My take on ROAC

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Anastasios,

ROAC itself maintains that some Greek Old Calendarists in the Lamnian Synod have grace. This is impossible for an Orthodox Church to believe that another Orthodox Church not in communion with it has grace unless one is going to come out and say that there is actually communion between them but they are in administrative disunity, which they are not saying. The Church can't be divided.
Putting aside the issue of these things being a process (and no one can be faulted for finding each other in the mess created by the heretics), I find the above very strange, at least coming from you.

"The Church can't be divided" - but I thought you believed the papists have grace-bearing mysteries?

Seraphim
 
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While we're at it, Mr. Reeves, how is it that you are able to be a catechumen when the closest parish to you appears to be in New Jersey? Unless you've e/immigrated of late, this would entail crossing the border for each liturgy.

It's hard for me to imagine that any truly traditional Orthodox would suggest that a correspondence course is the way to be a member of the Church.
The situation is certainly not ideal, but the choice is to be a child of Truth in semi-isolation, or be a worldling, or comprimise and join some heretical body which I know full well is anathema. In such a situation, there is no valid choice but the one I have made.

Seraphim
 

Keble

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Seraphim Reeves said:
While we're at it, Mr. Reeves, how is it that you are able to be a catechumen when the closest parish to you appears to be in New Jersey? Unless you've e/immigrated of late, this would entail crossing the border for each liturgy.

It's hard for me to imagine that any truly traditional Orthodox would suggest that a correspondence course is the way to be a member of the Church.
The situation is certainly not ideal, but the choice is to be a child of Truth in semi-isolation, or be a worldling, or comprimise and join some heretical body which I know full well is anathema. In such a situation, there is no valid choice but the one I have made.
Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.
 
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Serge,

No, I don't know why then-Bishop Valentin broke with the Church Abroad.

ISTM he is a classic vagante (an episcopus vagus) in the medieval sense, intruding in an established see, with no real jurisdiction of his own (at least none recognized by any Orthodox group), taking advantage of pious but ignorant Russians for profit.
Evidence? I at least try to substantiate why the pseudo-Orthodox heirarchs most people here are joined to are either heretics, or wedded to heretics - the same from the "other-side" (even if only in their strikingly a-doctrinal, typically ad-hominem line of attack) would be appreciated.

My churchgoing is irrelevant to my descriptions of Eastern Orthodoxy or other churches (such as ROAC) online. I don't volunteer that information; Joe Zollars, OTOH, has loudly identified himself with this group, so once again (sigh), my questions, while direct, are fair.
This is just facetious on your part. Why not just say outright you're trying to solicit information you yourself would never provide if similarly asked?

That's nice. It's a free country. Just curious, though - not to pry, mind - does that mean soon you'll drop the banner for Nicholas' board from your sig, since, in your judgement, ROCOR is now wrong and possibly even outside the church?
I don't recall the Euprhosnyos Cafe claiming to be a "ROCOR site". There are plenty of people on there, anything from new-calendarists, to ROCOR folks, to ROAC and Old Calendarists. I will say though, it is by far the most "traditionalist" friendly forum (and certainly imho, the most "friendly traditionalist" forum) of it's kind. Hence, why I recommend it to people, and why I have the banner.

Seraphim

P.S. - your thoughts regarding why my ecclessiological rationale for ROAC's existance, and the various issues I've raised in this forum regarding the heresy of ecumenism, would be appreciated; I'd like to be shown by someone here just why I am erring. Lots of mud slinging so far, but precious little in the way of dogmatic considerations (save, by myself.)
 

JoeZollars

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Keble,

For some moving is not an option. keep in mind we are not just dealing with moving from one state to another, but from one Country to another which brings up a whole slew of issues. Also Seraphim has an obligation to the support of his wife, and therefore the loss of a job (which in these troubling times would be almost impossible to replace) could prove damaging.

As for sending a missionary Priest, there are only so many Priests to go around. One solitary catechumen does not a mission make.

Joe Zollars
 

Anastasios

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Seraphim,

ECafe was ROCORcafe for a long time. Most of us still remember it as such, especially when it used to say, "attacks on ROCOR or the Churches in communion with it are not allowed." You're right it's not that way now, but we still remember a time when it was.

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Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.
Actually, a move (when the resources become available) is not entirely out of the question. As it stands now, my wife is trying to get citizenship here; that's strain enough, getting citizenship (and work to meet my familial responsibilities) in the U.S. would be, humanly speaking, impossible right now. However, I do not put anything past God's providence.

As for missionary Priest - if there was some way, I'm sure there would be one here now. I'm willing to give it time, ignoring your typically contrarian response.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.
Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim
 

TomS

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Seraphim Reeves said:


I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim
HaHaHA :eek:

Oooh! Burn!

He gotcha there, Keble! ;D
 

Keble

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Joe, you're making excuses. If it's really this critical, not a single one of these consideration outweighs moving.
 

