enough for me, dear Prosecutor. If it is not good enough for you, well, that is your problem, isn't it? It certainly is not mine! And, if you think I an going to conmtinually jump through hoops for you and dig up what you consider "primary" sources-however odd-for everything I post here, you are seriously mistaken. I will mention sources that I trust, and that is as far as it will go. If you want to further your education and investigate on your own, so be it. If you do not, and simply wish to continually repeat imperious demands for "primary" sources-so be it. Whichever you choose to do makes absolutely no difference to me. Whether or not you pronounce your official and blessed imprimatur on what I post also makes no difference to me. As they said in the 60's-do your thing!
 

PeterTheAleut

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A Sombra said:
Ah yes, the ubiquitous Peter the Aleut now informs me that I am a criminal on trial! The prosecutorial mindset! How wonderfully charitable!
Get your facts straight before you launch such half-witted retorts.  Where in the following do you see anything about me placing you on trial?  I spoke only of how you have placed the past several EPs on trial and need to prove your case against them.
PeterTheAleut said:
Since you're essentially placing the past several EPs on trial to face charges of affiliation with Freemasonry, I'm following the guiding principle of criminal trials in the U.S. and presuming the men innocent until you can prove them guilty.  It is not for me to prove their innocence; rather, the onus is on you to prove their guilt.  Now, can you?
I find it completely strange that you would consider the Journal of the Moscow Patriachate a "Primary" source considering the affiliation of Meletios Metaxakis with Freemasonry! You certainly have a different view of "primary" sources than I do, apparently.
The article you quoted from http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/ocet22.htm in Reply #61 above cited this source and another as authoritative primary(?) sources.  I've never read the sources, so I hope you have and can share their contents with us.

And-if you KNOW which supposed "primary" sources you could accept, why depend upon me to produce them?
You are the one pressing charges against the Ecumenical Patriarchate, so it is right that I demand that you produce these sources that verify his guilt.

And you never answered my question-can you read Russian and Greek?
Why does it matter?  We have translators here.

The first time that I saw mention of Meletios Metaxakis affiliation with Freemasonry mentioned was: "The 70th Anniversary of the Pan-Orthodox Congress in Constantinople:  A Major Step on the Path Towards Apostasy" (Part I), by Bishop Photius  of Triaditsa. Part II. This is a lengthy and  scholarly treatise outlining the historical road of Constantinople's fall  to the heresy of ecumenism. http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_articles.aspx

Bishop Photios did his research very well. I trust what he says in it. In other words, it is good enough for me, dear Prosecutor. If it is not good enough for you, well, that is your problem, isn't it? It certainly is not mine!
That is where you are wrong.  For one, I am not the prosecutor; rather, you can call me the EPs' defense attorney and the jury.  That makes ME the one you need to convince.  I don't care if you're convinced if you can't convince ME.

And, if you think I an going to conmtinually jump through hoops for you and dig up what you consider "primary" sources-however odd-for everything I post here, you are seriously mistaken. I will mention sources that I trust, and that is as far as it will go. If you want to further your education and investigate on your own, so be it. If you do not, and simply wish to continually repeat imperious demands for "primary" sources-so be it. Whichever you choose to do makes absolutely no difference to me. Whether or not you pronounce your official and blessed imprimatur on what I post also makes no difference to me. As they said in the 60's-do your thing!
Speaking now in my role as a moderator:  OC.net is not about bearing false witness against anyone, especially a Patriarch of our Church.  To accuse His All-Holiness of being a Freemason is a serious charge, since he can be deposed if the accusations prove true.  If you cannot substantiate your accusations, however, you (and we) could be held responsible for libel.  This is why I've been so insistent that you prove to us that the EP is affiliated with Freemasonry--it's not enough that you believe this personally, you must convince us.  Until you can do this to the satisfaction of myself, another moderator, or one of our admins, any more posts from you regarding the EP's alleged connections to the Masonic Lodge will be automatically rejected.
 

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Hi all,

Can anyone provide any updates as to the more recent happenings at Esphigmenou? There were reports police would storm the monastery before the feast of the Acsension but that's been and gone. Are they still there?

Matthaios
 

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Unfortunately after the strong earthquake (6.5 on the Richter scale) that struck us yesterday evening, the media have turned their attention to the NW Peloponnese
 

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  The coming evictions of the monks of the Holy Monastery of Esphigmenou are not a unique occurrence on Mount Athos. In 1992, the monks at the Skete of the Prophet Elias were evicted at gunpoint, on the orders of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The monks were allowed only minutes to gather whatever possessions they could, taken to Daphne (the port of Mt Athos), put on a boat, and simply dropped off at Ouranopolis with no money, and nowhere to go, and no way to go anywhere. The monks were led by Archimandrite Seraphim (Bobich, originally in the OCA, later joined the Russian Church Abroad), Abbot of the Skete (American), Hieromonk Ioanniki (American), R, Monk Nikolai (Russian-American) and three Russian monks. The eviction was carried out because the monks refused to commemorate the name of Patriarch Bartholomew.
  Now, people can speculate all they want about the whys and wherefores concerning the eviction of the monks from Prophet Elias Skete, and the upcoming eviction from Esphigmenou.  From what I  have seen, most of the speculation is truly speculation in ignorance (no offense meant-but it is the truth!) "well, how can they refuse to commemorate their bishop? don't they deserve it?" And several variations on that theme. Well, Mt Athos is, like most everywhere else in Europe, ruled by law. The Charter of Mount Athos outlines just about everything that could happen and what to do about it! For all who are ready to scream "Guilty!" at the charge of schism or heresy, the Charter also outlines what actions must be taken for these charges to be brought, as well as what actions have to take place for a finding of guilty. So, unless one is an expert on the Charter, all musings about what the monks of Esphigmenou are "guilty" of are merely inane ramblings...
  The proceedings supposed to take place for charges of schism have not taken place-only charges from Constantinople, with the Greek government backing them up at every move. As the monks at Esphigmenou are demed to be "Old Calendarists," it is hardly possible for the Greek government to treat them fairly-is anyone on the Forum aware of the persecutions and martyrdoms of Old Calendarists at the hands of the Greek government? Or are these considered some kind of joke? Perhaps they "deserved" to be martyred, too? The Patriarchate, too, is simply NOT following the Charter of Mt Athos in these proceedings, and the Patriarchate, as well as the Greek government, signed onto the Charter at its inception in 1924.
  The Patriarchate has been accused of phyletism in the past concerning its attempts to throw all monks off Mt Athos except Greeks. While Mount Athos is seen by many Orthodox as something for ALL Orthodox Christians, it is extremely difficult for Slavs, Romanians and Georgians to be accpeted as monks on the Holy Mountain; in the past, it was forbidden ("unofficially," but nevertheless real) for those other than Greeks to become monks on Mount Athos.
  And no matter WHAT the outcome-even if the monks are determined to be "schismatics," human rights have been grossly violated by the Patriarchate with the blocking of mail to Esphigmenou, the blocking of food deliveries, the blocking of medicines-several of the monks are elderly, and have various conditions which require medication. Whose hands would the blopod be on if any of these elderly monks were to die as a result of the illegal cessation of the delivery of medicine and food to the Monastery? Before speculation about whther or not the monks are "schismatic," or whether or not they "deserve it," perhaps speculation about what should happen when the deaths of elderly monks are a result of the illegal orders of a Patriarch. Any of the speculators care to jump out on that one?
 

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Any updates on this story?
 
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