Keble

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Hey, at least she hasn't been defrocked and isn't running away from some other jurisdiction!

And anyway, she isn't my bishop! ;) ;D :-[
 

Keble

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I've changed my mind-- this calls for a bit of hardball.

Seraphim Reeves said:
The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.
Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...
Well, I'm not going to make any attempt whatsoever to defend Spong; I excommunicated him a decade ago at least.

And as for the Rt. Rev. Catherine Waynick: she's irrelevant here. There's no era in which an Anglican church would support what you're planning to do. The Episcopal Church even has a bishop for the Armed Forces chaplaincies, and other chaplaincies are under ordinary bishops.

To be blunt:you're trying to evade the point. Loose canon bishops and female clergy aren't going to distract from the historical reality that the apostolic standard for Christian life is within a community in which there is weekly worship, preferably Eucharistic worship. The notion of a sort of instant anchorite life is not something for a catechumen to be diving into. That is the actual tradition; accept no schismatic substitutes.
 

JoeZollars

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Keble, you have a good point. however the best must be made out of the situation. If there are no Churches in his vicinity, he must do what he is able.

As for making excuses, it is the duty of the Christian man to care for his family. have you ever stopped to think that perhaps Seraphim has some inpedimetn to moving closer to a ROAC church?

Joe Zollars
 

JoeZollars

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Seraphim Reeves said:
Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.
Actually, a move (when the resources become available) is not entirely out of the question. As it stands now, my wife is trying to get citizenship here; that's strain enough, getting citizenship (and work to meet my familial responsibilities) in the U.S. would be, humanly speaking, impossible right now. However, I do not put anything past God's providence.

As for missionary Priest - if there was some way, I'm sure there would be one here now. I'm willing to give it time, ignoring your typically contrarian response.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.
Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim
Tushe!

and these heretics call ROAC vagante? right......

Joe Zollars
 

Keble

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JoeZollars said:
and these heretics call ROAC vagante? right......
Serge is an Anglican? Since when?

You can complain all you want about Cate Waynick's gender, but one thing she is not is vagante. The diocese over which she has been placed is duly consituted within the Episcopal Church, and her election and consecration were according to the church's constitution and canons.

You can snipe at me all you want, Joe, but it isn't going to change the fact that the relationship you are trying to establish with ROAC is unOrthodox.
 

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It is ORthodox Keble and if you knew the first thing about ROAC you might get that.

And whether or not she is in a "diocese" that is within the episcopalean "church" matters not a fig. Heresy is the same no matter how large or pernicious the organization.

so why do you call our Vladyka vagante? because he preaches the truth and this scares the heck out of you?

Joe Zollars
 

Keble

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JoeZollars said:
It is ORthodox Keble and if you knew the first thing about ROAC you might get that.
Joe, I can read the church fathers. I have been studying the Christian life for longer than you have been alive, and I read Orthodox as well as Anglican, Roman, and Protestant sources. What I can see about the Christian life in all these sources tells me that what you are attempting to do is wrong. And if ROAC is assenting to you doing that, it tells me that they are wrong too.

And whether or not she is in a "diocese" that is within the episcopalean "church" matters not a fig. Heresy is the same no matter how large or pernicious the organization.
All of which is utterly irrelevant.

so why do you call our Vladyka vagante? because he preaches the truth and this scares the heck out of you?
He's not "your" Vladyka, Joe. You are no more Orthodox than I am.

And my wife has watched you flit from group to group over the past months. You've already (perhaps) rebelled against your parents in becoming Catholic, and I see no sign that you ever actually learned what being a Catholic entails. And what it entails-- what any church membership entails, and especially any apostolic church-- is buckling down under the direction of that church and working out your salvation from day to day. It's not about obsessing about organizational purity. Every other apostolic church will tell that, and I'll bet if you were in Staunton and attending the ROAC church there, that's what the priest would expect of you.

Instead, you've settled on a jurisdiction where the nearest priest is 13 hours away, so there's absolutely no chance of him seriously calling you to account, and no chance that you will have to deal with living in the parish community. That's not apostolic, and no real Orthodox bishop, nor any Catholic bishop, nor any Anglican bishop would approve of such an arrangement. IF ROAC is approving of such an arrangement, that's a much bigger error than ecumenism, and it's an error which is going to impede your spiritual life every minute of every hour of every day that you persist in it.
 

carpo-rusyn

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Hello,

I'd be glad to help Joe or Seraphim find a nice RC parish nearby. As far as what being a Catholic entails I could recommend some books.

Come home to Rome. It's always an option.

Carpo-Rusyn
 
H

Hypo-Ortho

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anastasios said:
CR,

Please no Catholic proselytism here on an Orthodox forum.

Thanks,

anastasios
Thanks, anastasios. I was taken aback somewhat by carpatho-rusyn's gall and was about to ask carpie to refrain from doing the very same thing! :eek:

Hypo-Ortho

 
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